Stage Information Database and Q&A

[Luigi player]

I thought Brinstar was proven to move on a very consistent schedule that deviated by only a few seconds?

And also, I'm not sure how many people are aware of this, but right before the acid begins to rise, the whole screen shakes. Although, you still won't be able to tell how high the acid will rise. In either case, there's your "You can prepare for the acid" argument.

If you're getting juggled and need to land somewhere and the acid is there then you'll just get *****. At least from MK. It's really stupid.

I love tables post. Totally agree with him.

 

[xDD-Master]

Brinstar is HIGHLY CONSISTENT.

You srs?
You compare Brinstars randomness to the others and claim its the same?
O.M.G.
You cant be srs on that.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13039239#post13039239

 

[theunabletable]

btw, whats REALLY wrong with learning something and actually using that knowledge for your advantage?

There's nothing wrong with that, there's something wrong when the things needed to be learned is inconsistent, and when learning the best things causes you to sometimes just lose after coming from another country because of random chance.

It's an extreme example, but it's really ****ing sad for the metagame when the most technically impressive MK I've ever seen only gets one bracket set recorded because random chance knocked him out of the tournament.

The tournament was measurably worse because of the inclusion of that stage, and really, that's what should matter.

it's like when coney loses to M2K (who admittedly wasn't playing the matchup right when not planking anyways, IIRC, but still) from getting planked because there was no LGL, since apparently we hadn't learned our lesson from Axis, even though planking tactics have gotten even better and safer.

Or when Rich loses to Will because Will planked him (no disrespect to M2K or Will or anything, Will's super awesome and cool and stuff, do what you gotta do, it's just lame when what you gotta do is... well lame lol), and caused Rich to consider quitting the game.

Those are ****ing tragedies within the game and the community. And very few things like that happen with a different ruleset. We wouldn't get tournaments (or the metagame. It's sad that only 2 tournament sets of Rain's MK were recorded, and in one of them he only used MK once and SD'd) made extremely worse if the extent of the randomness we play with is the ****ing smashville balloon. Or hell, the flipping on frigate, and the ghost on Yoshi's really aren't that bad, and don't effect NEARLY as much as Brinstar does, and aren't nearly as broken stages in certain matchups.

It's depressing to see the game I play competitively and its tournaments be measurably worse fairly largely because of the opinions bunch of quixotic, prideful annoying people on a forum who are convinced they are correct.

If Japanese players don't take a little time to explore common American counterpicks before coming to American tournaments, that's also not our problem.

Yeah it ****ing is our problem when it gives out of country players incentive not to come when they have to spend thousands of dollars to come from halfway around the world, to have a chance at losing because of random chance.

It ****ing is our problem when the community has fewer videos of an incredible metaknight playing against our players to draw from and learn, just because of random chance, in a stage that doesn't add anything GOOD to the metagame.

It ****ing is our problem when the better player loses because the matchups are so much more unfair on certain stages.

It's just ****ty, and the only reason to ****ing have the stage is "because there's no objective reason to ban it". It doesn't add anything to the metagame, just like keeping the game LGL free didn't add anything. It was gay as ****, and caused many in-game "tragedies" that hurt the community and the metagame.

And also, I'm not sure how many people are aware of this, but right before the acid begins to rise, the whole screen shakes. Although, you still won't be able to tell how high the acid will rise. In either case, there's your "You can prepare for the acid" argument.

god that's like saying "you can prepare for the ability your opponent gets if he wins a minigame on Wario ware, therefore the stage is objectively fine"

I love tables post. Totally agree with him.

thanks for the support :3

Also for the record, I don't really have an issue with any of you except for like... Raziek, I'm sure most of you are fine people, and if I say anything that might address you guys too much personally, I apologize. I'm really heated about this subject at the moment, because it depressed me to watch Rain lose a match from luck (not to take away from Krystedez being ****, and a cool guy, etc, it really was a major accomplishment to do what he did, and make the comeback that he did), and I'm sure it depressed him even more, seeing as he kicked a chair, and almost pulled out my best friend's Wii when he pulled the cord for his GC controller really, and then stomped out of the venue and wasn't seen for like 3 hours, after having flown from Japan to play there.

So sorry if I get a little overboard anger-wise during this

 

[xDD-Master]

I can totally understand you and I'm on yours and Lps side.
Brinstar is bad, and should be banned. End of the story. RC too btw.
It also made me really mad, what happened to both Japanese players. That was just SAD and totally unneccessary :/

Germany's Stage List probably is the best.
It's healthy. It's good. It's fun. It's diverse.
What else should you want

[http://forum.germansmash.de/showthread.php?16577-German-Standard-Ruleset-v1.0]

Japanese should fly to Europe and visit us, instead of the US ^-^

 

[ぱみゅ]

Well, there are different points of view over Smash (Brawl in paricular).
Some people thinks it was supposed to be more like a fighting game with straight-out character vs character action. Some other people thinks that the game offers unlimited options and add depht with stages' elements and layouts.
While japanese has widely adopted the former stance, most americans adopted the latter.
Nobody is really right or wrong about that, is just a different way to think.


Now, japanese people went to the US for participate on a tournament, they already knew the rules, and they should have prepared for the stages they didn't knew.
For people that's too used to have nothing interfering between them and their opponents may result difficult to addapt, but it is very, VERY doable (as most US top players has alrady done), and they are not really right just by complaining. Harsh truth, but that's the way I see it.


Also, as a side note, most "hardcore gamers" use to ragequit a lot. They disconnect controllers prematurely, cancel out games when they know they've lost, hit/crush/slam things, and do many anti-sport attitudes like that.
Sure, he was angry because he lost due to a situation he couldn't handle, but that's not our fault.


tl;dr.
Different ways to think, nobody's fault
Different ways to play, welcome to America
He mad, no johns

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...And by "Diverse" you mean it has exactly no stages with a bizarre layout that would make you think, even for a second.

 

[theunabletable]

lol are you serious?

Okay, so just to clarify, are you saying "It has no stages with a bizarre layout that would require that you continuously use focus on the stage itself, instead of closer to entirely what your opponent is doing and how you should counter it, so you can keep up with the stage, even for a second"? Like would the statement I just made accurately represent the argument you just made? If not, correct me, because I'm partly unsure of what you said, because the interpretation I got of what you said is so completely and utterly awful that I have trouble believing that that's what you meant.

That's the point, stages can have **** happen, but the **** needs to be simple enough that it doesn't TAKE AWAY from the match. It doesn't distract players from the match. It doesn't cause the players to play worse against each other (to varying degrees dependent on the person)

Different ways to think, nobody's fault
Different ways to play, welcome to America
He mad, no johns

You're missing my point, and demonstrating it perfectly.

It's this mindset, this prideful mindset that I think partly, or evenly possibly largely, comes from a misunderstanding of what playing to win is (http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=90378).

Think of it like this: Saying "Welcome to America, learn the way we play, or waste thousands of dollars coming here, and have your weekend ruined because of random chance, and controversial stages" doesn't benefit ANYONE. It's unnecessarily prideful, foolish, illogical, irrational, and rude (and many other things) to stick to your mindset even when it HURTS our community and our metagame.

You want an objective reason to ban planking, even though it's technically possible to beat?
**** hurts our community
You want an objective reason to ban Brinstar?
**** hurts our community, and holds back our metagame.

I guess you have to balance the importance of the reasons for having the stage vs not having it

For the stage: There's no perfectly objective reason to ban it (nor is there for Mario Bros.), and it's diverse so that's good. And the randomness is identical to Smashville.

Against the stage: We have a split community on the stage, we give the best character in the game a free win on his counterpick (since someone already has to ban Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar) against atleast 2 3rds of the cast, we add even more random chance to the game, and the random chance, along with the severity of the hazards, effects the game to a significantly greater extent than the rest of the legal stages, we get sad **** that happens such as sets that shouldn't have been lost, be lost.

The stage is bull****, it is not fair, the hazards are extreme, and not just extreme but far easier to force into, and far more common to the almost comparable hazards on Halberd, it gives certain characters, one being the best in the game, an auto win against the majority of the cast, and really most importantly from what I've noticed, it's caused more harm for this game than good.

Just because there's no objective reason to ban Mario Bros. doesn't mean it should be legal. After playing on it for a while, blastzone camping isn't overcentralizing. It's still just a bad stage for competition in the metagame we have today, and would damage the community and metagame if it were legal.

Not to say I'm like... objectively correct either, it just seems like liberal stages really cause more harm than good, and I would really like you to understand my opinions on that, because I can't fathom why we'd use a ruleset that causes the metagame and the community, and the players playing it to be worse off.

I do agree with some of what your post says, but I feel like there's something you're missing with what I'm saying, because of what you responded with, and how it kinda doesn't exactly respond to what I'm trying to say, so I'm elaborating a bit

And@BPC just in case you didn't know, I don't hate stages that have movement, or diversity. I love diverse stages. You probably don't know this, but my two favorite stages are Mario Circuit and Mario Bros., just because they're really cool and fun

 

[xDD-Master]

...And by "Diverse" you mean it has exactly no stages with a bizarre layout that would make you think, even for a second.

Lets compare.

Japan has 6 Stages afaik.
Netherland has 10 Stages (No PS2).
We have 11 Stages.
America has 13 Stages (Atm).

Just because we dont have stupid stages that doesnt add anything beside stupidness you think it isnt diverse anymore?
Our Stage List has enough room to be explored anyway.

And as you can see, our metagame hasnt grown around one character. It has character diversity. A lot of the MK problem in the US is because of the ruleset, you cant deny.

Its healthy, because everyone can beat everyone on every stage.
Because every character can play on every stage.
Because everyone can play on every stage.
Because every stage is playable by every character and everyone.
No one gets gayed by the stage. That element doesnt exist.
Do we want it? No.


I asked you this in another thread as well, why dont you try to implement Items into competitive brawl?

You know how Items act, you know how they work, what you can do with them, how to use them, how to abuse them. You kinda know their spawn rate (You can even adjust that a little), and as there probably are zones where the dont spawn (off stage for example), you could probably avoid picking up items.
Items add depth, as they are a new gameplay Element. You have to keep track of the spawning items, just like you suggest to do with Brinstars acid.

I can apply every argument you say about Brinstar to Items. Whats the reason for you to not argue pro-items?

Srsly I wanna know, as I dont understand.
In the real world we just say, that we dont want to test item skill. But what is a BPC world argument? Tell me, let me know.

[...]

FINALLY! Someone that does understand how the world works

But I think, Cadet already starts to get more tolerant, which is a good thing. In our Chat yesterday he kinda seemed to realize, that he is not the ultimately right person with his opinions, and that its probably good to have different opinions and input, as then nothing ever gets generally accepted. So the metagame and the ruleset stays subject to change, whenever new ideas and stuff comes up.

Thats what I try to tell him from the beginning. He should just start to enjoy the game.

Some other people thinks that the game offers unlimited options and add depht with stages' elements and layouts.

I can only point that out!

Thats what I LOVE about Brawl. You can play it in soooo many different ways!
Hell, I LOVE playing Drinking Games etc. with other competitive players, playing with Items and on broken Stages, it really is a LOT OF fun.
It's so awesome, that you can take a break from all the srs business and just chill, while still playing the same game <3
BUT! -and that is the important part- you have to admit that not every Stage is fit for competitive play.
And while BF/SV will always be, and be part of every truely tournament/competitive ruleset, others are borderline and will never be "ultimate".
Stages like Brinstar/RC are VERY borderline, and you really cant objectively argue pro or against the keeping of stage, because in the end it mostly comes down to "where do you draw the line?".
And thats why many of the stage discussions are useless.
Every human draws the line different.
Same people dont see a problem with people getting hit by the acid 20 times. Others do.
Same thing can be applied to walls.
While some dont see a problem in walls, others might do.
You cant objectively tell which one is "correct" or "better", because neither is.


E: Love to table <3

 

[SaveMeJebus]

lol are you serious?

Okay, so just to clarify, are you saying "It has no stages with a bizarre layout that would require that you continuously use focus on the stage itself, instead of closer to entirely what your opponent is doing and how you should counter it, so you can keep up with the stage, even for a second"? Like would the statement I just made accurately represent the argument you just made? If not, correct me, because I'm partly unsure of what you said, because the interpretation I got of what you said is so completely and utterly awful that I have trouble believing that that's what you meant.

That's the point, stages can have **** happen, but the **** needs to be simple enough that it doesn't TAKE AWAY from the match. It doesn't distract players from the match. It doesn't cause the players to play worse against each other (to varying degrees dependent on the person)

You're missing my point, and demonstrating it perfectly.

It's this mindset, this prideful mindset that comes from a misunderstanding of what playing to win is (http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=90378).

Think of it like this: Saying "Welcome to America, learn the way we play, or waste thousands of dollars coming here, and have your weekend ruined because of random chance, and controversial stages" doesn't benefit ANYONE. It's unnecessarily prideful, foolish, illogical, irrational, and rude (and many other things) to stick to your mindset even when it HURTS our community and our metagame.

You want an objective reason to ban planking, even though it's technically possible to beat?
**** hurts our community
You want an objective reason to ban Brinstar?
**** hurts our community, and holds back our metagame.

I guess you have to balance the importance of the reasons for having the stage vs not having it

For the stage: There's no perfectly objective reason to ban it (nor is there for Mario Bros.), and it's diverse so that's good. And the randomness is identical to Smashville.

Against the stage: We have a split community on the stage, we give the best character in the game a free win on his counterpick (since someone already has to ban Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar) against atleast 2 3rds of the cast, we add even more random chance to the game, and the random chance, along with the severity of the hazards, effects the game to a significantly greater extent than the rest of the legal stages, we get sad **** that happens such as sets that shouldn't have been lost, be lost.

The stage is bull****, it is not fair, the hazards are extreme, and not just extreme but far easier to force into, and far more common to the almost comparable hazards on Halberd, it gives certain characters, one being the best in the game, an auto win against the majority of the cast, and really most importantly from what I've noticed, it's caused more harm for this game than good.

Just because there's no objective reason to ban Mario Bros. doesn't mean it should be legal. After playing on it for a while, blastzone camping isn't overcentralizing. It's still just a bad stage for competition in the metagame we have today, and would damage the community and metagame if it were legal.

And@BPC just in case you didn't know, I don't hate stages that have movement, or diversity. I love diverse stages. You probably don't know this, but my two favorite stages are Mario Circuit and Mario Bros., just because they're really cool and fun

Brinstar is a great counter pick stage. Aside from the random but predictable lava, what's wrong with the stage? If timeouts occur on this or any stage, there is a problem with the timer and not the stage.

 

[xDD-Master]

Brinstar is a great counter pick stage. Aside from the random but predictable lava, what's wrong with the stage?

Everything else

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Everything else

Just because the stage isn't flat is not a good reason to ban it.

 

[theunabletable]

@xDDmaster: actually I feel like adding on to this, and saying that nationals, imo, are a really bad place to add anything especially borderline to the ruleset, because that's really just ASKING for something awful to happen.

Like how many times have you gone away from a tournament and thought "Man thank god THAT stage was legal, it added SO much to this tournament, I'm sure it was better overall because of the inclusion of this stage, or the exclusion of an LGL", and I can think of 3 major tournaments off the top of my head in the past 6 months that were made noticeably worse because of the ruleset having controversial things in it haha

Like it's just risky to do something like that, and saying "This is what we do in America" doesn't change the fact that the tournament was made much worse for many people because of that mindset, and probably very few people went away thinking "Brinstar is such a fantastic competitive stage that adds so much, and made this tournament so much better"

Brinstar is a great counter pick stage. Aside from the random but predictable lava, what's wrong with the stage? If timeouts occur on this or any stage, there is a problem with the timer and not the stage.

I feel like you're trolling me lol

actually my main issue with RC/Brinstar (Brinstar since it was what you banned) arose when I beat you fairly handily on RC, without needing to try, which really shouldn't happen when you're like... ranked 8 in the best region in the country, and I'm like... not very good.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Okay, so just to clarify, are you saying "It has no stages with a bizarre layout that would require that you continuously use focus on the stage itself, instead of closer to entirely what your opponent is doing and how you should counter it, so you can keep up with the stage, even for a second"? Like would the statement I just made accurately represent the argument you just made? If not, correct me, because I'm partly unsure of what you said, because the interpretation I got of what you said is so completely and utterly awful that I have trouble believing that that's what you meant.

just resized the key word.
If you focus enterely on your opponent's character, you miss many details, like backgrounds, sounds, timings, or even colors, which may affect the final outcome of a match.
For me, is pretty much the same than playing a team battle, if you focus on one of your opponents, and then the other one comes and attacks from behind and alters results.

You're missing my point, and demonstrating it perfectly.

No, I am not.
I actually said you are neither right or wrong, you just think differently.

It's this mindset, this prideful mindset that comes from a misunderstanding of what playing to win is (http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=90378).

My mindset is a result of the gathering of data by PLAYING the game.
I have played it, attended tournaments, being on many different stages, scenarios, pressures and situations.

Although I do not base my rules on my mindset, but on irrefuttable logic data.

Think of it like this: Saying "Welcome to America, learn the way we play, or waste thousands of dollars coming here, and have your weekend ruined because of random chance, and controversial stages" doesn't benefit ANYONE. It's unnecessarily prideful, foolish, illogical, irrational, and rude (and many other things) to stick to your mindset even when it HURTS our community and our metagame.

In the US people have (almost) always palyed like that. Everyone was notified with rules, everyone outside the country should've known they were going to be put in that dire situation.
That's how things are on the game, the people, even on the day-to-day when you are on a foreign land.
Yes, I'm being rude, sorry about that. Still, that's one of the things that can't be changed.

You want an objective reason to ban planking, even though it's technically possible to beat?
**** hurts our community
You want an objective reason to ban Brinstar?
**** hurts our community, and holds back our metagame.

I'd rather have them unbanned and hurt the part of the community that wannot to deal with them (as a plus, they can learn to handle them), than just ban them straight away.
I think is much better to build something with a squared, schematized data than just use preferences (even if they are a majority) until they are proven to be a REAL problem.

 

[xDD-Master]

[..]until they are proven to be a REAL problem.

And when is that moment when something begins to be a REAL problem :o?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@xDDmaster: actually I feel like adding on to this, and saying that nationals, imo, are a really bad place to add anything especially borderline to the ruleset, because that's really just ASKING for something awful to happen.

Like how many times have you gone away from a tournament and thought "Man thank god THAT stage was legal, it added SO much to this tournament, I'm sure it was better overall because of the inclusion of this stage, or the exclusion of an LGL", and I can think of 3 major tournaments off the top of my head in the past 6 months that were made noticeably worse because of the ruleset having controversial things in it haha

Like it's just risky to do something like that, and saying "This is what we do in America" doesn't change the fact that the tournament was made much worse for many people because of that mindset, and probably very few people went away thinking "Brinstar is such a fantastic competitive stage that adds so much, and made this tournament so much better"

I feel like you're trolling me lol

actually my main issue with RC/Brinstar (Brinstar since it was what you banned) arose when I beat you fairly handily on RC, without needing to try, which really shouldn't happen when you're like... ranked 8 in the best region in the country, and I'm like... not very good.

The reason why you think you beat me so easily is because MK beats Diddy on that stage. It's not a bad stage, my character just sucks on it. The reason I banned Brinstar against you is because earlier that day, I money matched Darklink and got beat pretty badly at the ditto on Brinstar (I ended up winning the set). I was also pissed of at the fact that I had lost to south paw who was my first loss since I got ranked.

Since then, I have been practicing on Brinstar.I now take Vato to last hit there and the only way he has beaten me there recently is by time out. Next time I see you, we should money match and I'll give you a special deal. I will let you start off on Brinstar. Seriously people, just learn the stage


Also, listen to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltqgP-Xgceg

Accept the fact that your character will not be great on all stages

 

[ぱみゅ]

FINALLY! Someone that does understand how the world works

I only pointed something nobody else stated before.

Thats what I try to tell him from the beginning. He should just start to enjoy the game.


I can only point that out!

Thats what I LOVE about Brawl. You can play it in soooo many different ways!
Hell, I LOVE playing Drinking Games etc. with other competitive players, playing with Items and on broken Stages, it really is a LOT OF fun.
It's so awesome, that you can take a break from all the srs business and just chill, while still playing the same game <3
BUT! -and that is the important part- you have to admit that not every Stage is fit for competitive play.
And while BF/SV will always be, and be part of every truely tournament/competitive ruleset, others are borderline and will never be "ultimate".
Stages like Brinstar/RC are VERY borderline, and you really cant objectively argue pro or against the keeping of stage, because in the end it mostly comes down to "where do you draw the line?".
And thats why many of the stage discussions are useless.
Every human draws the line different.
Same people dont see a problem with people getting hit by the acid 20 times. Others do.
Same thing can be applied to walls.
While some dont see a problem in walls, others might do.
You cant objectively tell which one is "correct" or "better", because neither is.

And when is that moment when something begins to be a REAL problem :o?

You can see my Response to Table.
In order to avoid human error, I have gathered data and base decisions enterely on observations, happenings and the likeliness of them.
Until something is proven to be a problem impossible to avoid (may result in time consuming, high-damaging, stock-taking, or stuff like that), is when I consider they should be banned.

But that's just me.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@Table: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10807220&postcount=89

Relevant part:

By banning stages preemptively, we remove elements from the game and CHANGE IT INTO ANOTHER GAME. Brawl, in its native state, is about multitasking. It's about juggling many different opponents (in whatever form) at once and coming out on top. Sometimes your opponent is a foe, sometimes it's a stage hazard, and sometimes it's an inanimate object, just as a Waddle Dee or banana peel... but, IN ITS NATIVE STATE, Brawl is a game about multitasking. Now, is our CURRENT game about multitasking? Most of the interactive stages are gone. Items are gone. It's 1v1.

We, through overuse of bans, have literally changed the win conditions of Brawl.

 

[Yikarur]

you didn't read what they said at all didn't you?

you're so stupid for still trying to argue.

and yes, if you look at it like that, we changed the win condition in brawl into something better

the USA Metagame is really unhealthy, and that should be clear by now.

 

[xDD-Master]

@Cadet: That Quote is ****.
There is not native state in Brawl.

Where do you know from what the native State is?

WE CAN TURN OFF STAGES!
WE CAN TURN OFF ITEMS!
WE CAN CHOOSE TO PLAY 1ON1!

If we were not able to do so, then you would be right, but we can, so this is wrong.

Brawl was intentionally meant to be played in different ways.
While our friends probably choose the most random and therefore most fun way for them,
we choose the best way for tournaments, which probably is more fun to us (Or at least a lot of fun too).

You could only say, that Sakurai created is a party game, which he suggests to play with Items, every Stage and FFA. Thats all.

AAAAAAND what Yika said, read the posts.

And please say soemthing to the stuff we wrote at least, instead of just posting a completely new post.
Otherwise I asume to you agree with us.

Oh and BTW.
Back to that quote. Why do we ban items again?

 

[WindMajor]

Apparently because their randomness affects matches in a way that wildly fluctuates results. The best player does not always win.


Also at Akuma: Items, stages, and characters were all developed and balanced with the intention for players to use. In that sense, you can say that he suggests that we use all the items/stages/characters in the same way that he suggests that we don't play with them on, because of the numerous menu options that allow us to turn things off. It works both ways, but if you're going to turn this game into a tournament game, you have to work starting with the complete package (everything in the game: all characters, stages, items, etc.), which is what they mean by the native state, and then from there, you start subtracting things that don't belong. They aren't suggesting that there is a certain way to play Brawl, they are just saying that the game we had from our starting point involves a LOT of multitasking, and that the changes we made have driven the game further and further away from that direction.

 

[xDD-Master]

That game that also should be played with 4 players FFA always, because there is the option to do so.
That game, that wants us to play with Timer/Coins the same degree as Stocks? (Or hell, we start off with timer if you want so, and tbh there is no objectively argument that favors stocks over timer).
If we want to play it competitive, we can do whatever we want to the game.
When you once started to change the game, there is NOTHING wrong with doing more.

It stays the game, as long as we dont start hacking it.
We are just making it fit for competitive tournament gameplay.

And therefore Stages like Brinstar & RC are unacceptable to our opinion, as they destroy the flow a match in a degree, that the skill we want to test (Zoning/Spacing/Mind etc. mostly) gets to often and to hardly interrupted by the stage.

Human abilities are limited, and we can't play perfectly, react to and keep track of everything. Therefore, the stages shouldnt be too interruptive.

 

[Life]

tl;dr of my entire argument:

"It's not a bug, it's a feature"

While I'm here, I'd argue that a good reason to use Stock+Time is that it offers the most paths to victory -> offers the most viable strategies -> more depth.

I'd also argue that removing Brinstar causes us to lose more depth than we gain; MK is OP everywhere so that's not a good reason to ban the stage, while characters like Wario, GnW, and at least a couple LTs lose out big time from not having the stage around. Meanwhile, dodging the acid is not functionally different from watching the hazards on Halberd. (It's used more frequently, but it's the same skill.) Are we going to ban Halberd next?

But we're going in circles here...

 

[xDD-Master]

Yeah just that Halberd is a lot easier, with the claw being potentially the only one that is a bit harder to dodge.

But thats OK, as it gives at least 20 seconds of warning or so xD
And then its only once or twice, in most matches (It least that what I feel like, dunno if its maybe more)

 

[WindMajor]

Remember when this thread was a social thread?

 

[xDD-Master]

No, jo twinkie whats up :D

 

[Ghostbone]

Banning Brinstar would be pretty crap for all the characters besides MK that like it.
You can just use your ban on Brinstar, RC is far from an auto-win for MK.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Where am I not calm? Is it the "*****ing and whining" part?

Was talking to xDD.

If you're getting juggled and need to land somewhere and the acid is there then you'll just get *****. At least from MK. It's really stupid.

I love tables post. Totally agree with him.

It can happen as is a part of MK himself which I am undecided on the matter of does he himself limit stages.

While I have been leaning no for the most part, since I feel like other characters actually do worse or things just as bad as he can on most stages.

 

[xDD-Master]

Banning Brinstar would be pretty crap for all the characters besides MK that like it.
You can just use your ban on Brinstar, RC is far from an auto-win for MK.

We dont really look at characters when banning or keeping stages -.-"

:/

 

[Ussi]

Banning Brinstar would be pretty crap for all the characters besides MK that like it.
You can just use your ban on Brinstar, RC is far from an auto-win for MK.

Its hard to CP brinstar when so many people are just willing to jump onto pocket MK to deal with the stage. You aren't gonna cp someone's char who likes the stage..

Brinstar is a good stage.. Its just unusable with (pocket) MK around @_@;;

 

[Ghostbone]

There are characters that like Brinstar against MK....

 

[WindMajor]

No, jo twinkie whats up :D

I had a nice response to this but then I got a database error.

I'm so chill atm tho




T-Block, where you at!?

 

[ElDominio]

I have a reply to TWiNK and the crew.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm actualy siding with XDD-Master for once.

Again, I hate myself for doing this, but...

Spoiler

If we're going by what the game says it was DESIGNED to do... Then yes

Just to feel like my hero BPC (yeah right), the relevant part being:

Apparently because their randomness affects matches in a way that wildly fluctuates results. The best player does not always win.


Also at Akuma: Items, stages, and characters were all developed and balanced with the intention for players to use. In that sense, you can say that he suggests that we use all the items/stages/characters in the same way that he suggests that we don't play with them on, because of the numerous menu options that allow us to turn things off. It works both ways, but if you're going to turn this game into a tournament game, you have to work starting with the complete package (everything in the game: all characters, stages, items, etc.), which is what they mean by the native state, and then from there, you start subtracting things that don't belong. They aren't suggesting that there is a certain way to play Brawl, they are just saying that the game we had from our starting point involves a LOT of multitasking, and that the changes we made have driven the game further and further away from that direction.

I just read that about three times (instead of studying for Calculus, the exam I have in an hour) and undestood it.
Agreed.

So you're both basically agreeing?

I think then, what is this "tournament" game we call "Brawl" is literally what the people want to play (except, it's not. It's what the Ruleset Comitee wants the people to play)

 

[WindMajor]

Like I said, Sakurai made all the stages, items, and characters with the intent that we use them.

He also made it a feature to change the game with a variety of settings with the intent that we can play however we want.

His intentions basically contradict each other so he can appeal to numerous crowds. All that's left to do is find out which crowd we belong in (the competitive crowd) and logically make decisions as to how we want the game to be played. This isn't an excuse to recklessly dance around the menus with scissors though.







Also, hurr durr ElDominio
You're bad and you should feel bad
Now stop badgering me on Skype and go fail Calculus.

 

[xDD-Master]

We dont have that "boring" or "Stale" Problem like the US, even though Europe only uses 10-12 Stages (Germany 11 now).
Japan also has not this problem.

So why does the US have a problem with stale metagames? Dont say because of the stages.
Even with 11 Stages there is enough room to explore.
So many character metagames are behind what they actually could be (In the US).

Just watch Mr-R for example, is there any Marth has similar impressive style? No. Room to explore.
Watch Oceans ROB or Yuis Fox, anyone similar to them in the US? No. Room to explore.
Or Brood/Nietonos Olimars, 9Bs ICs, Glutonnys Wario.

We could do that forever.
Of course Europe on the other hand, has not that good of MKs/Snakes, but thats another thing.
At least we always try to improve and do so.

Thing is, even with less Stages there is enough room to explore. No excuse :/
But as of now, your metagame goes completely in the direction of "Main MK and you'll do good... or else you will die".
Even though I hate character arguments, it is what it is.

If you ask me, America should probably at least Temp-Ban MK, before then allowing even more stages (So non-MK Character can find their tactics on that stages, instead of everyone switching to MK).
Probably that would work out. But atm everyone seems to jump on the MK-bandwagon, especially on controversial stages :/

Our (Europe) metagame for example is very diverse and healthy, when it comes down to characters, players or the tournaments in general. There are many people that play their character ignoring the tier list, and trying to improve more and more. New tactics, new mindgames, etc.
Instead of only achieving the win, we actually try to improve as much as possible. Trying new stuff all the time.
I think the biggest problem lies in the mentality. While Europeans put in the effort and train to do crazy stuff with whatever character, Americans tend to go the "easy way to win" and therefore go MK.

But thats just theory, maybe I'm wrong



Oh and thx for your respond ElDominio, that pic is good stuff :D xd


@ Twinkie: The moment you realize that the sending of the post is lagging, you should strg+c it. Just to make sure.
And probably save big posts everytime, you add parts. Just to make sure.

When I read your "I wrote the same big thing twice and got database error'd" thats just sad to hear :/

 

[Ussi]

There are characters that like Brinstar against MK....

o.o who? Banning RC cause you'd rather be CP'd to brinstar is not CPing MK to brinstar :x

You sure that isn't the player who prefers it if someone is actually cping MK to brinstar?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Jigglypuff likes Brinstar against MK, arguably.

Depends on the player really.

 

[ElDominio]

*long post*
If you ask me, America should probably at least Temp-Ban MK, before then allowing even more stages (So non-MK Character can find their tactics on that stages, instead of everyone switching to MK).
Probably that would work out. But atm everyone seems to jump on the MK-bandwagon, especially on controversia*continued long post*

Big problem. Everyone here is scared of that, and aside from that we can't even discuss it. We're forced to play how the gods up in (you know who you are, not the BBR) want us to play.

In Puerto Rico at least, since the pots really arent that big there isn't that much of a "play to win" mentality as in US.

And since, we can discuss MK or use the "b" word, we have to resort to adding more stages in vain hopes that they help other characters finally overcome him.

 

[T-block]

I had a nice response to this but then I got a database error.

I'm so chill atm tho




T-Block, where you at!?

sup?

Jigglypuff likes Brinstar against MK, arguably.

Depends on the player really.

Yeah, Puff does okay against MK on Brinstar.

 

[WindMajor]

@ Twinkie: The moment you realize that the sending of the post is lagging, you should strg+c it. Just to make sure.
And probably save big posts everytime, you add parts. Just to make sure.

When I read your "I wrote the same big thing twice and got database error'd" thats just sad to hear :/

I normally do that, but I was on the phone at the time. xd

 

[Ussi]

Jigglypuff likes Brinstar against MK, arguably.

Depends on the player really.

Then why is brinstar still here if only 1 character that is rarely used that can use brinstar vs MK while the rest are too afraid to CP brinstar with fear of pocket MKs?

I know brinstar is a legit stage, but keeping it here is just isn't helping anyone besides MK and Jigglypuff. But i think Brinstar shouldn't stay while MK is around. The people who ban RC when it comes to the Brinstar/RC combo, i think they would like just banning RC and going to a different CP like delfino, halberd, or what not...


though i just thought of a sill direct surgical nerf to MK and CPing.

Basically, everyone gets 2 stage bans, however the 2nd stage ban doesn't count if the opponent is not using MK. Why this way? Because it doesn't matter about character choice during game 1, it stops pocket MKs and MK from having the brinstar/RC combo. However when the person wants to go to the 2nd ban, then he can't switch to MK or must switch off MK.

direct surgical nerf that doesn't give MK 2 stage bans but having 2 stage bans vs MK. Doesn't hurt people who use multiple characters either.

ex:

Player A bans Brinstar, then RC

Player B can either:

CP RC, but cannot be MK
CP another stage, and be whoever he wants.