The HARDEST Match-Up(s) For Each Character - Block 4: Olimar, Pikachu & Kirby.

[smashkng]

Even without infinites D3 still has advantage. Luigi sucks against long ranged characters, he lacks range and he has abysmal approach.

 

[Denzi]

IC's are definately a harder matchup for Falco then Kirby is.

 

[Coney]

Even without infinites D3 still has advantage. Luigi sucks against long ranged characters, he lacks range and he has abysmal approach.

Advantage sure, but worst matchup? I doubt it.

 

[hippiedude92]

Even without infinites D3 still has advantage. Luigi sucks against long ranged characters, he lacks range and he has abysmal approach.

Without D3's CG infinite, Luigi has far EASIER time against D3. It's like 45:55 D3 or dead even. You can even watch Co18 v Polmex vids from FL, they simply go even since Co18 is purely legit but just simply skilled.

Luigi is like 6/4 against Oli so oli has a hella hard time against him for various reasons. I've already discussed it with Oli boards and agree with it too back in the day.

IMO Luigi's hardest matchup is Marth. Hes hardest matchups are GAW, D3, MK. They relatively are easy if the opponent is like nub to average level lol.

oh and as for luigi and the long ranged and approach thing, he doesnt exactly "suck" he just has a harder time. I don't know if you know luigi's buffering or crawldash mechanics, but these mechanics make a hell of a difference in approach compared to last year's SH double aerials only meta-game lol.

 

[Hive]

Samus: DDD, MK, Falco, Olimar in that order imo (afterwards is Marth and after is Diddy imo) I would say these are more along the lines of her "severe" matchups at highest levels of play.

I think someone said gw in here too... I'd argue against this, samus does fairly well against gw comparitively (maybe 60-40 gw).

DDD is the big one though (no pun intended lol)
cgs that absolutely kills spacing and racks damage
on stage kill percents that don't start until 160+% with dtilt. without DI
standing infinite
a uair and up b that outprioritize dair which makes it extremely rare to land spikes on.
waddle dee spams that can semi keep up with her own spams.
Stage counters that absolutely destroy samus
plus she has to approach within grab range (except when she has a fully charged charge shot ready which is unlikely) to land a ko move

this matchup is just hell

 

[DanGR]

With future changes to the Olimar matchup thread, MK will be his hardest matchup at 65-35 according to the Olimar boards. Peach will be somewhere around 60-40 or 55-45 for Peach and Luigi will stay at around that area too. We've been working on getting the numbers correct the past few days. Check the last page.

 

[Delvro]

Without D3's CG infinite, Luigi has far EASIER time against D3. It's like 45:55 D3 or dead even. You can even watch Co18 v Polmex vids from FL, they simply go even since Co18 is purely legit but just simply skilled.

Luigi is like 6/4 against Oli so oli has a hella hard time against him for various reasons. I've already discussed it with Oli boards and agree with it too back in the day.

IMO Luigi's hardest matchup is Marth. Hes hardest matchups are GAW, D3, MK. They relatively are easy if the opponent is like nub to average level lol.

oh and as for luigi and the long ranged and approach thing, he doesnt exactly "suck" he just has a harder time. I don't know if you know luigi's buffering or crawldash mechanics, but these mechanics make a hell of a difference in approach compared to last year's SH double aerials only meta-game lol.

Marth? I agree Marth is a terrible match for luigi, but it's nothing compared to MK. Luigi can punish Marth's mistakes if he's really patient... with Mk they have to do something really stupid to get punished... not to mention once you're offstage you're toast, even at 50%...

But I agree, it's not DDD, even with the infinite. It's a sucky matchup for sure but it's not luigi's worst.

EDIT: Also I thought Ganon's worst match-up was sheik... like 5-95 sheik's favor or something

 

[Gea]

Well, I see Kos-Mos go even with really good MK's a lot, and he says there is no practicle way for peach to beat a really campy snake, reguardless of skill.

I've been saying this for a long while but very few people agree with it. KOSMOS didn't really until he played Razer if I recall correctly, so I think it takes a decent Snake to knock this into you. The fact that his utilt goes through a perfectly spaced fair of ours pretty much seals the deal.

MAYBE if we had a kill move worth a ****. Oh well. Everyone else is going to say Meta is Peach's hardest matchup because if they know how to nado correctly, our options are really diminished. I don't think meta is THAT bad for Peach and plenty of Metas hate playing against Peach because he has to know what he's doing or he's going to find it alot harder than he's used to.

GW is probably more threatening to Peach though than Meta, imo. Dying at really low %s to one mistake is a pain. You know how well GW can gay it up against Peach, Hylian.

So that's my list for her.

Snake, GW, Meta, Falco(?)

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm lol-ing at GaW, MK, and Snake being Sonic's hardest matchups.

Marth is more difficult than GaW for Sonic, and Snake's nowhere near as difficult as those two.

Marth is probably Sonic's hardest match up.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why are people putting MK down as Ike's third hardest match-up, just out of curiosity?

It goes Olimar, Falco, D3 for top three. After that you can argue if it's Lucario or MK for 4th hardest, but neither are those two are 3-7 Ds, which the other three are (with the exception of Pirate Ship, where Olimar and D3 become a LOT easeier, and Falco is some what easier. But smart people will ban that stage against Ike anyways)

 

[ZettaKuma]

Gravity > Bowser

 

[ShadowLink84]

I'm lol-ing at GaW, MK, and Snake being Sonic's hardest matchups.

Marth is more difficult than GaW for Sonic, and Snake's nowhere near as difficult as those two.

Marth is probably Sonic's hardest match up.

How?
Marth's tool is to space an Sonic is rather difficult to space due to his incredible speed and mobility.

It isnt as if he can wall of SOnic, or go offensive against Sonic without risk.

G&W on the other hand is a righteous pain. Very hard to punish even if he does improperly space thgs because his moves stay out for so long and end in a short amount of time.
PLus he has KO power that Marth does not have.

 

[Pez55]

I disagree with Snake being Kirby's worst matchup. I feel like there are harder matchups for Kirby

 

[Xebenkeck]

Kinda funny how Marth shuts down like half the cast, but he gets shut down only by MK, the one who matters most.

 

[Hylian]

I'm lol-ing at GaW, MK, and Snake being Sonic's hardest matchups.

Marth is more difficult than GaW for Sonic, and Snake's nowhere near as difficult as those two.

Marth is probably Sonic's hardest match up.

Espy, you just 2-0'ed Roy_R in tournament. The last 3 or 4 times we have played in tournament I have won every time. I won 2-1 at Whobo, 3-1 at Gamelot, and 2-0 at hobo16 against you. I think Roy_R is better then me, and most GW's just don't understand the match-up with sonic.

GW and Marth do similar, but GW can set-up better walls, can punish Sonics spindash better OOS because of his up-b, can recover better against sonic...I think GW is slightly harder for sonic is then marth is honestly.

 

[Talonzz]

ROB's worst matchup is ZSS actually

 

[Fatmanonice]

For Mario, I'd personally say Mr. Game and Watch or Metaknight as opposed to King Dedede. I'm fully aware of the infinite but I don't think Mario's completely screwed against him as opposed to the other two. King Dedede's a lot easier to juggle, Mario has more options against him if Dedede's in the air and offstage, and, unlike the other two I mentioned, King Dedede doesn't turn Mario's gimping game to crap. Regarding the grab, unlike Bowser or DK, Mario has at least some options to avoid the grab (like caping, FLUDD, and camping with fireballs) and even his B up can save him if the Dedede screws up the timing.

For Game and Watch, all of his aerials outprioritizes Mario's, the bucket gets rid of using fireballs, there's very few good follow ups out of grabs against Game and Watch thanks to bair and dair, and the little bugger is among one of the hardest characters for Mario to edgeguard/gimp thanks to Game and Watch's recovery being "resistant" to the cape and allowing control even if you hit him with the FLUDD. Mario also has close to no options if he gets juggled by Game and Watch's uair.

For Metaknight, I might as well just say the tornado and dair because those are probably the biggest issues. The only attack of Mario's that stops the tornado is his dair and it's only if you hit at the very top and Metaknight's dair is way too easy to use to gimp Mario with. It should go without saying that Metaknight's off stage game absolutely wrecks Mario too and is pretty much an easy stock loss if the Metaknight is familar with the match up.

 

[:mad:]

Well, FMOI.
Keep in mind, an infinite is a losing matchup. So it's an impossible to win without player error on the Dedede's side. And besides that, Mario gets tooled by D3 regardless. He outranges us, outgimps us, and can Dedecide to take a game. There's much more than just that, but Mario's severely outdone by the king.

 

[Brinzy]

let youself get damage and you can't be zero to deathed anymore. Thats what I do against Gallax's pika. Also pika's grab range is silly there is no reason you should be grabbed in that match up.

If 0 to death chain grabs makes match ups bad then ICs should be everyones worst match up. Obviously that is not the case.

This basically means use Zelda -> take some damage -> go Sheik -> take some more damage, because really, if a Pikachu has you in the damage range that they need to do the CG and they really want to do it, I don't see what's holding him. You can't throw needles and jump away forever.

The lack of grab range is one of the worst things to say about not getting grabbed. If this is the case, why does Sheik get ***** by the ICs? Why does she also get ***** by Pikachu? Those are two different characters with short grab ranges, yet I see them getting grabs and doing bad **** to their opponents.

Also, I wish everyone would quit with the whole, "Well if 0-death is the thing that makes match-ups bad, then ICs this this and that." You can do so many things to the ICs to make them not 0-death you, and really, the good ICs may not be focused on just 0-deathing you but other things as well (not to mention how some places ban that stuff). Sheik isn't getting 0-deathed here, as far as I know, but honestly, what can you do to make Pikachu not do this to you as Sheik? All you can do is go Zelda, take the damage, and go Sheik and risk taking even more damage or a possible alternate setup for a CG.

And besides, I don't see how you can go, "Oh, I take damage against this person so the CG doesn't work" and then turn around and say, "You shouldn't get grabbed in this match-up." That's nonsensical; either you're taking damage for no reason, or you're getting grabbed despite what you just said.

 

[CO18]

Ice climbers are not dedede's worst matchup. Pikachu/Falco/Olimar are all worse.

 

[Excellence]

At some point, people need to stop looking at the very best examples of players because that begins to obscure match-ups and place too much emphasis on skill.

Co18 does haha and wins

Lol, no he doesn't. I'd be really shocked and sacred if he was reall winning. 0_o

Ah, yes, the mighty Excellence. Such a known top player that he can say his opinion on match-ups is fact, and he even believes this himself.

Oh, right, so you're that jack *** people keep talking about. You know, the one who refused to play a 10yr old kid but kept nagging about how much better than him he was in his ear only to get completely ***** and make excuses about it. Yeah, you're someone to listen to. Credibility denied.

NEW LIST

Meta Knight: Snake/Diddy Kong
Snake: King Dedede
Falco: Ice Climbers
King Dedede: Olimar
Game and Watch: Snake
Marth: Snake
Diddy Kong: Falco
Wario: Marth
R.O.B.: Meta Knight
Lucario: King Dedede
Olimar: Meta Knight
Pikachu: Marth
Kirby: Marth
Donkey Kong: King Dedede
Ice Climbers: Meta Knight
Zero Suit Samus: Falco
Toon Link: Meta Knight
Pit: Meta Knight
Peach: Meta Knight
Wolf: King Dedede
Luigi: King Dedede
Zelda: Mr. Game & Watch
Bowser: King Dedede with the infinity, Diddy Kong without.
Fox: Shiek
Sheik: Ice Climbers
Ike: Olimar
Mario: King Dedede
Lucas: Game and Watch
Ness: Marth
Samus: King Dedede
Sonic: Mr. Game & Watch
Squirtle: Marth
Charizard: Marth
Ivysaur: Meta Knight
Yoshi: I still have no idea.
Link: Olimar
Jigglypuff: Mr. Game & Watch
Ganondorf: Olimar
Captain Falcon: Pikachu/Metaknight

 

[PK-ow!]

No.

Ganondorf's hardest matchup is ICs. Any mistake = grab = 0-death = repeat. End of story. Ask the boards yourself.

Also GaW isn't on your new list.

Cool project.

 

[CO18]

I own lolimar Excellence.

Falco and pikachu are harder imo

 

[ShadowLink84]

No.

Ganondorf's hardest matchup is ICs. Any mistake = grab = 0-death = repeat. End of story. Ask the boards yourself.

Also GaW isn't on your new list.

Cool project.

Revise that, the statement can go for any character.

 

[Bellioes]

Falco is definitely not Diddys hardest matchup. Most of the people onthe Diddy boards agree that its between Marth and Luigi.
Also, Ness and Lucas all get inifinited by Marth so he should be their hardest matchup.
I believe Ganons hardest matchup is Sheik. He gets Ftilt comboed like crazy and is easily gimped by needles.
And why is Falcos hardest the ICs. Id say its more G&W or MK.
Id say Falco should be D3 hardest and ROBs hardest should be ZSS.
Shouldnt Foxs hardest be Pika because of the 100%+ combo.
And squirtles I think is Yoshi cause of his CG to spike.

 

[CO18]

Falco is definitely not Diddys hardest matchup. Most of the people onthe Diddy boards agree that its between Marth and Luigi.
Also, Ness and Lucas all get inifinited by Marth so he should be their hardest matchup.
I believe Ganons hardest matchup is Sheik. He gets Ftilt comboed like crazy and is easily gimped by needles.
And why is Falcos hardest the ICs. Id say its more G&W or MK.
Shouldnt Falco be D3 hardest too and ROBs hardest should be ZSS.
Shouldnt Foxs hardest be Pika because of the 100%+ combo.
And squirtles I think is Yoshi cause of his CG to spike.

Yeah, Luigi or Marth is diddy's worst.

IC's are falcos worst matchup though defnitley not gaw or mk lol. IC's do pretty well vs mk and I doubt gaw is any worse than 6:4, ics put the hurt on falco.

Falco could possibly be d3's worst matchup still cant decide between him or pikachu.

 

[Jupz]

Imo Falco is worse then Pika, but thats just my opinion

 

[Curaga]

MK is not Sonic's worst MU.

That would be G&W or Marth.

I say Marth is harder.

MK is not Sonic's hardest match up.

I'd say Pikachu is the hardest o_o; idk!

 

[Coney]

From all the DDDs I've talked to, the progression of DDD's worst matchups go, in order...

Pikachu, Olimar, IC's, Falco.

All four are difficult, but Falco is by far the worst.

 

[CO18]

Falco cant kill for anything and you can find patterns in the camping and just predict the side bs and he cant edgeguard d3.

Pikachu can actually kill and his camping is extremely safe as well as being able to edgeguard and not getting his recovery punished pretty easily like falco. And I think his cg goes up to 90 now

 

[MRTW113]

Shoot, got beat out to point out the Zelda one >.>

 

[smashkng]

At some point, people need to stop looking at the very best examples of players because that begins to obscure match-ups and place too much emphasis on skill.



Lol, no he doesn't. I'd be really shocked and sacred if he was reall winning. 0_o




Oh, right, so you're that jack *** people keep talking about. You know, the one who refused to play a 10yr old kid but kept nagging about how much better than him he was in his ear only to get completely ***** and make excuses about it. Yeah, you're someone to listen to. Credibility denied.

NEW LIST

Meta Knight: Snake/Diddy Kong

Wario and Donkey Kong are also an even matchup like Snake and Diddy.

 

[Zero]

I'd like to point out that ZSS' worst matchup is Falco, unanimously agreed on by most of the ZSS boards, not Marth as listed.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Falco cant kill for anything and you can find patterns in the camping and just predict the side bs and he cant edgeguard d3.

Pikachu can actually kill and his camping is extremely safe as well as being able to edgeguard and not getting his recovery punished pretty easily like falco. And I think his cg goes up to 90 now

pikachu needs to start his cgs at very specific percentages. so you can inhale a lot of his grab attempts. his camping is also much less effective when your waddle dees are used well and pikachus only decent kill setup is (insert stupid attack here) to thunder. whose effectiveness is severely limited when you learn how to deal with it properly. not to mention that blank attack to thunder is a pretty crappy setup to begin with. which leaves him with trying to punish mistakes with random smashes/nair

Falco on the other hand in real life situations will probably kill D3 before pikachu would. he can also CG at any % up to 40 as i remember. meat shields are also almost entirely ineffective when it comes to stoping falcos spam. lasers that can also set up for kill moves.

falco really shouldnt be having his side b read like that, but i dont really care either way, cause imo it doesnt matter all that much.

that is how i see the two matchups. i see falco as clearly harder. but thats just me take it for what you will.

I actually got CPd to norfair by a pikachu and picked D3 for the match.
everyone looked at me like i was crazy but i won...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'd like to point out that ZSS' worst matchup is Falco, unanimously agreed on by most of the ZSS boards, not Marth as listed.

Yeah man Marth is actually an even match-up, heh.

 

[xDD-Master]

OP IS UPDATED !

After all I divide the discussion now into several weeks. 3 Characters per week; except week 1 (MK should be clear...) and week 11 (Pokemon Trainer = 3 characters ).

WEEK 1: MK, Snake, Falco & DDD !!!

My opinion:
-----------------
WEEK 1
MK : MK
Snake : DDD
Falco : ICs
DDD : Olimar
-----------------

 

[Nic64]

MK : Snake/Diddy
Snake: Olimar/DDD
Falco: IC's
DDD: Pikachu/Falco

IMO...too many ties there for me =(

 

[Garnet]

Falco does bad against most characters that are small because it's harder to camp with lasers. So, by my knowledge, his worst matchups would be IC, and GaW. Kirby and pikachu are bad but they don't fully counter him. I'm not sure why IC is worse a matchup for Falco than GaW. Since GaW's arials beat falco's(unless it's dair) plus he can gimp Falco more easily than IC.

IC can spam blizzard against the phantasm but GaW has fast and good arials that pretty much beat Falco's.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

MK : Snake
Snake: Olimar
Falco: GaW
DDD: Falco

Imo, though I'm not sure about snake =/

 

[Nic64]

Falco does bad against most characters that are small because it's harder to camp with lasers. So, by my knowledge, his worst matchups would be IC, and GaW. Kirby and pikachu are bad but they don't fully counter him. I'm not sure why IC is worse a matchup for Falco than GaW. Since GaW's arials beat falco's(unless it's dair) plus he can gimp Falco more easily than IC.

IC can spam blizzard against the phantasm but GaW has fast and good arials that pretty much beat Falco's.

Kirby and Pikachu are both worse than GAW, and probably Marth too. Pikachu in addition to being a fast small target, also chain grabs falco to 100%, that's almost as bad for falco as the IC's chain grab and pikachu is a better character than the IC's otherwise as well. GAW actually isn't amazing against falco, he counters him, but he's not the worst. I think it's definitely IC's or Pikachu.