The Brawlplusery - Brawl+ Codeset - Updated 3rd April

[leafgreen386]

I never minded the hitlag, it feels smooth for me.
This discussion is relating to the Achilles Heel of Brawl+.

Everyone bear in mind that no game is perfect and Brawl+ is no exception, changes in stuff like this this late in development is origins of power creeps.
Accept it as is, because it'll never be perfect for everyone.
If anything--if possible--Increase DIing properties.

People need to stop crying about power creep, already. We're not going to give every character 0-death combos and whatever. We're aiming for a specific level of power (about melee falcon good). If characters start getting better than that, they will get nerfed. We won't just all of a sudden start buffing everyone to match the "new" bar set by another character. We're not stupid. Notice how we're nerfing metaknight right now? We're not buffing everyone up to his level, since that would make for a broken game. Until you start seeing us peal off the buffs from mk because he's fallen to mid-tier, you really need to take a chill pill and cool it.

 

[Roxas215]

People need to stop crying about power creep, already. We're not going to give every character 0-death combos and whatever. We're aiming for a specific level of power (about melee falcon good). If characters start getting better than that, they will get nerfed. We won't just all of a sudden start buffing everyone to match the "new" bar set by another character. We're not stupid. Notice how we're nerfing metaknight right now? We're not buffing everyone up to his level, since that would make for a broken game. Until you start seeing us peal off the buffs from mk because he's fallen to mid-tier, you really need to take a chill pill and cool it.

I agree however mk should never be at midtier. MK should still be the best char in the game. We just need to nerf the brokeness about him.

 

[Sukai]

A power creep is something that bites you in the *** when it's too late. If it was noticeably preventable, then I'm sure it wouldn't be a concerning issue in competitive games.
Even if you don't like it, you still must be aware of it.

 

[Greenpoe]

Can anybody help me get B+ working with texture hacks? I can't figure out how to do it. I have NTSC-U btw.

Go to the IRC chat if you need help. It's a lot easier to help someone in chat than in a forum.

 

[leafgreen386]

I agree however mk should never be at midtier. MK should still be the best char in the game. We just need to nerf the brokeness about him.

...that was my whole point. He won't become mid-tier unless we buff everyone else like crazy and leave his nerfs in place.

And he should not still be the best character in the game by the time we're done. Should he arguably be the best character in the game? Yeah. But there should be other contenders that could fight for that spot, too. I would really like to see at least 10 characters widely used in tournaments, making up our "top tier." That's a quarter of the cast, which is very good in terms of balance.

A power creep is something that bites you in the *** when it's too late. If it was noticeably preventable, then I'm sure it wouldn't be a concerning issue in competitive games.
Even if you don't like it, you still must be aware of it.

Except for the part where the term usually has to do with things such as MMORPGs and CCGs (collectible card games), where they frequently release new weapons or new sets, which have to constantly be better to get players to use them. That's not true for brawl+. We have the ability to nerf when things get too out of control. Yes, it is important to be aware of power creep, but it should not be so prevalent that it stops us from making changes that could otherwise improve the game. We do have to use discretion, but we shouldn't be afraid to try out changes.

 

[Sukai]

Point taken, I yield to you.

However, some changes are better off undergoing testing and experiments before public modifications.

 

[Revven]

However, some changes are better off undergoing testing and experiments before public modifications.

...

We test EVERY set for roughly weeks to a month. We have a BUNCH of people playtest the set as it is modified while the released set is used for the public.

We're NOT that stupid to put a set out without testing it thoroughly...

 

[Sukai]

Gee Falco400, didn't meen to offend.
But you can't blame me when no insight has been laid on the matter.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

I don't know if anybody agrees... but I think falcon needs some more buffs?
His smashes seem so useless, I might be wrong though. I'm not a C. Falcon mainer.

 

[Dantarion]

I don't know if anybody agrees... but I think falcon needs some more buffs?
His smashes seem so useless, I might be wrong though. I'm not a C. Falcon mainer.

Smashes are 3 of his moves.

Try the rest.
Falcon is a combo machine who gets insane low % kills with knee.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

Smashes are 3 of his moves.

Try the rest.
Falcon is a combo machine who gets insane low % kills with knee.

Yeah, I know that.
Thing is, I'm having trouble approaching people with him (barely started though).
So going into a combo is pretty rare for me. My bro plays Sheik and he totally owns my Falcon.

Well anyways, I guess I need to practice a bit more with him.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Sheik does great against falcon.. b+ falcon dash dances alot until he closes in (similar to melee but your nearly forced to) sheiks needles say hi to your dashdance and she plays a ******** keep away game with her small combos are throws, and nair. Just try nairing through shield and nair chaining, I think you uthrow sheik at first to get some uair chains off. Hope that helps

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Sheik's weakness is her grab. It's laggy even when shield or crouch canceled. Spotdodge or just dodge the grab with a well placed short hop, and she's combo bait.

No clue about Falcon though. Don't play or fight him too often.

 

[Sukai]

Yeah, I know that.
Thing is, I'm having trouble approaching people with him

Dash Dancing anyone?

 

[Starscream]

Correct.
And the change is very noticeable.
I'm changing it back for my own personal set.

I've been using my own hitlag setting since forever. I found the Plusery's setting too high even in 4.0. Might I suggest for hitlag....

C2771EAC 00000004
2C040002 41800010
1C840005 38840000
39C0000A 7C8473D6
2C040000 00000000
C2876220 00000004
2C040002 41800010
1C840005 38840000
39C0000A 7C8473D6
80660064 00000000

...and for electric hitlag...

04B87B10 3F99999A

<3 low hitlag. I want Melee style Fox dairs and Samus uairs!

 

[shanus]

Yeah, to put it short, during the podcast it was brought to my attention that people thought the hitlag was too low (several BRoomers) so I tried out .7 instead of .5. In retrospect, its too low and I should have risen the break point instead. Itll be fixed in the next release.

 

[Plum]

What is the exact file structure of the "real" codeset's location, Plum?

http://good-times.webshots.com/phot...3/173/6/7/22/2463607220096256101zYmZVb_th.jpg

I am using an 8g MicroSDHC (With an adapter so the Wii can read it) it does have music, pictures and videos from my phone because I use it for that as well, but I never had any issues running Homebrew or Brawl+ before. My Wii is currently version 3.4.

GeckoOS_Brawl says that it is applying the SD codes, loads up Brawl, but it is loading vBrawl; I first noticed that it wasn't working when the settings were set on a 2 minute fight instead of a stock match like it should have been if it worked.

 

[Almas]

Okay. What is the filestructure of the codeset's location?

 

[Plum]

Okay. What is the filestructure of the codeset's location?

I had an image in the post, guess it didn't show.
It's just the link to it now; a screenshot of the folder.

 

[JCaesar]

I'd just like to reiterate that I was talking about there being too much hitstun, not hitlag (that is it's own separate issue). This about sums up MD/VA's feelings on the matter:

Brawl+ is good, but there's too much hitstun. I shouldn't be able to nair with wario jab jab to double jump fart. It has like double the melee hitstun

It's fun to be able to combo all day, but combos are just way too easy to pull off imo. Obviously we don't think you should be able to airdodge out of everything like in vBrawl, but it's just too much how it is now. In Melee you had to be precise and perfectly spaced to pull off long combos, but in Brawl+ you have all day to set yourself up for the next hit.

That said, I still like it how it is now more than vBrawl's slowpaced uncomboable garbage. I just think it should be toned down a bit and not be so easy to pull off nasty 0-50s or death combos.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Nice Codeset. I feel that Sakurai unnecessarily nerfed Yoshi's down smash. Would it be feasible to increase the KBG by 10?

 

[TL?]

I got my brawl+ working and its great. I've been playing it with some friends and tryin out all the characters. I thought the hitstun was good. We were able to combo but nothing too ridiculous. The balance updates were nice too. Alot of the worse characters from old brawl are very noticeably improved. But some are are still terrible and metaknight is still ridiculous even with the nerfs. Ike is no good now, everyone else can combo and hes like stuck in normal brawl lol. We thought lucas could definately use some more buffs too. It would be insanely nice if you took out the side-b cancels with lucas and samus, the one where you hit side-b while falling and about to hit the ground and then the projectile doesn't come out.

 

[The Cape]

I can understand where you are coming from but it just doesnt seem possible for multiple reasons.

Firstly the lower hitstun (even with no AD out of tumble) still creates fewer, if any combo possibilities and the game begins feeling like vBrawl again. The higher hitstun is basically a neccesity for almost any linkers. We have actually done a good deal of testing on it.

The nature of the AD definetly is a good deal of the problem and this flaw in the brawl engine is actually something that may restrict us from fixing that. Once we have damage staling this will help things.

Also, with the excellent DI options in Brawl you actually have an easier time getting out of combos in Brawl+ than you would in Melee. You have more options to get out of combos with good DI and good decisions, you just have to have the practice to do so.

We would like to find a more happy medium on the hitstun and will still strive to do so, but there are of course other issues that we have to consider as we go through this making of the codes.

 

[The Cape]

I got my brawl+ working and its great. I've been playing it with some friends and tryin out all the characters. I thought the hitstun was good. We were able to combo but nothing too ridiculous. The balance updates were nice too. Alot of the worse characters from old brawl are very noticeably improved. But some are are still terrible and metaknight is still ridiculous even with the nerfs. Ike is no good now, everyone else can combo and hes like stuck in normal brawl lol. We thought lucas could definately use some more buffs too. It would be insanely nice if you took out the side-b cancels with lucas and samus, the one where you hit side-b while falling and about to hit the ground and then the projectile doesn't come out.

For Ike, not everyone needs combos to be good, I actually play a decent Ike (I like to think) and have some videos in my signature of him if you would be interested in checking it out.

Metaknight is still in the works, tornado especially needs some work done to it, but he is definetly becoming more balanced.

The side Bs with Lucas and Samus I myself would like to see removed, but we are unsure if we can at this point, its something we can definetly look into though.

What other chars do you find lacking if any, and why?


Yoshi D smash, KB increase is in the works.

 

[JCaesar]

I can understand where you are coming from but it just doesnt seem possible for multiple reasons.

Firstly the lower hitstun (even with no AD out of tumble) still creates fewer, if any combo possibilities and the game begins feeling like vBrawl again. The higher hitstun is basically a neccesity for almost any linkers. We have actually done a good deal of testing on it.

The nature of the AD definetly is a good deal of the problem and this flaw in the brawl engine is actually something that may restrict us from fixing that. Once we have damage staling this will help things.

Also, with the excellent DI options in Brawl you actually have an easier time getting out of combos in Brawl+ than you would in Melee. You have more options to get out of combos with good DI and good decisions, you just have to have the practice to do so.

We would like to find a more happy medium on the hitstun and will still strive to do so, but there are of course other issues that we have to consider as we go through this making of the codes.

Fair enough, I'll let MD/VA know. I'd rather keep it how it is now than see too many of the combos disappear. I just wish it wasn't so easy.

 

[Magus420]

I'd just like to reiterate that I was talking about there being too much hitstun, not hitlag (that is it's own separate issue). This about sums up MD/VA's feelings on the matter:

It's fun to be able to combo all day, but combos are just way too easy to pull off imo. Obviously we don't think you should be able to airdodge out of everything like in vBrawl, but it's just too much how it is now. In Melee you had to be precise and perfectly spaced to pull off long combos, but in Brawl+ you have all day to set yourself up for the next hit.

I agree. IMO, instead of globally increasing hitstun so that some characters will be able to combo better, we should be adjusting the properties of those character's moves to BE better combo moves to be able to combo.

 

[The Cape]

As you get more used to the Brawl DI I am sure you will find out that the combos are actually more mindgamey than you think.

When I started playing people who were higher level Brawl players I found it alot harder to make most combos happen.

Glad you are trying it Caesar and we appreciate the input.

 

[JCaesar]

It's mostly higher level Brawl players that I've been playing with. Chudat, Forte, Boss, and plenty of other MD/VA pros all love Brawl+. It's gonna be a main event alongside Brawl at 2 upcoming MD/VA tourneys, and many more after that I'm sure.

 

[The Cape]

Wow, good stuff.

Not really sure what to do about the hitstun to be honest, but it really doesnt feel overpowered to me.

I know there was the arguement about it being about twice what Melee's was, but Melee's engine is completely different from Brawl+.

 

[Wavedash Master]

Wow, good stuff.

Not really sure what to do about the hitstun to be honest, but it really doesnt feel overpowered to me.

I know there was the arguement about it being about twice what Melee's was, but Melee's engine is completely different from Brawl+.

Meaning characters are still faster in Melee. I just really hope we can get characters in Brawl+ as fast as the characters in Melee.

Note that I'm not saying the characters should have the same mechanics and such as they did in Melee, but I'm merely saying we should bring them to that level of speed. When characters are faster, we can lower the histun. This will make some good combos possible, but they will be much harder to achieve. (You should be rewarded for your prediction abilities and your ability of doing a combo, which to many should be somewhat hard to do).

 

[JCaesar]

Cape, if you're interested, I have a bunch of videos of MD/VA pros playing Brawl+: http://www.youtube.com/user/JCaesar007

A lot of them are tournament too. I especially like my set with Chu's Falcon, really intense, down to 3rd match last stock. I won't spoil the ending It was winner's semifinals at a mini-Brawl+ tourney we set up at Brawl Till You Fall.

 

[PKNintendo]

I have a question, can you update the frame of some moves?

Like Ness Fsmash to respectable speeds maybe?

 

[sandbags06]

I have a question, can you update the frame of some moves?

Like Ness Fsmash to respectable speeds maybe?

lol. this was being discussed earlier this week. go back a couple pages and you will see that the likely answer is no.

 

[billy1774]

super marth plz

 

[cookieM0Nster]

erm, that goes in the requests thread, but here:

Super Marth (29 Lines) [Phantom_Wings]
80000000 90180FB8
80000001 81000000
60000006 00000000
4A001000 00000000
38000000 00FF1300
4A001001 00000000
3028806C 00000112
1428723C 00000100
14283FF8 4F000000
E2000001 00000000
3028806C 00000113
14288240 3D700000
3028806D 0000011A
14288240 3D700000
3028806D 0000011B
14288240 3D700000
3028806D 0000011B
122879EA 00000113
E2000001 00000000
3028806C 00000115
30283FF8 41000000
14283FF8 42600000
E2000002 00000000
12287686 00000120
122879AE 00000120
80100000 0000005C
80100001 00052000
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000

 

[trojanpooh]

Ness' bat, I can add the sound, its easy enough lol

Guys, I read this thread every day. I just chose not to post in it as much as my opinions often get seen as this is definitely happening and I don't want people to think a change is final. Your opinions don't go unheard.

Wait so after all this time I've been pushing for the screech, its actually being considered now? Can you do me a favor, and post the code for the screech somewhere even if it doesn't make it to the official build?

 

[cookieM0Nster]

I like someone's idea of having C.Falcon saying YES! everytime he lands a knee, lol!

 

[9bit]

I like someone's idea of having C.Falcon saying YES! everytime he lands a knee, lol!

+1

Spoiler

+8more..

 

[IM_A_HUSTLA]

I like someone's idea of having C.Falcon saying YES! everytime he lands a knee, lol!

and have him say "show me ya moves" when upB connects

 

[Sukai]

On topic people!
Concerning the hitstun, I say it's fine. If any modifications need to made, if possible, increase the window of DIing.
With proper directional influence, combined with fastfalling during tumble, escaping combos should be easier.
Either that, or taking a page from Melee and go ape**** with the controller to reduce the time spent in tumble.