goodoldganon
Smash Champion
I want to fix Sonic's momentum as much as the next guy, but I believe Bowsers tilts are the most important thing to fit into our coding right now, and as you know we are packed.
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The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April
- Thread starter Almas
- Start date
- Status
Shadic
Alakadoof?
I love how Ganondorf's Murder Choke works now. It's a GREAT suicide move.
Also, ROB's Spin is hilarious now. And I think it has more of a use.
Also, ROB's Spin is hilarious now. And I think it has more of a use.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
My biggest gripe is that it's a side effect that nobody wanted, and there's not even any sort of effort to fix it. I've been talking about this ever since v10, but nobody has even said that they're working on it!
We fixed the triple jump glitch, but we can't fix something that was caused by a code we implemented?
It's actually bad for Sonic. As in, it actually hurts his gameplay. It's a side effect of a code we made and it hurts a character, so why is everyone so adamantly against fixing it?! Because some characters benefit from the bug it's okay to ignore those who were hurt by it?
Jiangjunizzy
Smash Lord
i had this issue with zero suit samus' hitlag issue, and there hasn't been any initiative to discuss/do anything about that either.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
I believe an electric hitlag code is on the agenda
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Note how I never mentioned Sonic once in my post. I only mentioned two characters that I enjoy the code with.
trojanpooh
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2007
- Messages
- 1,183
I was is sky world as Samus. I jumped did a dair and about a second after, it froze. I don't think my actions were relevant so I may be wrong about what I did, but thats how I remember it.
And to the guy with Goofy as his pick, don't worry about it I would have done the same if I hadn't read another thread about taking down old videos from youtube for our integrity
SketchHurricane
Smash Ace
Yes, I think it's high time we addressed both Sonic and ZSS. Fixing unintentional nerfs to these characters holds just as much importance as intentional buffs to Bowser.
:034:
Smash Hero
I found something else in the PAL version of the codeset, there seems to something wrong with the buffering for certain characters.
Lemme explain, I usually do lagless aerials by rolling my thumb from Y to A. This works in B+ with characters like Wolf (for his fair). But apparently, it doesn't seem to work for Ganondorf (in particular, his dair or thunderstorm). I'm not sure which one is supposed to be 'right' but all I know is that there is an important inconsistency here.
Lemme explain, I usually do lagless aerials by rolling my thumb from Y to A. This works in B+ with characters like Wolf (for his fair). But apparently, it doesn't seem to work for Ganondorf (in particular, his dair or thunderstorm). I'm not sure which one is supposed to be 'right' but all I know is that there is an important inconsistency here.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
It's the buffer, just turn the buffer code off or make it higher.
CT Chia
Smash Obsessed
nooooooooo!!!!
please keep sonic as is. the new momentum for him is perfect, ESPECIALLY for his B moves. that was one of the first things I noticed with the extreme boost you get with jumping from a spindash. this doesnt flat out get rid of combos like some people are saying. sure it changes some, but it opens up plenty of new possibilities that makes him a better character.
the momentum with b moves makes him a much better character. the old jump (in and out of b moves) in vB made him feel pretty slow for someone who should be the fastest character no doubt lol. the ground momentum is already awesome, but the b moves puts him even beyond that considering its a spindash, which is supposed to make sonic faster.
you can mindgame the crap out of people now with edgehogging, edgeguarding and attacking etc. i love being like 75% across FD while my opponent is recovering, they think im not doing anything, and then in an instant i spindash jump across the whole stage and grab the ledge for a easy hog.
being able to get places faster makes sonic a tech chasing beast, and GREATLY enhances his edgeguard game. spindash jumping off the stage gets him VERY far out there to keep his opponents off without wasting his second jump, which he can use to get back. plz trust me on this. he's just not the exact same character anymore. similar, but definitely better now with new options unique to himself that no other character has.
please keep sonic as is. the new momentum for him is perfect, ESPECIALLY for his B moves. that was one of the first things I noticed with the extreme boost you get with jumping from a spindash. this doesnt flat out get rid of combos like some people are saying. sure it changes some, but it opens up plenty of new possibilities that makes him a better character.
the momentum with b moves makes him a much better character. the old jump (in and out of b moves) in vB made him feel pretty slow for someone who should be the fastest character no doubt lol. the ground momentum is already awesome, but the b moves puts him even beyond that considering its a spindash, which is supposed to make sonic faster.
you can mindgame the crap out of people now with edgehogging, edgeguarding and attacking etc. i love being like 75% across FD while my opponent is recovering, they think im not doing anything, and then in an instant i spindash jump across the whole stage and grab the ledge for a easy hog.
being able to get places faster makes sonic a tech chasing beast, and GREATLY enhances his edgeguard game. spindash jumping off the stage gets him VERY far out there to keep his opponents off without wasting his second jump, which he can use to get back. plz trust me on this. he's just not the exact same character anymore. similar, but definitely better now with new options unique to himself that no other character has.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
Chibo, do you main sonic? Do you realize that pretty much everything you stated about him being "better" because of spindash momentum can be done exactly the same with just a regular running jump? His spindash lost a ton of its practicality because of the momentum.
SSJ5Goku8932
Smash Lord
What about Shieks Ftilt and Squirtles Up tilt. Or has it been fixed already.
Eaode
Smash Champion
Squirtle's Utilt isn't bad at all. it'll hit a couple times yeah, but you can just DI out of it. I just use Utilt a couple times at low % to setup something like a Grab (->Fthrow -> Fairs) or Uair if you utilt tem at mid-high %
SketchHurricane
Smash Ace
watch the first two stocks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phb3GGMi7os
Dunno if it's still like this in B+, but I imagine it is...
shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
Eaode
Smash Champion
hot ****. I haven't noticed anything like this because i usually stop the Utilt b/c it seems like it's about to stop working. I'm like 80% sure that his uptilt knocks ppl down past like 30% or something in B+ (akin to DDD's not-anymore chainthrow), but I'll have to check.
~PK~
Smash Cadet
Also, something needs to be done about Lucas's dash grab. It's still as slow as ever. I think it should be sped up just a tad. Yoshi's, too.
The Utilt lock is still present but works slightly differently.
The move itself can't be chained for as long (you are sent farther because of the removal of stale moves and because hitstun sends you into a tumble earlier), but you can end the lock with virtually any move, so can usually easily land another 2-3 hits as a combo.
Depending on how you look at it, this is either good or bad.
The move itself can't be chained for as long (you are sent farther because of the removal of stale moves and because hitstun sends you into a tumble earlier), but you can end the lock with virtually any move, so can usually easily land another 2-3 hits as a combo.
Depending on how you look at it, this is either good or bad.
Eaode
Smash Champion
having to combo differently halfway through is a lot better than a straight lock to 70+
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Do you want me to debate Sonic with you, because I can debate Sonic with you.
Here we go.
I think what you're forgetting is that even Sonic's fair (one of his fastest aerials and what I assume you cancel his spindash jump with) has a lot of lag and telegraphs exactly what you're trying to do, while also giving the opponent a lot of time to prepare for your next move on reaction to the fair. Meanwhile dash jumping leaves Sonic in a neutral state the entire time, allowing Sonic more flexibility in his movements (during any point you can decide that you suddenly want to suddenly stop your momentum with a dair, up B, homing attack, or second jump, or you can just keep going and do a quick fair, or fast fall and turn around with a side B and bair, or whatever.) With the spindash jump you have to wait until your aerial is over before you can take any useful actions, making it overall an inferior form a movement. Meanwhile, the old version of spindash jump (specifically what I want back), makes spindash roll a much better punishing option (since it will chain into spindash jump and chain into aerials), especially against characters who like to make walls against Sonic (since spindash is fast enough to get between the hits of pretty much every wall).
Sonic does like momentum on his run because they make him better at pursuing opponents and comboing them, as well as netting him safer approaches. He doesn't like momentum on his B moves, because it makes them less useful for comboing while providing no benefits that are not already provided by his dash jump momentum, or simply running or doing a normal spindash jump.
Q.E.D.
Here we go.
Everything except his B moves is perfect. Explained below.
The only way to continue any combos with fair or uair is to use your second jump to cancel your momentum. This takes away your ability to follow up afterwards, and makes it extremely easy to escape any further comboing by simply DIing away from Sonic (since Sonic no longer has the option of chasing you vertically with a second jump, or horizontally with a spinshot, since he doesn't have his second jump). It also makes fair and uair less reliable at lower percentages, as you are required to jump in order to not go past your oppponent, but this also means that you cannot hit with these if the spindash jump doesn't send them high enough (which with it's more horizontal knockback it won't unless you hit them with the top of it's hitbox)
No, momentum in general makes him a much better character. It's not his B moves.
The jump out of B moves functions exactly the same, it's the attack cancel that functions differently, meaning you only get the momentum if you cancel with an attack (other than dair) and the attack will not chain from the spindash specifically because of that momentum.
Spindash is faster. It's even faster than his run. But if you cancel it, you're supposed to go slower, as the act of canceling it is entirely for control purposes, not for speed. You slow down when you cancel it so that the attack that you canceled it with chains correctly. It's no different than how we made Sonic not get 100% dash momentum in his jump. We lowered his speed because the higher speed prevented his moves from functioning well.
You can already do that. Just run or instant spinshot. (use down B and flick sideways on the c-stick, while still holding down) Or don't cancel the spindash jump.
Tech chasing is mostly done with shorthops out of a dash (or just plain dashing). Spin dash jumping goes way to high and takes way too long after canceling (since none of his aerials have less ending lag than a tech.) to be useful for tech-chasing against opponents with even half a brain. For edgeguarding you could just dash jump or spindash jump without canceling.
I think what you're forgetting is that even Sonic's fair (one of his fastest aerials and what I assume you cancel his spindash jump with) has a lot of lag and telegraphs exactly what you're trying to do, while also giving the opponent a lot of time to prepare for your next move on reaction to the fair. Meanwhile dash jumping leaves Sonic in a neutral state the entire time, allowing Sonic more flexibility in his movements (during any point you can decide that you suddenly want to suddenly stop your momentum with a dair, up B, homing attack, or second jump, or you can just keep going and do a quick fair, or fast fall and turn around with a side B and bair, or whatever.) With the spindash jump you have to wait until your aerial is over before you can take any useful actions, making it overall an inferior form a movement. Meanwhile, the old version of spindash jump (specifically what I want back), makes spindash roll a much better punishing option (since it will chain into spindash jump and chain into aerials), especially against characters who like to make walls against Sonic (since spindash is fast enough to get between the hits of pretty much every wall).
Sonic does like momentum on his run because they make him better at pursuing opponents and comboing them, as well as netting him safer approaches. He doesn't like momentum on his B moves, because it makes them less useful for comboing while providing no benefits that are not already provided by his dash jump momentum, or simply running or doing a normal spindash jump.
Q.E.D.
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
Have you considered writing your Dissertation on sonic DS? 
HAR HAR HAR
On the squirtle u-tilt non-sense: A few characters still have 'combos' like that. Some as extreme, some not so much. Sadly, I feel the number is too high and that's just the nature of the beast. Tilt combos aren't the most exciting things to watch, but proper DI can beat them.
HAR HAR HAR
On the squirtle u-tilt non-sense: A few characters still have 'combos' like that. Some as extreme, some not so much. Sadly, I feel the number is too high and that's just the nature of the beast. Tilt combos aren't the most exciting things to watch, but proper DI can beat them.
Christopher Rodriguez
The illest Project M Bowser
<3
I just want to randomly say thanks to everyone who's contributed to all this. I seriously enjoy playing this codeset (brawl+ in general aswell) and I see some huge potential. There still seems to be a long ways to go with character buffs/nerfs but time fixes everything. Good luck with all this stuff ;D
I just want to randomly say thanks to everyone who's contributed to all this. I seriously enjoy playing this codeset (brawl+ in general aswell) and I see some huge potential. There still seems to be a long ways to go with character buffs/nerfs but time fixes everything. Good luck with all this stuff ;D
Ulevo
Smash Master
We're glad you enjoy it. Stick around and help contribute if you like. The more the merrier.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
....maybe. Though really, most of this is common knowledge to the good Sonic players in vBrawl (Espy, MalcomX, Da Kid... and various people who frequent the Sonic boards)
A lot of people simply don't know these things because they don't read the Sonic board's stickies. I guess I have more knowledge of Sonic in general than most Sonic players, but I had a really hard time applying it in vBrawl because I simply did not enjoy playing defensively (which is what Sonic pretty much had to do). Punishing things is great, but when all you get for that punishment is one low damage hit and a slightly better position, it's really frustrating (especially since other characters get more out of their punishments and some have very strong walls)
That's why I like Sonic so much in brawl+. I get to play aggressively, while still being able to punish more mistakes than any character, and I actually get some sort of follow up from that punishment (though still not as much per mistake). That and I get to finally argue against the stereotypes that Sonic has and actually be listened to (Sonic players are ignored so much on the other boards, no matter how much sense some of their posts make).
A lot of people simply don't know these things because they don't read the Sonic board's stickies. I guess I have more knowledge of Sonic in general than most Sonic players, but I had a really hard time applying it in vBrawl because I simply did not enjoy playing defensively (which is what Sonic pretty much had to do). Punishing things is great, but when all you get for that punishment is one low damage hit and a slightly better position, it's really frustrating (especially since other characters get more out of their punishments and some have very strong walls)
That's why I like Sonic so much in brawl+. I get to play aggressively, while still being able to punish more mistakes than any character, and I actually get some sort of follow up from that punishment (though still not as much per mistake). That and I get to finally argue against the stereotypes that Sonic has and actually be listened to (Sonic players are ignored so much on the other boards, no matter how much sense some of their posts make).
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
I firmly believe that auto sweet spotting needs to be in the game. It too badly nerfs Pits up+b, and Rob's up+b.
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
^^Learn to sweetspot. Pit's up B can still grab the ledge as long as you're not rising (as can Rob's). Rob can also cover himself with uair while still going up.
For Pit you should just glide to recover, but if you have to up B, slow down when you get to the ledge (so that you stop rising and can grab it). If it completely breaks Pit, we will fix him.
For Pit you should just glide to recover, but if you have to up B, slow down when you get to the ledge (so that you stop rising and can grab it). If it completely breaks Pit, we will fix him.
Rreally? I thought you could cancel ROBs right before he goes over the ledge and get the ledgegrab? Anyways, I doubt Pit really needs ASL, but if he can get another shot at his UpB, that'd be good.
Edit: Beaten lol
CloneHat
Smash Champion
^^I don't think so. Pits up B is more than many characters' recovery with jumps! I haven't tried him in B+, though, so maybe all the edge guarding messes him up.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
In B+ pit is nerfed pretty bad. His recovery desperately needs auto sweet spot.
Ulevo
Smash Master
That would exempt him from being edge guarded from the stage. I feel allowing Pit to reuse his Wings of Icarus again after being hit would be a more useful addition.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
How 'bout only twice or something, so he's kind of like ROB. Otherwise, he would be completely impossible to gimp.
kupo15
Smash Hero
This doesn't break him at all. He has 3 mid jumps, a glide and a free flying up b. If you get gimped way out in the stage frequently, then you are a terrible pit. Period. The only thing he could use would be to get the up b back
Not at all really. If you up b next to the ledge, you auto sweet spot to the ledge and the grab range I believe is extended a little plus you get wind energy..yay! Also, 90% of the time if you up b under the stage, you get gimped and its your fault for being put in there. But, thanks to easier teching, you can hug the wall and wall tech up to safety.
Pits recovery is fine. Getting his up b back will help and is all he needs (and maybe speeding up his bow x2
ahahahahahahaha
No. He has wing fatigue. It won't last long enough to even make it to the ledge the second time you use it unless you wait a little bit which puts you in a bad position. This can also make edge guarding pit fun to toy around with
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Pit can also usually fly over the opponent when recovering, so I think this is unnecessary. 4 jumps and a ridiculous up B is enough for me!
I do not main Pit, so I may be wrong, but from experience I find it really annoying to edgeguard him in a match.
I do not main Pit, so I may be wrong, but from experience I find it really annoying to edgeguard him in a match.
IMO, he doesn't really need to get WoI back. Three jumps and an excellent glide is more than enough. His recovery's just not stupid good. Look at it this way: He could have a recovery like Ivysaur's.
kupo15
Smash Hero
True but I would like to see what depth wing fatigue brings to the table. That feature is so useless its sad
Ulevo
Smash Master
Hey, with the buff Razor Leaf received, Ivysaur is decent at recovery now.
D
Deleted member
Guest
IMO, ROB could use a gimp in his Up+B, I mean, If he's not dead, he can come back to the stage, regardless of where he is. Maybe he shouldn't snap to the ledge at all while in Up+B.
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