The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[cAm8ooo]

Your argument isnt very sound. Auto-sweetspots is like saying "oh here you go, you got knocked off the stage but dont worry, it wont take much skill to get back because were basically gonna do it for you and make your opponent have to go off stage to even attempt to guard you"

 

[Problem2]

It makes coming back to the edge too safe. You can get just below the edge and use up-b, and your opponent cannot do anything about it. If they ledge hog, you pass them and get on stage. If they stand on stage, you can grab the ledge.

That is why most people dislike auto-sweetspot.

 

[CountKaiser]

It forces people to aim their Up-B so that it ends right at the edge, or some place below it since the sweetspots on ledges is huge in brawl. This prevents people from just Up-Bing willy nilly and not getting punished for it.

It also removes planking. If you don't know what that is, watch this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IzXR3W-f2I

 

[Revven]

Yet a good majority of the characters in the game don't need to stay on the stage to edgeguard. Your argument isn't very sound.

The ASL in Brawl added 0 skill to getting back to the stage. Why should we be rewarding someone who got knocked off stage when it was their fault in the first place? ASL slows the game down and makes ledgestalling REALLY good. There is nothing good about ASL other than rewarding players for playing bad/getting put into that situation. It also just so happens to make edgeguarding better, which wasn't so good in vBrawl.

It's not going to be gotten rid of (NASL), we already decided it was going to be staying from day 1 since the code released.

 

[Adetque]

Then please, fix things like G&W's d-tilt.

 

[Ulevo]

Yet a good majority of the characters in the game don't need to stay on the stage to edgeguard. Your argument isn't very sound.

Most of the characters recover too efficiently in Brawl, making edge guarding characters like R.O.B., Meta Knight and Dedede very difficult because of the sweet spot function. It almost guarantees their safety back to the stage, and there is little to no skill involved in ensuring that. In order to prevent these characters from returning, you need to go off stage to prevent their return, and that puts the edge guarder at a disadvantage. Explain to me why the player who is returning back to the stage, which is supposed to be one of the most disadvantageous positions in Smash, should have the advantage?

It also allows for planking. His argument is quite sound.

 

[Revven]

Then please, fix things like G&W's d-tilt.

We are going to, we know of all these problems all of you guys keep repeating. We have to tackle things one at a time, especially considering we only have two freakin' lines left to do anything with atm. When we get a modified version of Gecko OS, THAT'S when we will do ****. Right now, we can't do much with two lines, and everybody in this thread should realize that before posting and saying that we need to change stuff and stuff.

 

[kackamee]

IMO: Falco's recovery should be longer, (Up-B) Falcon's UpB feels ALOT shorter.

 

[Ulevo]

We are going to, we know of all these problems all of you guys keep repeating. We have to tackle things one at a time, especially considering we only have two freakin' lines left to do anything with atm. When we get a modified version of Gecko OS, THAT'S when we will do ****. Right now, we can't do much with two lines, and everybody in this thread should realize that before posting and saying that we need to change stuff and stuff.

I don't even see a problem with G&W Dtilt. It edge guards well. So what? You can still time it so you sweet spot by accurately using your jump/Up B to the apex. It just means you need to think about what you're doing, or be more cautious. It also helps if you DI and don't get in to these circumstances in the first place.

 

[Blad01]

A lot of these codes are added because people were used to Melee.

Example :

There is nothing good about ASL other than rewarding players for playing bad/getting put into that situation

Forget Melee (and 64) for a second... If you do so, counting on ASP, a part of brawl, is not "playing bad" but rather "playing well". Getting put into that situation is dangerous in Brawl, but it doesn't guarantee a kill indeed. Only a kill move at high % guanratess a kill.

Also :

Your argument isnt very sound. Auto-sweetspots is like saying "oh here you go, you got knocked off the stage but dont worry, it wont take much skill to get back because were basically gonna do it for you and make your opponent have to go off stage to even attempt to guard you"

He doesn't need an arugument, he's playing normal Brawl. You (B+ fans and makers) DO need very solid arguments though, as you decide to change the initial game...

 

[cAm8ooo]

He doesnt need an argument to voice why he thinks it should go back to normal? That doesnt even make sense. If he cant have a good argument as to why it should go back to the way it was then obviously its a stupid idea to listen to him.

If you want something changed then come up with a valid, good argument that makes sense and causes people to realize that they were wrong.

 

[MK26]

He doesnt need an argument to voice why he thinks it should go back to normal? That doesnt even make sense. If he cant have a good argument as to why it should go back to the way it was then obviously its a stupid idea to listen to him.

If you want something changed then come up with a valid, good argument that makes sense and causes people to realize that they were wrong.

Blad does have a point tho...the burden of the proof is on the person who wants to change the tactic - in this case the Brawl+ community. If something was put into the game, there needs to be a justification for it (I'm assuming that the reason is that it kills planking)

 

[Blad01]

He doesnt need an argument to voice why he thinks it should go back to normal? That doesnt even make sense. If he cant have a good argument as to why it should go back to the way it was then obviously its a stupid idea to listen to him.

If you want something changed then come up with a valid, good argument that makes sense and causes people to realize that they were wrong.

LOL, you're the guys who change the game in the first place. so YOU need an argument in the first place.

It's pretty obvious XD

You should even indicate next to each code why (and not only 2 words) you added it. What does that add to the game ? Does that balance the game more (seing that B+ goal is to balance more the game ?) ? How ? Does that add technical skill (B+ aims for that too ?) ?


PS : I'm only here because I'm interested in the B+ project, don't think I just want to show my logic skills XD
But to be a recognized version of the game, B+ needs a very solid logic for sure.

 

[Revven]

A lot of these codes are added because people were used to Melee.

Example :


Forget Melee (and 64) for a second... If you do so, counting on ASP, a part of brawl, is not "playing bad" but rather "playing well". Getting put into that situation is dangerous in Brawl, but it doesn't guarantee a kill indeed. Only a kill move at high % guanratess a kill.

So you're saying that because I got knocked off, I'm playing well? That's just supporting my argument that it rewards the player for doing nothing good for himself/herself and getting put into that situation because he/she made a bad move. It shouldn't reward the player, at all, for getting knocked off, plain and simple. As that's exactly what ASL promotes. It promotes ledgestalling, it promotes playing bad, and it nerfs the edge game to a point where you as the edgeguarder have to sit by the edge and wait for your opponent to get back onto the stage so you can kill them with one of your onstage KO moves. And, we all know how that goes, it slows the game down marginally.

The point is, it removes options and buffs things unnecessarily. It is easy to get back onto the stage in Brawl+, you just have to work harder to get into the habit of doing it. ASL is a terrible mechanic and I can't understand why you would want it when there way many more cons to it than there are pros (only pros I see are "OMGZ EAZY RECOVERIESSSS!!!" and keeps some recoveries from sucking even though most of the cast does just fine with NASL).

 

[Problem2]

I think nerfing ledge stalling, which is a big and largely debated issue in vBrawl is quite the argument. I mean, even the current champion of vBrawl greatly apposes this tactic.

But speaking about being low on code space earlier. If we are low on line space, maybe we should start considering removing codes that are not important or do not greatly affect game play such as "no airdodge during tumble" and dash canceling.

 

[trojanpooh]

you clearly don't enjoy Brawl+, so why do you care?

Also, what bug free codeset is everyone using?

Which one is dash canceling, if its the one I'm thinking of I'm pretty sure its important. Stage freezes should go first

 

[cAm8ooo]

@blad-We do have an argument. We told it. If you dont like it then you have to argue back. Thats how debates work. If you dont like something and you dont argue for it then your not accomplishing anything. Just saying, "oh you didnt argue good enough" isnt making me think your position is any better.

If you dont have an argument as to why you think auto-sweetspots should be back then i guess theres no point in us even discussing it.

 

[CountKaiser]

Ya know, NASL also doesn't guarantee a kill, but it still puts the defender in a bad situation, a situation that was severely lessened in severity in vBrawl due to ASL.

Counting on ASL is playing bad because the game is doing what you should be doing for you. It's basically a handicap. This is nonsensical because getting back onto the ledge should not be so easy. It should require some form of thought and mindgaming, and should always put you at an inherent disadvantage.

The planking video I showed demonstrates how ASL not only makes the edge safe, but it makes it the safest place in the game. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Also, in regards to G&W's dtilt, why do you wish to nerf it? So it's good for edgeguarding, so what? So are several other moves. If you ar put into a situation where the dtilt could screw you over, that is your fault.

 

[trojanpooh]

It is pretty spamable. Maybe some ending lag wouldn't hurt, but I don't think G+W needs any nerfs as hes not MK

 

[Ulevo]

A lot of these codes are added because people were used to Melee.

Most of these codes were added (from both Smash 64 and Melee) for the specific purpose of improving Brawl, not to cater to the personal preferences of previous Melee players. If that had been the case, Wavedashing would obviously be in here.

Example :


Forget Melee (and 64) for a second... If you do so, counting on ASP, a part of brawl, is not "playing bad" but rather "playing well".

You're correct. Playing to win is a part of playing well, and abusing a function in a game in order to do so is such as that. However, this does not change the fact that it is a poorly implemented function in a game that revolves around knocking your opponent off stage. It gives little to no reward to the player who successfully knocks the opponent off stage, and provides too many options to the defender. It also promotes planking. Those are reasons enough to remove it.

Getting put into that situation is dangerous in Brawl, but it doesn't guarantee a kill indeed. Only a kill move at high % guanratess a kill.

It doesn't matter what it guarantees. It is a poorly implemented system, and promotes planking, which is a completely overpowered tactic.

Also :



He doesn't need an arugument, he's playing normal Brawl. You (B+ fans and makers) DO need very solid arguments though, as you decide to change the initial game...

We've given you a solid argument. We have no need to bear proof upon deaf ears.

 

[Problem2]

Although I'm a fan of Brawl+, I'm going to flip sides here for a second and say that I don't personally believe that everything we add in is solely for the benefit of Brawl+. The new tumble codes for example just replicate Melee even more and just prevent something that wasn't impossible or unfair to deal with in the first place. In fact, I believe that giving the defender the option to airdodge creates more options and situations because it can be baited and then punished.

I understand that everyone wants Brawl+ to be an improvement, but most changes are made to make it more like Melee, and the majority of player deny it because we decided that the wavedashing code was really really bad. The reason we kept BAD is because:

- wavedashing was real good with everyone and made everyone play more the same
- some moves and tactics became too dominant without BAD
- Some Podcast discussion about it came up and told us not to use MAD **
- It serves as publicity and a scapegoat for players to say that we are not trying to recreate Melee.

**Probably the biggest reason.

 

[cAm8ooo]

We do make the game more like melee. We also make it more like 64. We also try to keep the same feel and taste of brawl. We also add brand new elements to the game that makes it even more unique.

To deny the game is more like melee is wrong. But also to deny the fact that all of these other things are in the game is also wrong. Brawl+ is a Brand NEW game and acts like it. Just because we have adopted things from other smash games does not mean we are tryin to recreate them.

 

[matt4300]

@_@ **** that turned into a 2 page debate lol...

Those in favor of the ALS: just turn it off in your code set... There is no way in hell that we are going to go back to it after 5 or so months of it makeing the game so much better. No one in the brawl + broom is in favor of going back, and whether you, me or anyone eles in this thread likes it or not; they make all the decisions. So good luck with this argument...

 

[Ulevo]

Although I'm a fan of Brawl+, I'm going to flip sides here for a second and say that I don't personally believe that everything we add in is solely for the benefit of Brawl+. The new tumble codes for example just replicate Melee even more and just prevent something that wasn't impossible or unfair to deal with in the first place. In fact, I believe that giving the defender the option to airdodge creates more options and situations because it can be baited and then punished.

The point of Brawl Plus is to make an improvement upon the original game, not to simply fix what is currently imbalanced. If the tumble code improves Brawl Plus, then I see no reason why it shouldn't be implemented (whether or not it in fact does improve Brawl Plus is another debate, and it is currently undecided if its inclusion will even happen). The fact that an aspect of Melee is part of Brawl Plus is simply because it helps to improve on the games design, not because we are attempting to make another Melee. It just so happens Melee was fantastic game, and it would be otherwise foolish to not use it's advantages as a fighter in the Smash series at our disposal.

I understand that everyone wants Brawl+ to be an improvement, but most changes are made to make it more like Melee, and the majority of player deny it because we decided that the wavedashing code was really really bad.

You're wrong.

Just because the inclusion of a specific code that was in Melee is used to improve the game does not mean that we are attempting to make Brawl Plus like Melee. That is merely a side effect to the actions we choose to make in order to fulfill the goal of making Brawl Plus an improvement from the original.

If it was in Smash 64, and it improves Brawl Plus, we will add it.

If it was in Melee, and it improves Brawl Plus, we will add it.

If it was in Brawl, and it improves Brawl Plus, we will sustain it.

If it threatens the competitive aspects or balance, or serves to decrease the overall value of Brawl Plus, we will remove it.

The origin of coding is completely irrelevant to what it is we wish to achieve. And our goal is not Melee 2.0

 

[Blad01]

So you're saying that because I got knocked off, I'm playing well? That's just supporting my argument that it rewards the player for doing nothing good for himself/herself and getting put into that situation because he/she made a bad move. It shouldn't reward the player, at all, for getting knocked off, plain and simple. As that's exactly what ASL promotes. It promotes ledgestalling, it promotes playing bad, and it nerfs the edge game to a point where you as the edgeguarder have to sit by the edge and wait for your opponent to get back onto the stage so you can kill them with one of your onstage KO moves. And, we all know how that goes, it slows the game down marginally.

The point is, it removes options and buffs things unnecessarily. It is easy to get back onto the stage in Brawl+, you just have to work harder to get into the habit of doing it. ASL is a terrible mechanic and I can't understand why you would want it when there way many more cons to it than there are pros (only pros I see are "OMGZ EAZY RECOVERIESSSS!!!" and keeps some recoveries from sucking even though most of the cast does just fine with NASL).

ASP doesn't "reward" the player from being knocked ôO And you don't have to sit on the stage and wait your opponent to come back ôo
In brawl, if you knock someone off-stage, if you're a decent player (and if your opponent isn't largely better than you), you should at least give some %, or even gimp the player trying to get back.
The only characters that are sure to come back without much problems are MK, ROB, Pit... Not even Kirby or Jigglypuff. But... They also come back in B+, don't they ?

Removing ASP is just punishing the player who gets knocked off more heavily. I don't see why you should do that ? How does that balance the game more ? How does that fulfil a B+'s goal (*Is that correct ? XD My Enlish is not that good...*).

you clearly don't enjoy Brawl+, so why do you care?

PS : I'm only here because I'm interested in the B+ project, don't think I just want to show my logic skills XD
But to be a recognized version of the game, B+ needs a very solid logic for sure.

Ya know, NASL also doesn't guarantee a kill, but it still puts the defender in a bad situation, a situation that was severely lessened in severity in vBrawl due to ASL.

Counting on ASL is playing bad because the game is doing what you should be doing for you. It's basically a handicap. This is nonsensical because getting back onto the ledge should not be so easy. It should require some form of thought and mindgaming, and should always put you at an inherent disadvantage.

The planking video I showed demonstrates how ASL not only makes the edge safe, but it makes it the safest place in the game. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Why ? In Brawl is wasn't meant to be that hard, even if it's still a hard position...

Removing planking is a good argument though, since it's overpowered in some situations...
I haven't watch the vid yet, but the ledge is only the best place in the stage for characters like MK and some others, isn't it ?

We've given you a solid argument. We have no need to bear proof upon deaf ears.

The solid argument is removing planking, and when I wrote what you quote, I had not seen it yet.

Is there a way to make the (Non Auto) Ledge Sweetspot less ankward ? It seems that there is little to no animation

 

[Problem2]

can I get an example of 64 codes and Brawl Plus aspects that we have purposely kept?

 

[Melomaniacal]

Gecko stopped working for me today. Just freezes on the Gecko screen, the menu options don't show up. I tried reinstalling it. Any help?

 

[Revven]

Gecko stopped working for me today. Just freezes on the Gecko screen, the menu options don't show up. I tried reinstalling it. Any help?

Remove GCN memory cards. Problem solved.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Blad does have a point tho...the burden of the proof is on the person who wants to change the tactic - in this case the Brawl+ community. If something was put into the game, there needs to be a justification for it (I'm assuming that the reason is that it kills planking)

We have given plenty of reasons and arguments. When the code came out we even gave plenty of reasonings. We have given arguments, he argued that he didnt have to argue back lol

Also, this next podcast is gonna explain why codes are in the game. If there is anything cloudy or if anyone doesnt know why something is in the game they'll get a chance to listen to it again then.

 

[Blad01]

We have given plenty of reasons and arguments. When the code came out we even gave plenty of reasonings. We have given arguments, he argued that he didnt have to argue back lol

Also, this next podcast is gonna explain why codes are in the game. If there is anything cloudy or if anyone doesnt know why something is in the game they'll get a chance to listen to it again then.

And you could also add a "Why this code was added in B+" next to each code Or create a thread specially for this purpose ^^
This would be more simple, clear than a podcast, but I may be biased, since it's easier reading english than listening for it

 

[CountKaiser]

can I get an example of 64 codes and Brawl Plus aspects that we have purposely kept?

NASL was in 64, I believe, as was DD.

We kept the BAD over HAD and MAD.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Remove GCN memory cards. Problem solved.

Yeah, you wish it were that easy and I was that dumb. I've been using Brawl+ for quite some time now, mind you
No GCN memory cards are in. I'll try rehacking the whole thing.

 

[Problem2]

NASL was in 64, I believe, as was DD.

We kept the BAD over HAD and MAD.

NASL and DD was in Melee too. What was unique to 64 that we are returning?

I brought up that we kept BAD over MAD. Is there any other example?

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Yeah, you wish it were that easy and I was that dumb. I've been using Brawl+ for quite some time now, mind you
No GCN memory cards are in. I'll try rehacking the whole thing.

sometimes geckOS will be fussy. just exporting the gct multiple times, try running regular brawl before hand, power cycle, etc.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Why did you remove the fresh bonus from moves? Won't that cause matches to last longer

Was it the cause for matches freezing?

 

[GHNeko]

NASL and DD was in Melee too. What was unique to 64 that we are returning?

I brought up that we kept BAD over MAD. Is there any other example?

By that logic, NASL and DD was kept by Melee, so really, we're keeping tradition that started in 64.

 

[Revven]

Why did you the fresh bonus from moves? Won't that cause matches to last longer?

No, it won't. The reason why we removed Fresh Bonus is because it can occur at any time and mess up a combo, KO sooner than expected, or even just in general get in the way.

 

[CloneHat]

About the ledge invincibility, I think it's good that it stops planking and it causes me no problems, except that it sometimes catches me off guard when I think I'm safe.

 

[Dark Sonic]

NASL and DD was in Melee too. What was unique to 64 that we are returning?

I brought up that we kept BAD over MAD. Is there any other example?

64 has no exclusive techs, except for Z-canceling which is completely broken.

Happy now?

 

[leafgreen386]

64 has no exclusive techs, except for Z-canceling which is completely broken.

Happy now?

Taunt canceling.

=p