Stage Information Database and Q&A

[T-block]

I think that's the best way. Present pro-ban and anti-ban sentiments on various topics, and I think the topics you have there are good.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Tblock I didn't hug you once at genesis.


Your status is a lie

 

[T-block]

Hai Soren ^^

It's not a lie. You were just disobedient.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think that RC should be banned because it forces players to keep up with a moving stage. In every one of the current legal stages, you can jump and shield to avoid all the hazards. RC is the only stage that forces you to move with the in order to stay alive. This is another reason why I don't think Norfair should be legalized.

 

[Player-1]

What I'm hearing "RC is different so it should be banned"

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What I'm hearing "RC is different so it should be banned"

It's different in a bad way. Moving stages are bad for competitive play because sometimes the only way to get around them is to use your special recovery move. This stage punishes you for trying to keep up with it.

 

[Player-1]

There is no character in the game that can't get around with just his jump and midair jump for recovery, the only time it forces you to use your special recovery is when your opponent puts you in that position which is no different from any other stage.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

There is no character in the game that can't get around with just his jump and midair jump for recovery, the only time it forces you to use your special recovery is when your opponent puts you in that position which is no different from any other stage.

Pretty much any character without multiple jumps is going to be put in a recovery type situation when they are trying the get to the pendulum like platform. No character with out a decent full hop can get to the pendulum like platform from the main platform safely.

 

[Player-1]

1. You don't have to get to the pendulum.
2. That's the point to CPing...
3. And that's wrong you can get to the pendulum safely easily without multiple jumps or a decent full hop.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What if you are fighting on the ground and you lose your momentum because the stage started moving up? Now instead of continuing your combo, you have to catch up with the stage. How does that promote competition?

 

[Player-1]

1. Rainbow Cruise moving up isn't like ****ing icicle mountain lightening speed mode, it's not like "OMG **** I'M GOING TO DO DIE IF I DONT START MOVING UP RIGHT NOW!!!!"
2. Again, that's the point to CPing.
3. Let's ban smashville because the platformed moved in the in front of your combo, it broke your momentum.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

1. Rainbow Cruise moving up isn't like ****ing icicle mountain lightening speed mode, it's not like "OMG **** I'M GOING TO DO DIE IF I DONT START MOVING UP RIGHT NOW!!!!"
2. Again, that's the point to CPing.
3. Let's ban smashville because the platformed moved in the in front of your combo, it broke your momentum.

Smashville's platform may break combos, but the stage doesn't force you to keep up with it. Not only that but the stage puts you in a bad position by catching up to it. It puts you below your opponent. It gives more characters the ability to shark. MK may be able to shark on stages like halberd, but in this stage, he never has to land on the same platform that you are standing on and on most of the stage, he doesn't have to grab a ledge to land safely.

 

[Kantrip]

I claim this page in the name of the Diddy boards.

Seriously, is there anywhere you two don't start fighting?

 

[Blacknight99923]

if every character in the game was banned except diddy and metaknight and jebus said metaknight was better P1 would still argue with him about that

 

[Player-1]

1. There's nothing wrong with a stage having you have to stay up to speed with it.
2. Sharking is only a "problem" on one portion of the stage.
3. The fact that he doesn't have to land on the same platform as you and ledge is a good thing, on other stages sharking is hard to punish because of the lagless up-b land or nado, if he lands somewhere else that just gives you time to run away.
4. To beat sharking on this stage, you just stay as low as possible for as long as possible and let the camera move up, by that time all the platforms should have spawned and you can jump out of the sharking area and get to the highest left platform. All of the characters that give sharking a problem (which is only 2 in my eyes: MK and Pit) have multiple jumps and all multiple jumps don't get you much vertical height meaning the other character can get much higher at a much faster rate so it takes time for the sharker to catch up with you. Once he finally does you can transition between the left platform and the doughnut blocks that hold the pendulum up until the right platform appears and at that point sharking is no longer a problem. If you're doing it right then sharking is only a problem for about 3 seconds AT BEST through this entire portion.

@Crimson, everyone fights with Jebus in these boards I don't think I've seen a single person to agree with any new ideas he's bringing up ever.

 

[Life]

RC's movement is ridiculously minimal. If you're REMOTELY paying attention, keeping up with it is not difficult.

Also, your opponent forces you to move, ban the opponent IMO.

P1, Jebus was actually doing pretty good for a while there...

 

[Kantrip]

Also, your opponent forces you to move, ban the opponent IMO.

I lol'd.

Also, it's true p-1. What you say is true.

DK can shark alright too, and ROB if he feels like it.

 

[Player-1]

yeah DK can but it's pretty risky since you're only option to shark successfully is to land the lagless up-b successfully and if you don't time it right then you get a bunch of lag or you fall to your death and yeah ROB's sharking is decent, but not a problem especially on this stage.

 

[Kantrip]

The timing on DK's lagless up-b is easy. In general I wouldn't be concerned by sharking, though. You mentioned how to avoid it here, and other applicable stages have ways to avoid it also.

 

[WindMajor]

So guys

Norfair guide


I'm past the halfway mark on it, and I'm already finishing up with all the remaining sections of it. One of those sections, however, is the Legality section, which I intend on doing last. Before I finish the rest of the remaining sections and move on to the Legality section, I want to ask you guys on your opinion for something.

How should the legality section it be done?

My personal stance is for legalizing Norfair, btw. What would you guys prefer to see?

1) Me selecting topics (that I already picked out) and explaining why I think it should be legal, and finish there.
2) Having some sort of anti-ban pro-ban write up on those same topics, in which I represent anti-ban, and someone else can represent pro-ban.

For those wondering, the topics would be: Hazards, Influence on Cast, Stalling Potential, Counterpick Qualities, Double Standards.

Would like more input for this. :3

 

[ぱみゅ]

I vote the pro-ban and anti-ban arguments...
I'd rather vote not mentioning legality at all, but that's just me.

In any case, every point there seems amazing. I jsut can't wait to see it complete.

 

[WindMajor]

So who wants to represent pro ban? :3

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I think that RC should be banned because it forces players to keep up with a moving stage. In every one of the current legal stages, you can jump and shield to avoid all the hazards. RC is the only stage that forces you to move with the in order to stay alive. This is another reason why I don't think Norfair should be legalized.

Every character can make it through RC without using a special recovery move. Every single one of them. Even characters like Olimar and Link don't have an issue with it. You have to move to stay alive... But so what?

It's different in a bad way. Moving stages are bad for competitive play because sometimes the only way to get around them is to use your special recovery move. This stage punishes you for trying to keep up with it.

You only have to use your special recovery move if your opponent pressures you into a bad position. At which point you earned it. It's just like, say, I dunno... Smashville.

What if you are fighting on the ground and you lose your momentum because the stage started moving up? Now instead of continuing your combo, you have to catch up with the stage. How does that promote competition?

Been there, done that.

There are basically two major positions in brawl: neutral states and non-neutral states. The former is where someone is camping and someone has to approach; the latter is present in cases such as juggles, combos, edgeguarding, ledge traps, and the like. What different stages do, however, is place different emphasis on different states. When a stage constantly forces a reset to the "neutral" state (such as is the case on stages like Brinstar, Frigate, and PTAD), it simply puts more emphasis on footsies and approaching, rather than on juggling, trapping, and the like. And this is perfectly valid, and designed into gameplay. This is nothing new; if you compare characters you find similar differences. Snake almost always wants to be in a neutral state, while Marth essentially lives off of Non-neutral states. MK excels at both, but especially at forcing a non-neutral state to continue even when something would've interrupted it. The other way around as well; while a juggle started with marth may lead to 50%+ on Snake, DK, or ROB, it may only deal 10-20 to an MK who knows what he's doing, if you understand what I mean. This variance is already present within the cast.
By banning stages that do that, especially because they do that, you overemphasize the non-neutral states artificially throughout the ruleset, and, yes, artificially weaken approaching. That's a gameplay change that I feel should not be supported in any way. In any case, you certainly can't argue that what Brinstar does (forcing a reset) is a banworthy trait.

Essentially, the reason it doesn't matter that RC pulls emphasis away from strings and combos is because at the same time, it puts serious emphasis on approaches and zoning.

I honestly can't think of a single argument to ban RC. At all.


@Twinkie: ask DMG or something?

 

[WindMajor]

That's a good one, lol. I'll ask him when I get there.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

1. There's nothing wrong with a stage having you have to stay up to speed with it.
2. Sharking is only a "problem" on one portion of the stage.
3. The fact that he doesn't have to land on the same platform as you and ledge is a good thing, on other stages sharking is hard to punish because of the lagless up-b land or nado, if he lands somewhere else that just gives you time to run away.
4. To beat sharking on this stage, you just stay as low as possible for as long as possible and let the camera move up, by that time all the platforms should have spawned and you can jump out of the sharking area and get to the highest left platform. All of the characters that give sharking a problem (which is only 2 in my eyes: MK and Pit) have multiple jumps and all multiple jumps don't get you much vertical height meaning the other character can get much higher at a much faster rate so it takes time for the sharker to catch up with you. Once he finally does you can transition between the left platform and the doughnut blocks that hold the pendulum up until the right platform appears and at that point sharking is no longer a problem. If you're doing it right then sharking is only a problem for about 3 seconds AT BEST through this entire portion.

@Crimson, everyone fights with Jebus in these boards I don't think I've seen a single person to agree with any new ideas he's bringing up ever.

1. That's an opinion
2. It's still a problem and that is a big portion of the stage
3. Lagless tornado and up b? what are you talking about? both are punishable since they are approaching from below
4. This is one of those situations I was talking about. If you are above your opponent, you are going to get sharked. If you are below your opponent, you are going to be put in a vary tough recovery like situation. The opponent is basically forcing you to recover if he lands on certain parts of the stage before you. Only characters that have multiple jumps or a glide can avoid this.

 

[AlanHaTe]

the pro-ban and anti-ban thing sound good for me, but just wondering if that would help about the legality thing...

anyways I'm looking forward for this thing and too see what happens will be interesting... and I hope they include it on Unity Ruleset :3

Go Twinkie!! and btw that Hayley Williams pic you got there looks damn good! xD

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Prefix: I am drunk. Like, really, really drunk.

Jebus... Stop posting. You've been a joke for what, a year now? You've been posting like a ****ing ****** ever since. Please stop. Sincerely. Sane person A.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Prefix: I am drunk. Like, really, really drunk.

Jebus... Stop posting. You've been a joke for what, a year now? You've been posting like a ****ing ****** ever since. Please stop. Sincerely. Sane person A.

Who the **** are you to talk? Nobody likes you either.

 

[xDD-Master]

Lets go back to Norfair guys


So pro Ban...

- Lava can interupt gameplay
- Lava is random (??? dont know how random it is)
- Lava is damaging/killing
- When the giant lava comes the platform with the "house" gets solid, you could get randomly stage spiked by it (Not that it even happened lol, but just adding it xD)
- Same to the lava from the side, that could randomly save lifes for example
- Lava plumes are very strong and sometimes hard to avoid
- Timeouts are probably easy possible due to the whole stage/platform layout
- Some Heavyly one-sided match-ups (??? dont know either)
- lolmk?

That should be it I think.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Same to the lava from the side, that could randomly save lifes for example

That brings some meomires back: I remember one time I randomly jumped to Falcon Pawnch someone, ended up very low, and tried desperately to recover by getting hit a couple times by the Lava Wall.... Up to today, I can't believe it worked.


Also, lava plume came, I started running towards a ledge to try to avoid it, but I tripped and it killed me. BAN.

Spoiler

j/k

 

[Life]

Lets go back to Norfair guys


So pro Ban...

- Lava can interupt gameplay
- Lava is random (??? dont know how random it is)
- Lava is damaging/killing
- When the giant lava comes the platform with the "house" gets solid, you could get randomly stage spiked by it (Not that it even happened lol, but just adding it xD)
- Same to the lava from the side, that could randomly save lifes for example
- Lava plumes are very strong and sometimes hard to avoid
- Timeouts are probably easy possible due to the whole stage/platform layout
- Some Heavyly one-sided match-ups (??? dont know either)
- lolmk?

That should be it I think.

Antiban refutations:

1. I'm not sure there is such a thing as "interrupting" gameplay. Someone else should take on this one.
2. The random elements are not overpowering and easily avoidable. We have precedent for allowing things such as this: Halberd's claw, Delfino and PS1/2's transformations come to mind.
3. Your opponent is also damaging/killing. Ban the opponent? We also have precedent for allowing damaging hazards: Halberd and Brinstar come to mind.
4. Roughly equivalent to getting gimped by SV's balloon.
5. It comes with approximately 10 seconds of warning.
6. Lava plumes are fairly easy to get around with some practice. Try shielding (your shield gets hit twice), moving out of the way, using ledge invincibility, or airdodging out if it catches you in the air.
7. MLG data contradicts any timeout-related argument. PS1 had the highest timeout rate at 4%. Norfair had one timeout in 81 matches, a 1.1% rate. Also, this line of thinking assumes timeouts are illegitimate (Gheb namesearch please, you'll want to argue this based on your stuff in the tier list) which is not really the case.
8. We also have precedent for not banning stages based on skewed matchups. Brinstar, RC, FD are common citations.
9. We had a list going of characters that like this stage. It's pretty dang long. Let me dig it up...

I'd also like to nip one more in the bud: Wario can't camp forever here. Lava walls force him to leave one side, even if you do assume that other characters cannot catch up to him.

 

[WindMajor]

Go Twinkie!! and btw that Hayley Williams pic you got there looks damn good! xD

Dude, Hayley is ALWAYS looking good!!!

Spoiler

aklffhgjkudjdfa;fdgsdfghd;lakjdflsadfhjhgjkasadfdfasdgs *explodes*

 

[xDD-Master]

Antiban refutations:

1. I'm not sure there is such a thing as "interrupting" gameplay. Someone else should take on this one.
2. The random elements are not overpowering and easily avoidable. We have precedent for allowing things such as this: Halberd's claw, Delfino and PS1/2's transformations come to mind.
3. Your opponent is also damaging/killing. Ban the opponent? We also have precedent for allowing damaging hazards: Halberd and Brinstar come to mind.
4. Roughly equivalent to getting gimped by SV's balloon.
5. It comes with approximately 10 seconds of warning.
6. Lava plumes are fairly easy to get around with some practice. Try shielding (your shield gets hit twice), moving out of the way, using ledge invincibility, or airdodging out if it catches you in the air.
7. MLG data contradicts any timeout-related argument. PS1 had the highest timeout rate at 4%. Norfair had one timeout in 81 matches, a 1.1% rate. Also, this line of thinking assumes timeouts are illegitimate (Gheb namesearch please, you'll want to argue this based on your stuff in the tier list) which is not really the case.
8. We also have precedent for not banning stages based on skewed matchups. Brinstar, RC, FD are common citations.
9. We had a list going of characters that like this stage. It's pretty dang long. Let me dig it up...

I'd also like to nip one more in the bud: Wario can't camp forever here. Lava walls force him to leave one side, even if you do assume that other characters cannot catch up to him.

Just to make sure that I'm neither directly advocating a ban or legalizing it, just someone had to do the pro-ban side so yeah

@1: ICs chaingrab you on BF/FD - No interruptions. ICs chaingrab you on Norfair, lol k (As long as it isnt one of the top platform it'll get interrupted pretty fast, maybe not fast enough anyway but dunno).
To many interruptions can be agree'd to be bad. Yes Subjective. But what isnt. So there we go.
@2: But Nofairs Actions are a lot more present then the other ones. Lets get that down, Halberd is about 40% (?) on the ship, where hazards appear, the happen roughly every 30 seconds, and beside the claw they are all VERY EASY too avoid. The lava may isnt that hard to avoid, but its easily on a level with the claw. The difference? The claw may appear once or twice in most matches. The Lava? Dunno how often, but its a lot XD
@3: There is a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig difference. We WANT the players to fight, right? The stage shouldnt be an oppenant. We just tolerate it if the degree of influence is low enough, Norfair probably isnt.
@4: Yeah.
@5: Really? Ok didnt know. Maybe it'll be in the thread. Or do you mean the camera "switch"? Then OK probably.
@6: Yes, with some practice. It know because a kinda philosophic issue. Do we really want the people to practice a lot on stages or not? Please that say that also count for other stages too, its not as if you really need to practice FD, BF, SV specific things as much, as the things you should be able to do / get around on the controversial stages. Platform Cancel is a universal tech, so that doesnt truely count
@7: Well, if people are bad, timeouts happen less, so yeah, if people actually start to train on the stage, timeouts may become a problem.
@8: Yeah I know, I also agree with that. But some people think its important too. So there we go.
@9: If nealy everyone likes it, its the same as SV. Does anyone not like SV? Not really, but are there still characters that would like to go / avoid SV because of the MU? Yes.

Dunno about Wario. I think it could be devasting in some MUs...
But not wario only. Jiggs could also be pretty nice.

 

[Tesh]

i dont know who all you people are, but didnt jebus take a set off of dehf?

 

[WindMajor]

Everyone listen to Jebus now.

He is our God. <3

 

[ぱみゅ]

Everyone listen to Jebus now.

He is our God. <3

Pun inteded?

 

[Life]

Just to make sure that I'm neither directly advocating a ban or legalizing it, just someone had to do the pro-ban side so yeah

@1: ICs chaingrab you on BF/FD - No interruptions. ICs chaingrab you on Norfair, lol k (As long as it isnt one of the top platform it'll get interrupted pretty fast, maybe not fast enough anyway but dunno).
To many interruptions can be agree'd to be bad. Yes Subjective. But what isnt. So there we go.
@2: But Nofairs Actions are a lot more present then the other ones. Lets get that down, Halberd is about 40% (?) on the ship, where hazards appear, the happen roughly every 30 seconds, and beside the claw they are all VERY EASY too avoid. The lava may isnt that hard to avoid, but its easily on a level with the claw. The difference? The claw may appear once or twice in most matches. The Lava? Dunno how often, but its a lot XD
@3: There is a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig difference. We WANT the players to fight, right? The stage shouldnt be an oppenant. We just tolerate it if the degree of influence is low enough, Norfair probably isnt.
@4: Yeah.
@5: Really? Ok didnt know. Maybe it'll be in the thread. Or do you mean the camera "switch"? Then OK probably.
@6: Yes, with some practice. It know because a kinda philosophic issue. Do we really want the people to practice a lot on stages or not? Please that say that also count for other stages too, its not as if you really need to practice FD, BF, SV specific things as much, as the things you should be able to do / get around on the controversial stages. Platform Cancel is a universal tech, so that doesnt truely count
@7: Well, if people are bad, timeouts happen less, so yeah, if people actually start to train on the stage, timeouts may become a problem.
@8: Yeah I know, I also agree with that. But some people think its important too. So there we go.
@9: If nealy everyone likes it, its the same as SV. Does anyone not like SV? Not really, but are there still characters that would like to go / avoid SV because of the MU? Yes.

Dunno about Wario. I think it could be devasting in some MUs...
But not wario only. Jiggs could also be pretty nice.

1. "Interrupting" = CP quality then? Characters that have to deal with infinites (everyone vs. ICs, DK vs. D3) can use stuff like that to not have an unwinnable matchup. Again, this is a point I'm not too good at arguing for, heh.
2. That's the thing, though. Norfair's hazards are fairly easy to navigate and/or use to your advantage. Quantity is not a problem.
3. There are a grand total of three completely static stages in the game, of which two are legal (the third is Temple). Meanwhile, there are 38 stages with moving elements. It's not something we "tolerate", it's an integral part of the game and is not on its own grounds to remove a stage. Again, Norfair's movement is not much different from any other stage's movement.
4. Cool.
5. Yeah. The camera moves to the side the wall is coming from about ten seconds before the wall appears.
6. If people are willing to practice on a stage that's viable for competition, good for them. The benefits are like a miniature version of picking up a secondary character.
7. But we can't know that if Norfair isn't legal. Pure speculation < numbers we already have. If Norfair is legal and timeouts do become problematic on the stage? Then you'll have a point. If Norfair remains banned, we'll never know that. Why ban something if we don't know to what extent it may be problematic?
8. Cool.
9. And SV is legal. QED.

I brought up Wario because DMG and maybe a couple others were claiming that Wario is uncatchable here. I find that rather hard to believe.

 

[xDD-Master]

Damn I typed my answer to 6 really bad.
Should be more like this:

@6: Yes, with some practice. It now becomes a kinda philosophical issue. Do we really want the people to practice on stages a lot or not? Because srsly, its not as if you really need to practice anything stage specific things on FD, BF, SV, at least not as much as the things you should be able to do / know / get around on the controversial stages. Platform Cancel is a universal tech, so that doesnt truely count

To answer your new post.

@1: Yeah thats kinda the point. We can argue that these things are acceptable as CP stuff, but we can also argue that no one should be forced to play on a stage that is that interrupting.
We also agree on allowing Item-CPing (1 Item per round for example - Only a specefic choice, not the broken ones), because we could also say "isnt that CP stuff?".
For example. I personally advocate the usage of a ruleset that has EVERY stage as starter, no starter/cp. But then, every stage needs to be starter material.
That is probably a 9 or 11 Stage List, nothing more. (Unity Ruleset minus RC/Brinstar imo).
Because I just draw the line between, stages that are fit for tournaments, and stages that are not. In this case norfair definitely is not fit, as you need superior knowledge about the stage, to actually be able to start fighting on it (A good fight of course).
You can transform this kinda into this subject ^^
@2: Again, idk. For example I think its easier than on brinstar, because the stage is bigger, more place to go. On the other hand, sometimes there really is a lot of lava at the same time XD
@3: Yes, its the typical "But we play Smash not Street Fighter" argument. But anyway. Just a point, maybe not so good dunno: "Would you prefer a Smash game with MANY and ONLY freezed stages or a game with MANY but ONLY moving stages?" I would prefer the first one, and thats why I would try to cut the stage list so far that these stages stay, together with other arguments that are against them, like walls, walk-offs, randomness etc.
@6: Yeah of course stage knowledge should be benefited, but if you cant compete without having at least some knowledge, than thats probably bad.
@7: Yes. Agreed. We should start with every stage allowed. But guess what? RC & Brinstar showed to be a problem in my eyes. It doesnt in the eyes of Cadet. So, there we go.
@9: Yes, but because its a good stage, not because of the match-ups

 

[WindMajor]

Wario isn't uncatchable, lol. Nor is MK.

It's just like every other campy match you see in Youtube. You trade hits over the course of the match, you just do it much more slowly. Just look at M2k vs. RichBrown, or BigLou vs. Krystedez or something and you'll see my point.


Also, ninja'd.

 

[xDD-Master]

Well I think wario is better than what most people think ^^
Wario is in my personal Top 3/4 of characters
So I probably also think that wario is better at timeouting / camping than what you think