The HARDEST Match-Up(s) For Each Character - Block 4: Olimar, Pikachu & Kirby.

[xDD-Master]

-----------------
Block 1
MK : MK
Snake : MK / DDD / Olimar
Falco : ICs
DDD : Falco
-----------------
Block 2
Gaw : Snake / Marth
Marth : MK
Diddy : Marth / Peach / Luigi
-----------------
Block 3
Wario :
ROB :
Lucario :
-----------------
Block 4
Olimar :
Pikachu :
Kirby :
-----------------
Block 5
DK :
ICs :
ZSS :
-----------------
Block 6
Tink :
Pit :
Peach :
-----------------
Block 7
Wolf :
Luigi :
Zelda :
-----------------
Block 8
Bowser :
Fox :
Sheik :
-----------------
Block 9
Ike :
Mario :
Lucas :
-----------------
Block 10
Ness :
Samus :
Sonic :
-----------------
Block 11
Pokemon Trainer:
Squirtle :
Ivysaur :
Charizard :
-----------------
Block 12
Yoshi :
Link :
Jiggs :
-----------------
Block 13
Ganon :
CF :
-----------------

If tie then they are ordered by their tier rank (Old Tier List)


Old List --- Updated - 17/05/09

MK : MK

Snake : DDD / Olimar

Falco : ICs / Pikachu

DDD : Falco / Pikachu / Olimar / ICs

Gaw : MK / Snake

Marth : MK

Diddy : Luigi / Marth / Peach

Wario : Marth / DDD

ROB : MK / ZSS

Lucario : Marth / DDD

Olimar : MK / Peach / ICs / Luigi

Pikachu : Marth / Diddy

Kirby : Snake

DK : DDD

ICs : Snake

ZSS : Falco

Tink : MK

Pit : MK / Gaw

Peach : MK

Wolf : DDD

Luigi : DDD / MK

Zelda : Gaw

Bowser : DDD / Diddy

Fox : Pikachu / Sheik

Sheik : Pikachu / ICs

Ike : Olimar / DDD

Mario : DDD

Lucas : Marth / Gaw

Ness : Marth

Samus : DDD

Sonic : Marth

PT : Marth / MK

Yoshi : Marth

Link : MK

Jiggs : Gaw

Ganon : Sheik / ICs

CF : Snake / MK

 

[Kinzer]

MK is not Sonic's worst MU.

That would be G&W or Marth.

I say Marth is harder.

 

[Nic64]

Pretty sure snake is harder for GAW than marth. Falco is ZSS' worst matchup. ZSS is arguably ROBs worst matchup now that she infinites him. IC's are harder for falco I think than kirby. I think peach is hardest for olimar, also pretty sure MK is better against pit than GAW.

 

[Palpi]

D3 is harder for lucario than MK or atleast the same and Marth.

 

[Hitman JT]

Olimar's hardest match up is Peach not MK. And Falcon's hardest match up is Donkey Kong IMO

 

[.AC.]

ics are lis worst matchup imo,or peach.pika is falco´s worst matchup,or ics.falco is BY FAR ddd´s worst matchup.snake is gnw worst matchup.d3 is lucarios worst matchup.falco is also by far zss´s worst matchup.nice idea and list,although it seems you put mk for eworst matchup on some chars who dont have him as his worst matcup.

 

[xDD-Master]

MK is not Sonic's worst MU.

That would be G&W or Marth.

I say Marth is harder.

Why ? (I dont know the MUs of the Lows that good)

D3 is harder for lucario than MK or atleast the same and Marth.

Could be :S

Pretty sure snake is harder for GAW than marth.

Snake kills him very easy. Well... I wasnt sure about this one.

Falco is ZSS' worst matchup.

Why ? Reflector ?

ZSS is arguably ROBs worst matchup now that she infinites him..

Yeah I know I wasnt sure about this one... the infinit is very predictable and I'm not sure about how much it can be DIed or something.

IC's are harder for falco I think than kirby.

Spam / Camp Lasers ???

I think peach is hardest for olimar.

I dont think so... Why ? (Reasons are always good )

Also pretty sure MK is better against pit than GAW.

Could be... anyway give reasons...

Olimar's hardest match up is Peach not MK.

What does Peach has over Olimar ?

And Falcon's hardest match up is Donkey Kong IMO

LOL why ^^ ?

MK ***** CF like nothing xD

ics are lis worst matchup imo,or peach.

li xD ?

pika is falco´s worst matchup,or ics.

Pika because the CG... but IC o_O

falco is BY FAR ddd´s worst matchup.

Yeah could be... Laser > All ?

snake is gnw worst matchup.

Somewhere above.

d3 is lucarios worst matchup

So why ?

falco is also by far zss´s worst matchup.

... x)

nice idea and list,although it seems you put mk for eworst matchup on some chars who dont have him as his worst matcup.

I cant know everything

 

[Gea]

Peach boards normally disagree about hardest matchup pretty heavily >.>

 

[z5kaento5z]

I thought Pikachu's hardest matchup was Marth.

 

[TLMSheikant]

ZSS's hardest matchup is falco not marth. :S Kirby's hardest is GaW not snake. Luc's worst matchup is DDD for obvious reasons. *facepalm*

 

[Darxmarth23]

I see more MKs, Marths, D3s, and Gaw...

 

[Red Arremer]

MK : Bowser
Lucario : Dedede
ROB : Zero Suit Samus
Olimar : Peach
Bowser : Dedede with Infinite, Diddy without Infinite

Corrections made~

Yeah I know I wasnt sure about this one... the infinit is very predictable and I'm not sure about how much it can be DIed or something.

It's an INFINITE. Have you ever heard of escapable Infinites?

What does Peach has over Olimar ?

Her Side B slaughters his Pikmin.

 

[Kinzer]

What about ICs, Spade?

Also I would tell you why Marth/G&W are betetr contenders for Sonic-counter, but I'm at school right now, so you'll either have to take my word for it, or somebody will have to cover for me.

Or you can take a look on the board and find out for yourself why MK is really one of Sonic's better/best MUs compared to the whole roster.

 

[Red Arremer]

What about ICs, Spade?

Depends. Bowser is a special case because his worst matchup really is dependant on the tournament rules regarding Infinite CGs.

If all Infinites are allowed, Dedede is his worst matchup (despite it being not a real infinite on Bowser).
If Dedede's Infinite isn't allowed, but the Ice Climbers', then the Ice Climbers are his worst matchup.
If no Infinites are allowed, Diddy is his worst matchup.

 

[Brinzy]

Zelda's hardest fight is G&W, not Olimar. You probably got Olimar from their board.

I am pretty sure every Zelda will agree that G&W is hardest, or at least harder than Olimar. He is incredibly safe on block against her, forces her to approach, and kills her incredibly early.

"But so does Olimar!"

Olimar is not as hard to kill, does not punish Din's use nearly as badly as G&W, and can be spotdodged a lot easier than G&W.

 

[Gea]

Peach does not win against Oli because of Peach bomber, LOL. Its because his options are really shut down by floating at the correct height and dair. Peach bomber is just a great way to approach fairly safely and go through a few things. Her and ICs shut down nearly all of Olimar's game.

Also no one has proven Bowser to be MK's hardest matchup as far as I know.

Edit: If you want to argue that infinites = worst matchup then ICs would be contenders for every spot. They aren't because there are ways around them. *cough cough*

 

[Red Arremer]

Also no one has proven Bowser to be MK's hardest matchup as far as I know.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233635

Edit: If you want to argue that infinites = worst matchup then ICs would be contenders for every spot. They aren't because there are ways around them. *cough cough*

Bowser is easy to grab because of his huge size and his lack of disjointed hitboxes.

 

[bludhoundz]

It's debated which matchup is Diddy's hardest.

It's either Luigi, Peach or Marth.

 

[Nic64]

it's really too soon to be saying that bowser is an MK counter, his infinite was just discovered and its practicality is still unknown, if you had to use another character instead of the ditto I think snake, IC's, diddy, or wario are good picks.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Spam / Camp Lasers ???

Doesn't really work. The lasers don't hamper ICs approach at all, Blizzard mocks phantasam, and a predicted phantasam is death. And even SoPo has a CG to like 50% on him. He is terrible against ICs.

Also, More Snake being best against GaW.

 

[Brinzy]

Edit: If you want to argue that infinites = worst matchup then ICs would be contenders for every spot. They aren't because there are ways around them. *cough cough*

An infinite from DDD, ZSS, and whomever else is not the same thing as an infinite from the ICs.

- You can kill Nana
- Depending on the character, you may have an easier time separating them
- Stage CPs for infinites are most effective against them because it usually just involves making it harder for them to stay together, while other characters can fight normally and not have to worry about some other character
- Difficulty (yes, it actually matters when you compare DDD's d-throw to the ICs)


The only significant thing is that the ICs can potentially do it to everyone, but one screw-up could be all it takes to get rid of a potential inifinite for that stock. The others have it 100% of the time.

 

[Gea]

An infinite from DDD, ZSS, and whomever else is not the same thing as an infinite from the ICs.

- You can kill Nana
- Depending on the character, you may have an easier time separating them
- Stage CPs for infinites are most effective against them because it usually just involves making it harder for them to stay together, while other characters can fight normally and not have to worry about some other character
- Difficulty (yes, it actually matters when you compare DDD's d-throw to the ICs)


The only significant thing is that the ICs can potentially do it to everyone, but one screw-up could be all it takes to get rid of a potential inifinite for that stock. The others have it 100% of the time.

No, I'm talking about trying to grab MK with Bowser, lol. MK can camp all he wants. It is very possibly for an MK to "not get grabbed." Same with Wario. Silly kids.

 

[Brinzy]

What does the part I quoted have to do with what you're saying now? Show me the correlation, silly man.

 

[Red Arremer]

No, I'm talking about trying to grab MK with Bowser, lol. MK can camp all he wants. It is very possibly for an MK to "not get grabbed." Same with Wario. Silly kids.

It doesn't make Bowser a hard matchup for Meta Knight, but skews it slightly into Bowser's favor. Noone ever said that Bowser has a huge advantage now, when we only say he has a slight advantage.

And it's also not only the Infinite of Bowser that makes this matchup. Keep this in mind, please.

 

[cubaisdeath]

WOOOOW this thread is biased as ****. ok, let me point out the errors, along with explanation.

falco's worst matchup is ICs because he can't separate them easy, and laser camping/sideb spam doesn't quite get the job done. one mis spaced aerial and its a possible 02D chaingrab.

Marth's worst matchup is snake. now, I'm probably going to get flamed for this one, but MK isn't nearly as hard as you think. at least marth has grab release combos on MK. snake can just camp marth with grenades, and if marth gets close just shield the sword dance and get blown up. there is rarely a chance that marth can hit snake without trading with a grenade. also if marth mis spaces an aerial, thats an instant 20% from a snake ftilt. also, marth is extremely easy to edge guard as snake. all he has to do is get marth off stage, and shoot a few usmashes at the edge, and edgehog. it either edgehogs the marth, or he gets free damage from the usmashes, usually putting marth offstage again with no jump, thus leading to a predictable and punishable recovery.

wario's worst matchup is NOT marth, nowhere close. Marth has a hard time against wario, so how could it be his worst matchup? DDD destroys wario with CG's and grab release bair/utilt/usmash. 3-4 grabs across FD is a stock for the wario. the best advice for wario in this matchup is pray for smashville or something with a mobile surface that you can easily air camp on.

when it comes to lucario I think it boils down to personal matchups for the lucario player itself. MK is very hard, but Marth is harder IMO. Marth can outspace every single one of lucario's moves, as well as punish his recovery easily. even from the player side of things, I had much harder times against lucario as metaknight than I did as marth.

IMO I think Olimar's worst is peach, but MK is also tough so I'll let that one slide.

ZSS worst matchup is falco by far. laser camping and side b spam doesn't let ZSS even get close to him, plus he can CG to dair for a free stock. he only has to worry about items for the first stock, which he can easily reflect or toss off stage.

Pit's worst is MK. ever hear of tornado? Pit can't answer that at all. As an MK main, trust me, I know lol.

I think that both Ness and Lucas don't even matter, just pick Marth, PT, or anyone else that can grab release infinite them lol. Anyone can disrupt their recovery, not just G&W

Sonic's worst is Lucario. Have you ever played that matchup? Basically, all that happens is Sonic runs around trying to get damage, and when its finally time for him to land his kill move, lucario is already at 130% or over, this making him almost as powerful as possible. Sonic already has enough trouble trying to hit lucario, and when lucario takes sonic's first stock, one "combo" can do an easy 30% or more, while sonic still tries his hardest to land one bair or fsmash.



thats all I have time for now, if my post doesn't make sense in parts, I was rushed, and I will edit it later =)

 

[Brinzy]

I would actually say that PT is probably Ness's worst fight, but there's still G&W.

 

[Gea]

It doesn't make Bowser a hard matchup for Meta Knight, but skews it slightly into Bowser's favor. Noone ever said that Bowser has a huge advantage now, when we only say he has a slight advantage.

Super smash theory is NOT real Brawl. PROVE IT WITH TOURNAMENT RESULTS, son. Otherwise you are assuming the matchup is in Bowser's favor because of something recently discovered. I'm all for this being MKs hardest matchup AFTER IT IS PROVEN but before proof this is just you plugging your own topic/discovery/idea.

 

[Kinzer]

Lucario?

Nah, I find him as one of those surprise characters, but once you get it done it's not so bad. I would know since I happen to fight this decent one a lot.

Who else can SG Lucario's FSmash? Who else-

Actually I G2G, school johns.

 

[Red Arremer]

Super smash theory is NOT real Brawl. PROVE IT WITH TOURNAMENT RESULTS, son. Otherwise you are assuming the matchup is in Bowser's favor because of something recently discovered. I'm all for this being MKs hardest matchup AFTER IT IS PROVEN but before proof this is just you plugging your own topic/discovery/idea.

I'm mainly plugging it to get more people interested into Bowser, lulz. JK. We're 100% certain it works.

But yea, it's a new discovery and has to be used in a tournament yet. I hope we can get a few matches recorded soon with this. Also, don't call me son, I'm older than you, kid.

 

[cutter]

I am going to argue that G&W's worst matchup is MK.

For starters, MK has an up B that easily overrides G&W's approaches (it's better than Marth's up B), has better tilts than Marth with more range, and is much harder to punish consistently than Marth. Marth also can potentially be edgeguarded due to his average recovery; it is consequently much harder to gimp a smart MK.

Marth is bad for G&W, but not as bad as MK. There's a reason you almost never see G&W do really well in singles tournaments and a lot of it has to do with G&W having an uphill battle against so many MKs.

Basically, MK is a strictly better version of Marth.

 

[Brinzy]

I agree with cutter.

But I love MK for wiping out G&Ws >_>

 

[Tarmogoyf]

wario's worst matchup is NOT marth, nowhere close. Marth has a hard time against wario, so how could it be his worst matchup? DDD destroys wario with CG's and grab release bair/utilt/usmash. 3-4 grabs across FD is a stock for the wario. the best advice for wario in this matchup is pray for smashville or something with a mobile surface that you can easily air camp on.

Care to explain how Marth is bad against Wario? I'll explain D3 K?

D3 is never going to be on FD against Wario, because it will be banned immedeatly. Wario pretty much wins if he gets a percent lead, because D3 han no viable means of stopping aircamping, and no you don't need a platform to do that, it just makes it easier. The CGs are bad for Wario, but even with them, it's even unless you are on FD, because D3 has a hard time setting up the kill without the CG, while wario can Uair the hell out of him, or waft, or get an Fsmash if the D3 can't make it to the ledge. And D3 will never win against Wario on his Counterpick. Overall 50/50.

 

[luke_atyeo]

just out of curiousity, what makes luigi diddys worst matchup?

 

[.AC.]

Care to explain how Marth is bad against Wario? I'll explain D3 K?

D3 is never going to be on FD against Wario, because it will be banned immedeatly. Wario pretty much wins if he gets a percent lead, because D3 han no viable means of stopping aircamping, and no you don't need a platform to do that, it just makes it easier. The CGs are bad for Wario, but even with them, it's even unless you are on FD, because D3 has a hard time setting up the kill without the CG, while wario can Uair the hell out of him, or waft, or get an Fsmash if the D3 can't make it to the ledge. And D3 will never win against Wario on his Counterpick. Overall 50/50.

d3 can stop air camping with bair,wario has no reliable killing moves except waft(wich takes time) and uair and fsmash wich can get punished if missed.

btw at post above me:luigi is a bad matchup for diidy because he slides too far when hit by bananas which is a pretty big part off diddy´s game.

 

[Inui]

Do my opinions matter? This is all based on all of my experiences playing against and watching the best players of all of these characters, and what the top players say, like what Hylian and UTD Zac say about Game and Watch vs Snake, and what ADHD says about Diddy vs Luigi, etc. I listed multiple characters if I think they all wreck/win against the same character evenly. I'll bold the one I'd pick if I had to choose.

Meta Knight: Snake/Diddy Kong
Snake: King Dedede
Falco: Mr. Game and Watch/Ice Climbers
King Dedede: Falco
Game and Watch: Snake
Marth: Meta Knight
Diddy Kong: Luigi
Wario: Marth/Meta Knight/King Dedede
R.O.B.: Meta Knight
Lucario: King Dedede/Marth
Olimar: Meta Knight/Marth
Pikachu: Marth
Kirby: Snake/Meta Knight
Donkey Kong: King Dedede
Ice Climbers: Snake
Zero Suit Samus: Falco
Toon Link: Meta Knight
Pit: Snake
Peach: Meta Knight
Wolf: King Dedede
Luigi: King Dedede
Zelda: Olimar
Bowser: King Dedede
Fox: Pikachu/Sheik
Shiek: Pikachu/Ice Climbers
Ike: Olimar/King Dedede/Meta Knight
Mario: Marth/King Dedede
Lucas: Marth/Game and Watch/Olimar
Ness: Game and Watch/Falco/Olimar/Meta Knight/Marth/Dedede
Samus: King Dedede/Game and Watch/Falco/Marth/Meta Knight
Sonic: Wario/Marth/Olimar
Pokemon Trainer: Marth/King Dedede
Yoshi: Snake/Pit/King Dedede
Link: Falco/King Dedede/Marth/Meta Knight
Jigglypuff: Game and Watch/Snake/Meta Knight
Ganondorf: Ice Climbers/Falco/Sheik/Marth/King Dedede/Meta Knight
Captain Falcon: Marth/Falco/King Dedede/Meta Knight

 

[|RK|]

MK ain't Lucario's hardest matchup. It's either Dedede or Marth.

 

[ANTi_]

*** outtaa hereeee Olimar > King DDD

 

[SuSa]

lol DeDeDe for Snake.

Lolimar is 10 times harder, he just has to grab and outcamp.

Link - Falco.... 1 grab and you're pretty much dead, the laser+reflector can stop our spam game. Harder then MK, who's just gimp happy. (IMO)

For Falco - IC's. Falco just can't KO <_< he gets grabbed out of everything.......... and he's very easy to CG for me (and others I know) IC's is my main Failco CP.




(Am I the ONLY Olimar that can beat Peach or something? It's an extremely easy matchup if you -don't- camp....I may have to help them with this matchup or something, they're probably doing it wrong. lol)

 

[brinboy789]

MK: bowser, snake

tyvm

 

[Inui]

lol DeDeDe for Snake.

Lolimar is 10 times harder, he just has to grab and outcamp.

Snake kills Olimar from a d-throw, lol. Snake does fine.

I am going to argue that G&W's worst matchup is MK.

I think every good GaW main says it's Snake, dude. I definitely agree because I always beat them with Snake.