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Stage Information Database and Q&A

ぱみゅ

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"Winner of the previous match may anounce either up to two stage bans, OR one stage ban and one character ban -except the character already chosen- for the next round."
Remember that one idea? You probably don't...
Back then, nobody could found any flawl on it.

Anyways, I just find a problem:
Loser cannot "very hard counter-pick" here, but winner can still pocket anything to counter the already weakened CP, solving nothing at all (and actually, making it even worse)...

Thinking of ways to solve this, I have many brainstorming ideas like, "if winner banned a character, loser can do as well", or "loser may bring an extra stageban in order to gain a charban for his/her opponent", but nothing seems convincing...


Too bad I'll use that one rule for a tournament tomorrow....
 

Tesh

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
9,737
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TX
Meh, I've realized that I don't really care about Picto being legal or not anymore. I think it's a little worse than Green Greens though.


It's still pretty luck based at times.
How would someone avoid walls from suddenly popping up? Only the line's and side spike's walls are really a problem.
I played a match on wifi yesterday and he tried to land on one of those side platforms after using his double jump. He did a fast fall airdodge into it just as it disappeared. Ofcourse he died at like 60%, which was pretty hilarious.
I find it interesting though, that green greens is always banned. I think its just clear that people just form their own criteria to justify banning things they dont like. Green Greens random factor is as isolated (far more even) than Yoshi's Island. Most people just don't like it because of the blast zones and the assumed issue with the walls. As far as real issues though, I think its like Japes+YI:M.
 

SaveMeJebus

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Messages
4,371
I think the reason FD got more bans than than Brinstar and RC is because players have to choose whether to ban either Rainbow or Brinstar since they can't ban both. Those two stages, when combined, have more bans than FD combined with any other starter stage.
 

BSP

Smash Legend
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
10,246
Location
Louisiana
Tesh, don't forget that match where I went for the spring after it appeared to aid you, only to fall to my death :awesome:
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
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Another status update: Only 0.5 more sections to complete on the Norfair guide before I start on Legality. FFFFF this is sooo close.
 

ぱみゅ

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"Winner of the previous match may anounce either up to two stage bans, OR one stage ban and one character ban -except the character already chosen- for the next round."
Remember that one idea? You probably don't...
Back then, nobody could found any flawl on it.

Anyways, I just find a problem:
Loser cannot "very hard counter-pick" here, but winner can still pocket anything to counter the already weakened CP, solving nothing at all (and actually, making it even worse)...

Thinking of ways to solve this, I have many brainstorming ideas like, "if winner banned a character, loser can do as well", "if winner banned a character lose may ban one character as well", or "loser may bring an extra stageban in order to gain a charban for his/her opponent", but nothing seems convincing...

Too bad I'll use that one rule for a tournament tomorrow....
aaaaand I used it....

Outcome was amazing, most people choosed to ban 1 stage and 1 character rather than 2 stages (unless MK were chosen, or they knew opponent only used 1 character).
People started banning MetaKnight, Ice Climbers and... Pikachu? being the first one the most obvious character-ban case (we do not have any DK to ban DDD, tho).

Also, that one problem mentioned in the second quote, people who picked a secondary were forced to win in order to change their character, and winner could do whatever they wanted to...

You people said that the problem you found on this one rule was that MK would be chosen first everytime. And it was. And I wanted it to be like that.
GrandFinals, among a Wario and a Pikachu mains were Wario-MK on first set, and full MK dittos on second set... That one was interesting...

I really want to find alternatives and fix any possible problem before thinking on a straight ban, you guys may help with that.



On a side note, I used FLOSSing with the 13 Unity Stages, and the option of choose any stage instead of doing that.
Most people just picked FD, BF or SV (and WiFi Training Room were used once).

When FLOSS were actually done, people played on SV (obvious), Lylat, PS1, PS2, Delfino (surprisingly often) and, iirc, one was on Orpheon.



I couldn't register any of these and I cannot bring actual data... Sorry about that.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVw0ZhWY9Xo&feature=feedu

clear demonstration of the broken cave of life on yi:m
I hope that one was not serious....
 

ぱみゅ

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After a couple experiences, rewordings and ideas that needs to be tested and corrected, I can present the version 2.0 of my ruleset (still, has no name).

v2.0 (08/01/2011)
First off, the Ruleset prime:
-Everything in the game should remain as it is, unless it is proven to impede any confrontation. In this case, they are either limited or banned, depending on the severity or potential abuse of the action itself.
-Characters are priority. If something can be done with certain character to another, it shall be allowed. In the same fashion, as long as it cannot be used to stall out the timer, any character technique is allowed. If any of these can become a problem, they are limited or banned.


Now, the ruleset:

Game Settings
Stocks: 3
Timer: 09:00 minutes
Items are set on OFF and NONE
Pause: OFF
Team Attack: ON

Before Game One
1. One player is chosen at random, via a Coin toss, a Rock-Paper-Scissors game, or whatever method they agree. Winner chooses if either chooses Ports first or makes the First Stage Strike*. The non-chosen option is given to the other part.
2. If needed, any Controller adjustments or settings are made.
3. Players select their characters.
3.1. If this selection isn't made quickly, a Double Blind Pick (telling their choice to a judge, both MUST choose the character they told him/her they would) may be called.
3.2. In the case that a part choses Lucario, Pokemon Trainer or Sonic, they can call for use a specific color. If both bands uses any of them, the one that selected ports first has preference on color selection as well.
4. Stage Striking procedure begins.*
4.1. If both parts agree, they can choose any stage to play in, instead of the Strike proccess.
5. Game starts in the stage chosen in 4.

The Game
  • The one who loses their 3 stocks first Loses de Game.
  • Stalling (the act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict for long periods) is banned.**
  • Any Glitch/Bug/Exploit that can be used to stall out the timer excessively, or that causes any game malfunction, interruption or freeze, is forbidden.**
  • Any Lock/Infinite must end as soon as possible after reaching 300%. Otherwise, it might be considered as stalling.
  • If the timer runs out, the one with more Stocks left is declared the winner. If both are the same, the one with less damage is the winner. If still even, a Rematch Game*** is played.
  • If a Sudden Death is forced because of both players finishing their stocks at the same time, a Rematch Game*** is played.
  • [Doubles] Sharing Stock is allowed.
  • In the event of a Timeout involving a Metaknight occurs, a player may call the revision of the “Ledge Grabs” statistic at the results screen. If the Meta Knight player exceeded 40, the victory is given to their opponent. If both are Meta Knight and both exceeded it, the one with less Ledge Grabs is considered the winner. If neither did, the stock-damage rule is followed. If the suspicious player doesn't allow this statistic to be revised, the win may be assigned to their opponent. If both are still the same, winner is chosen at random.

[*]Any non-compliance on these points can (and should) be reported to a judge/TO. The penalty of those is entirely their decision and players involved must abide them.

After Game One
  1. Loser may ask for rearrange controller ports, choosing his/hers first.
  2. Winner might announce up to 3 stage bans from the Stagelist, OR 2 stage bans and 1 character ban -except the already chosen one- for the next match.
    2.1. If winner decieded to ban any character, loser may announce one character to ban as well -except the already chosen one-
  3. Winner choses character, except the one named in 2.
  4. Loser choses character, except the one named in 2.
  5. Loser choses any Stage from the Stagelist, except any of the ones mentioned in 2.
  6. Next game starts.
  7. Repeat as many times as necessary until the Best-of-3 or Best-of-5 is decided.

*** "Infinite Dimensional Cape" is an example of these.

** A Rematch Game is made in order to get a winner for the previous match by starting a 1-stock, 3-minutes game, with the same characters, on the same stage it was.
If a player loses his/her stock, loses the game.
If rematch ends with the timer, the one with less damage is declared as the winner.
If rematch ends with the timer, both players are subject of the "Meta Knight Ledge Grabs Limit" rules already stated before, changing this limit to 15, regardless their characters

* For Stage Striking, is the usage of the Random Stage Screen is recommended, by turning every stage on the Legal list as “on”, and then change them to "off" as they are stroke. The goal of this is remove, one by one, all stages until only one is left. From the given 21 stage list, the first player strikes 4, then, from the 17 stages left the second player strikes 4; then the first player strikes 3, the second one 3, the first 2, the second 2, the first 1, and finally, the second strikes 1. If done correctly, there should be only 1 stage left.

StageList:
01- Battlefield
02- Final Destination
03- Delfino Plaza
04- Pirate Ship
05- Norfair
06- Frigate Orpheon
07- Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
08- Battleship Halberd
09- Lylat Cruise
10- Pokémon Stadium 2
11- Port Town Aero Drive
12- Castle Siege
13- Distant Planet
14- Smashville
15- Pictochat
16- Yoshi's Island (Melee)
17- Jungle Japes
18- Green Greens
19- Rainbow Cruise
20- Brinstar
21- Pokémon Stadium (Melee)

Stage Ban Criteria:
If a stage contains any of the following elements, it will be considered banned from the stagelist:
[Permanent Wall] Allows inescapable setups in most cases and helps to rack up high amounts of damage, even if skill is not involved.
[Permanent Flat Walk-off] Creates a high risk-high reward situation, and/or an easy way to take stocks via Chain-Throwing; any of them is unsuitable for competitive play. However, if there's a slope that leads to the walkoff, these situations can be avoided in most cases, so they're allowed.
[Ceilings] When a non-passable platform is above the lowest one allows characters to live up to very high damages, even if there's no DI/Tech Skill involved. This doesn’t fit in competitive play.
[Permanent Circle] “Camping” is avoiding battle by staying in a certain spot. "Circle Camping" is defined as the action of avoid direct confrontation by moving through the stage layout while staying away from their opponents. This is banned since it might be considered stalling.
[Randomness] Whenever a stage contains any random/hazardous element that cannot be avoided in any way (it affects/hits 100% of the time it is activated), it shall be banned. Other than that, any random/hazardous element is ignored as for ban criteria. Only features with “unavoidable” characteristic are Wario Ware’s Judgments (bonuses after each mini-game) and Rumble Falls' Speed Ups.

Banned Stages:
Luigi’s Mansion [Ceiling]
Mushroomy Kingdom [Walkoff]
Mario Circuit [Walkoff]
Rumble Falls [Randomness]
Bridge of Eldin [Walkoff]
Spear Pillar [Ceiling/Circle]
Wario Ware [Randomness]
New Pork Town [Ceiling/Circle]
Skyworld [Ceiling]
Summit [Ceiling/Circle]
75m. [Circle]
Mario Bros. [Ceiling/Walkoff]
Flat Zone 2 [Walkoff]
Hanenbow [Circle]
Shadow Mosses Island [Wall/Walkoff]
Green Hills Zone [Walkoff]
Temple [Wall/Ceiling/Circle]
Onett [Walkoff]
Corneria [Wall]
Big Blue [Circle]


The TL;DR (with justifications)
[some of these rules may change as this ruleset is tested]
Stocks: 3
Timer: 9mins [roughly 3 minutes per stock]
Pause: OFF [Reallistically people wouldn't need to pause except in the case of an emergency. In this case, resolution should be TO discression]
No items.

Before game 1: chose chars first, then start Stage Strike.
FULL 21-STAGE LIST STRIKE
(1-1-1-1-2-2-2-2-1-1-1-2-2-2-1-1-2-2-1-2) [see below]

Before game 2 and further: [in experimentation phase]
-Winner bans up to 3 stages, or up to two and one character.
-If character was banned by winner, loser may ban one character as well.
-winner picks char, then loser picks char
-stage is chosen

-Timeout: Stock/damage
-Both ending stocks at the same time or tied on stock/damage, results in a rematch.
-LGL: 40, MetaKnight only [the only one mathematically perfect] if they're even at the very end, winner is chosen at random.
-Infinites must end ASAP @300%. [300% because is the SuddenDeath amount, so it's basically the game itself saying that is the time for the "final blow"].
-In a rematch, a 15 LGL applies the same for every character.

Da StageList:
Battlefield
Final D
Delfino
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Orpheon
YI:B
Halberd
Lylat
PS2
PTAD
Siege
DPlanet
Smashville
Picto
YI:M
Japes
Green Greens
Rainbow
Brinstar
PS1

Ban criteria:
ONLY permanent wall, perma flat walkoff, perma ceiling, perma circle and unavoidable randomness. Everything else is allowed.
PTAD doesn't fall for any criteria.
GGs may fall under Circle. Innocent until proven bannable.
YI:M may fall under Ceiling. Innocent until proven bannable.
Sloped walk-offs may or not be ban-worthy. Needs testing



And that's basically it.
Needs lots of testing.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
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I disagree with the concept of banning stages based on certain attributes instead of looking at every stage individually and gauging whether it is competitive or not. For example, because of your criteria, Onett (a perfectly legitimate stage) is banned.

Hanenbow doesn't fall under any of your criteria, by the way.
 

ぱみゅ

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Onett is acutally one of my favourite stages, and I push for it to become legal everytime. I just had to be cosistent with the criteria.
If there says that any hazard is ignored (is never considered good or bad), so cars are null and Onett should stay banned.

And I know Hanenbow Circle is debatable (first time I was writing this ruleset I forgot to unclude it, lol). But I need an odd number, so... I just took the easiest way out.
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
10,050
We need a better criteria than that.

Also, falling asleep during the day and waking up at 2AM is not good when you're sick. :urg:
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
4,665
Location
Australia
There is criteria for whether something is competitive or not lol.

But yea it's better to look at each stage individually.
 

chaosmaster1991

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Messages
140
Location
Germany
Sorry, that was stupid of me. You need criteria, but the only criteria should be "is this competitive?" No other criteria matters.
What is your criteria for whether something is competitive then?

There is criteria for whether something is competitive or not lol.

But yea it's better to look at each stage individually.
You still need some overall criteria though. If you have to ban a stage based on them that you think should be legal, you have to go back and look at whether your criteria are what you wanted them to be, maybe rephrase them and then go through all stages with those new criteria again. If you deem your criteria as correct, then the stage should in fact be banned, regardless of what you feel.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
It's really simple, actually, ask yourself this question: "Can this stage determine a winner to a level of consistency that I am happy with?"

Some stages, like Temple, would NOT fit this criteria unless the TO has really loose standards. At the height of the meta-game, a player cannot consistently win on Temple, because the game becomes "solved" (it's the same reason Tic-Tac-Toe isn't competitive, it's so easy that everyone can actually become perfect at it).

But then we take a stage like Smashville which obviously hasn't been solved yet and we can say without a shred of doubt that the stage isn't broken.

The only problem that arises are things like walk-offs, where it hasn't been proven whether walk-off camping is actually an issue or not. These grey areas should be tested, and then their legality should be determined.

Simple enough, no?
 

chaosmaster1991

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Messages
140
Location
Germany
It's really simple, actually, ask yourself this question: "Can this stage determine a winner to a level of consistency that I am happy with?"

Some stages, like Temple, would NOT fit this criteria unless the TO has really loose standards. At the height of the meta-game, a player cannot consistently win on Temple, because the game becomes "solved" (it's the same reason Tic-Tac-Toe isn't competitive, it's so easy that everyone can actually become perfect at it).

Simple enough, no?
I disagree. It would be a matter of picking MK/maybe Sonic/maybe Fox, get the first hit and then circle camp for 8 minutes, but the results would, theoretically, be consistent.
 

ぱみゅ

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Looking at every stage individually leads to personal preference. I do not like personal preference when decieding legal stages, because anyone can literally do whatever they'd want to.

I just tried to be as objective as possible here, even banning a stage -or several- I personally think are fine. Had to be done in order to be consistent.
 

Panta

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 5, 2011
Messages
25
Just wondering, but why isn't the stage builder utilized to create stages that are designed more for the competitive factor rather than the party factor?

I know a couple of other branches of MLG use custom designed stages, after extensive testing of course, and Brawl does have that wifi file sharing ability.
 

T-block

B2B TST
Joined
Jan 11, 2009
Messages
11,841
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
Mostly because of logistical reasons. It's difficult to achieve any sort of standardization with custom stages... players don't like to have to come into a tournament and adapt to a stage they've never seen before.

Of course, it's entirely possible to make it widely available, and it's been done before (midwest had three custom stages on their circuit for a while), but usually that's what deters TOs from using them.
 

ぱみゅ

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I'd wish some of you were on the LA forum.... is like debating stages with a japanese....
 

Panta

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 5, 2011
Messages
25
http://supersmashbros.ign.com/articles/features/62/How-to-Share-Stages/

Doesn't seem that hard. I don't know the mechanics of the Wii wifi with regards to sharing stages, but if the BBR wanted to they could create stages for testing. Once a stage has passed the testing point, a YouTube video demonstrating the creation of a stage could be made for the General Public. The Wii's wifi capabilities could also be used to further disseminate the new stage. And if all else fails a few TOs could buy 6 dollar SD cards, put the stage on all the SD cards and then use those for the newly created stage. It sounds like not much thought was given to this idea. Of course, I am not exactly the person to talk as I am not really involved in the competitive community, but seeing the same stages over and over is stale. Seeing the same reasons as to why those stages are the only ones legal is stale. One of Brawls's aspects that sets it apart from other fighting games is the difference in stages. I feel like this is lost potential.

:phone:
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
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You don't even need to buy a ton of SD cards, just have one SD card, and go around to each Wii, copying it onto the Wii console itself.
 
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