Stage Information Database and Q&A

[Life]

SMJ: Apparently, they're actually pretty friendly with each other IRL or something. I assume that's because they don't talk about their online disputes. Ignoring would be the perfect way to bring these high tempers into the real world and sabotage a decent, if somewhat vitriolic friendship. That's why they don't, as I understand it. Tell me if I'm wrong.

Akuma:
re: illogical =/= wrong

Should we, when we see something that could be _easily_ improved, improve it? Obviously, right? And banning or not banning Brinstar is not difficult (deciding which is the better route is the tricky part). So you can't dodge the question by arguing subjectivity--it is wrong to not improve something that can be improved. Or to put it another way: is it better to leave something inferior alone than to fix it?

Using an illogical ruleset trivializes competition; when competition is trivialized, bad players have a significant chance of taking down better players, which simply should not be. To trivialize competition is to do a disservice to better players. If you flip enough birds at said better players, they'll leave and the worse players will not have anyone to learn from--you'd do them a disservice, too. In other words, if you use an illogical ruleset, everybody loses, providing only that the better players are also logical (yeah, about that...)

A stagelist without Brinstar is not the same as a stagelist with Brinstar. One must be better than the other. (Arguing against that is literally the same as arguing that tiers don't exist. Call it strawmanning, but the same arguments apply, near as I can tell. I can explain further if you like.) You could argue "I don't really care which is better", but if that were true, you would not be here.

Now, to the fun part.

Does banning Brinstar improve the stagelist? Or, put another way, does Brinstar trivialize competition?

If the answer is no, you have no case in the first place (but you wouldn't be arguing if you thought it was no). If the answer is yes, it would be responsible to tell us why. Remember that this is, from your angle, an easy improvement to the stagelist.

We ban stages for two reasons: they make certain tactics overpowered (circle camping stages, many items) or they cause overly random outcomes (WarioWare, the rest of the items). In other words, stages become banworthy by trivializing competition.

Brinstar is, as far as I can tell, more or less nonrandom (there might be slight timer deviations, not really sure); to argue it's too random also hoses YI:B, Frigate, Delfino, Lylat, PS1, PS2, SV, and CS--pretty much the entire list. It's pretty safe to say that randomness is not the problem on Brinstar.

So I ask you: what overpowering tactic is present on Brinstar? (We all know the most obvious answer, but this is getting long and I want to give you a chance to argue with the above before I waste time arguing for the stage itself.)

tl;dr If you think the game is better without Brinstar, back it up.

"Hey guys, being illogical doesn't make you wrong, so we should ban Brinstar!"
[collapse="In the words of the one and only Budget Player Cadet_:"][/collapse](One last thing: calling BPC "wrong" and then saying "nobody is right or wrong" is rather self-defeating.)

 

[cHp]

So let me get this straight.

M2K is really good at gimping people
+
He's playing MK's best stage in the matchup he's probably most comfortable in (the ditto)
+
Ally, while talented, has not been an MK main nearly as long as M2K has
=
Ally gets 2stocked (notably not 3-stocked like a "broken" stage should cause)

And apparently this is the stage's fault?

Just to let you know, "DIE!" is ally not m2k...

 

[xDD-Master]

@InferiorityComplex: Sry but my english isnt good enough to understand everything.

But I see what you want from me, you want me too show why I dont want Brinstar or in other words, why I think that Brinstar is bad for our competitive scene.

Well there are multiple reasons, its all combined that makes it that worse in our actual ruleset (It would probably fit into another ruleset).

Thing is, Brinstar has a stupid layout (That is of course kinda subjective). With that I mean the uneven ground for example. Then there are the pillars. Then its the non-solid ground which provotes tactics like sharking.

But the most obvious thing of course if the acid. Probably a stage like Lavaville (You may know it), would be OK. It still would be a bit borderline, but its better than Brinstar/Norfair in many ways.

The acid gets worse due to the stage layout. Brinstar is very small compared to other stages.
Especially when the acid is everywhere beside the one platform, that is VERY bad.
The stage limits your options by degree that is just not acceptable.

You have to give up zoning/spacing because of the acid.
Your recovery gets messed up due to the acid.

But I guess, you dont see it.
You probably dont mind those things. But I do.
And I think its a very bad stage to test skills, because the stage just ****s up a lot.

I hope you understand.

(One last thing: calling BPC "wrong" and then saying "nobody is right or wrong" is rather self-defeating.)

What I mean when I say this, is, that its wrong to think there is an objectively better ruleset. BPC is wrong with this, because there isnt. He is also wrong with his "your stage list is wrong".



Oh and btw., we see removing brinstar as an improve, so whats your point lol

When I say illogical ruleset, I mean something like this: "We dont want the stage to hurt the players directly (Damage/Kill)" and then banning Brinstar, but leaving Norfair for example.

It still doesnt say if its better or worse, because you just cant tell, but you can easily tell, and THAT is a fact, that that action is illogical. You could also say, that keeping Norfair in that case, is wrong under that reasoning for banning Brinstar.

You understand?

It still doesnt have to mean that the stage list is wrong or bad.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

NO ONE IS RIGHT OR WRONG!!!
Why doesnt that go into your head? god damn.

There is no right or wrong stage list.
There are only logical/good-reasoned ones and illogical/bad-reasoned ones.

But when its the latter, it still isnt wrong.

A self-contradicting ruleset is worse than a non-self-contradicting ruleset. The criteria you gave me for banning Brinstar applies to any stage that moves in one way or another.

All I want you to do is that you did not have a reason to ban Brinstar. If you can just admit that your banning of brinstar is based on popular support and nothing more, then maybe I'd stop being so pissed and just admit that there's nothing I can do because you were never grounded in solid logic in the first place. As long as you want to uphold this semblence of legitimacy, I feel almost obliged to reveal it as intellectually dishonest. Like I said, this new ruleset is an example of everything that's wrong with European rulesets, and even just based on your criteria, I think Delfino and Frigate are next, along with Halberd and possibly PS1 and PS2. I know, I know, "I'm crazy", but I swear I'm going to force-feed you guys those words in under half a year when we ban Frigate due to the repeated and consistent disruptions to "gameplay".

Also, I'm sorry if I come across as disrespectful. I just get really angry really fast about issues like this, and I don't look forward to Germany turning the rest of Europe into Japan 2.0, just without the insane skill. I don't mean any harm to you, and I apologize for being a **** about this... But it just can't work this way. We can't keep banning stages. We can't say "we don't like this, so we get rid of it" and treat it as reasonable.

 

[xDD-Master]

Not liking and therefore banning is a pretty god damn good reason if you ask me.

Why playing the game, if you dont like it?
Why playing with a stupid ruleset, if you dont like it?

How about, no one would go to tournaments in Germany, if rulesets would be like you suggest?

But anyway, I still find it sad, that you cant see how some people could want Brinstar banned.
Srsly. From all stages that are allowed atm in Germany, brinstar is soooo much worse in many ways.

We will never start banning Delfino, Fregate, PS1 or Halberd. I personally could see YI and probably Halberd & PS2 being banned, for several reasons. But thats another story. AND thats never gonna happen.
The general Opinion is to keep the stages as they are now, and probably adding more in the future. But atm, we are pretty happy with the turnout of our ruleset

 

[Yikarur]

that YI hate =(

 

[Life]

Akuma, the thing about the acid is that it is highly predictable. It does force you to change your spacing on occasion. That's the point. Brinstar's acid requires skill to deal with; on a static stage like BF you have to space against your opponent--on Brinstar, you have to space against your opponent while also watching the acid. That word that BPC's trying really hard not to use, "scrub"? Any random player can either avoid the acid or use it to their advantage. If you'd rather ban the acid than learn to deal with it, that is the textbook behavior of a "scrub". Sorry.

Here, I was expecting something about MK being broken.

Also, there's a lot of Germany in this thread 0_o

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Akuma, the thing about the acid is that it is highly predictable. It does force you to change your spacing on occasion. That's the point. Brinstar's acid requires skill to deal with; on a static stage like BF you have to space against your opponent--on Brinstar, you have to space against your opponent while also watching the acid. That word that BPC's trying really hard not to use, "scrub"? Any random player can either avoid the acid or use it to their advantage. If you'd rather ban the acid than learn to deal with it, that is the textbook behavior of a "scrub". Sorry.

Here, I was expecting something about MK being broken.

Hate to break it to ya, but he's right. He's 100% correct.

 

[Life]

Talkin' to me or Akuma?

just to be clear

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You're the one who's right.

 

[Tesh]

BPC defines "right" as anyone that agrees with his ideals.

 

[xDD-Master]

Akuma, the thing about the acid is that it is highly predictable. It does force you to change your spacing on occasion. That's the point. Brinstar's acid requires skill to deal with; on a static stage like BF you have to space against your opponent--on Brinstar, you have to space against your opponent while also watching the acid. That word that BPC's trying really hard not to use, "scrub"? Any random player can either avoid the acid or use it to their advantage. If you'd rather ban the acid than learn to deal with it, that is the textbook behavior of a "scrub". Sorry.

Here, I was expecting something about MK being broken.

Well MK being broken on it is just another thing that makes this stage bad.
You can of course argue that ICs are broken on FD too.
But ICs arent the best, most used blah bla character.
And dont forget, that you have 1 strike.
YES, that could be said about brinstar too, BUT! if you have 2 broken stages in your ruleset, that completely destroys the meaning of banning at all.
Playing an MK/ICs player, you will nearly 100% loose his CP, which is just stupid.
And as FD is the better stage BY FAR, of course we are keeping it. (And FD is less broken then many people want it to be).

Keep in mind, that I often lined out, that brinstar is in our actual ruleset not acceptable, it might be in a different one.
The actual reasons or easily the stage interference and you just cant deny that.
You cant say, "adapt to the acid", thats just not possible, when fighting an oppenant at the same time.
In the Genesis2 Grand Finals, the acid was at the highest point, 2 times in the first minute. And then again 1 or 2 minutes later.
THIS COMPLETELY DESTROYS EVERY ZONING/SPACING!!! (And is stupid).

Ban Brinstar.

 

[Yikarur]

FD is not even that broken for ICs, they are far from unbeatable.

and I wouldn't ban Brinstar for acid reason, I think brinstar should be banned because it breaks the entire counterpick System (you are never ever allowed to counterpick brinstar because you could encounter MK)

Brinstar is so much fun to play and no problem at all in actual gameplay :/

 

[John12346]

"Metaknight's just too good on our perfectly acceptable stages! Let's ban 'em!"

 

[Yikarur]

I would rather ban MK though but Brinstar ban is easier enforced because the stage has so much hate here in germany. :x

I love playing on brinstar =(

 

[John12346]

Brinstar's a really cool stage. Almost every character has some kind of neat trick they can do on that stage and I honestly have no gripes being taken there by any character not named Metaknight...

Also your example of ICs commonly losing on FD is true, btw. I've beaten ICs here in NY on FD, plus I've seen ICs lose on FD in bigger tournaments; to MK, no less...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Playing an MK/ICs player, you will nearly 100% loose his CP, which is just stupid.

...So you admit that FD is broken?

And as FD is the better stage BY FAR, of course we are keeping it. (And FD is less broken then many people want it to be).

'Cept that you still have the same issue with stages like Delfino, Frigate, Halberd... Funny thing, actually: at MLG, MK had the highest win ratios not on Brinstar or RC, but on halberd. It was at its worst on frigate. But that's beside the point. You're essentially keeping a "broken" stage in the game because "You can just ban it". You'd admit to this. So basically we should be banning FD every set on the off chance that someone picks ICs (just like we should be banning Brinstar every set).

Keep in mind, that I often lined out, that brinstar is in our actual ruleset not acceptable, it might be in a different one.

You mean like the one that not only has Brinstar, but also RC legal?

Brinstar worked. There was nothing wrong with the old German standard. Absolutely nothing. Just like there's nothing wrong with the unity ruleset, which is even more "hyperliberalized".

The actual reasons or easily the stage interference and you just cant deny that.
You cant say, "adapt to the acid", thats just not possible, when fighting an oppenant at the same time.

Get better and stop *****ing about it. You're just wrong.

In the Genesis2 Grand Finals, the acid was at the highest point, 2 times in the first minute. And then again 1 or 2 minutes later.
THIS COMPLETELY DESTROYS EVERY ZONING/SPACING!!! (And is stupid).

You know what's funny? The same thing happens on frigate every few minutes. The stage resets the momentum of the match. And I'd argue that this isn't something that we should be complaining about. Why? Lemme explain...

There are basically two major positions in brawl: neutral states and non-neutral states. The former is where someone is camping and someone has to approach; the latter is present in cases such as juggles, combos, edgeguarding, ledge traps, and the like. What different stages do, however, is place different emphasis on different states. When a stage constantly forces a reset to the "neutral" state (such as is the case on stages like Brinstar, Frigate, and PTAD), it simply puts more emphasis on footsies and approaching, rather than on juggling, trapping, and the like. And this is perfectly valid, and designed into gameplay. This is nothing new; if you compare characters you find similar differences. Snake almost always wants to be in a neutral state, while Marth essentially lives off of Non-neutral states. MK excels at both, but especially at forcing a non-neutral state to continue even when something would've interrupted it. The other way around as well; while a juggle started with marth may lead to 50%+ on Snake, DK, or ROB, it may only deal 10-20 to an MK who knows what he's doing, if you understand what I mean. This variance is already present within the cast.
By banning stages that do that, especially because they do that, you overemphasize the non-neutral states artificially throughout the ruleset, and, yes, artificially weaken approaching. That's a gameplay change that I feel should not be supported in any way. In any case, you certainly can't argue that what Brinstar does (forcing a reset) is a banworthy trait.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I watched that match live. (As in I was at that tournament)

I'm not sure what was going on with M2K, maybe sleep johns or something. It was pretty hard to get sleep in that venue, since I'm pretty sure he slept there (though I think he claimed one of the two couches there).

But the stage was not why he lost.



Also considering it was HIS CP.

 

[Life]

You cant say, "adapt to the acid", thats just not possible, when fighting an oppenant at the same time.

Let me put it this way.

When you say something like this, and MY gut reaction is "get better"... you've got a problem.

Go find a friend, take thirty minutes, and play some Brinstar. The acid is not a problem, you are just bad. And that's coming from a guy who.... well, look at my sig. srsly.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Uh... That guy is 6th in Germany. Just thought I'd point that out.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Germany is **** though.

Germany vs. Australia crew battles, you game?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Being a good player does not mean you are right about what the rules of the game should be. Just thought I'd point that out.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Odd thing is MK has a higher win % on Delfino and Halberd compared to Brinstar and Cruise if I'm reading the MLG data right

 

[Life]

Uh... That guy is 6th in Germany. Just thought I'd point that out.

And I'm like 897325928th in Pittsburgh. That's part of the irony. There is NO reason somebody on Akuma's level should be having problems with the acid--if I can man up and deal with it, anyone can.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I know the pattern only because I read the Brinstar thread and learned it from there.

Funny enough pattern is the same in melee so I learned it there as well.

 

[Life]

I kinda know it instinctually, /shrug

 

[xDD-Master]

You guys are so dump.
Hell, even M2K and Ally get hit by the Acid like 10 times per Match on Brinstar.
You just cant use the "get better" argument when even the BEST US PLAYERS USING THIS ****ING RULESET EVERY WEEK MORE THAN ONCE get hit by it.

...So you admit that FD is broken?

This is WHAT YOU THINK. I dont agree with that

'Cept that you still have the same issue with stages like Delfino, Frigate, Halberd... Funny thing, actually: at MLG, MK had the highest win ratios not on Brinstar or RC, but on halberd. It was at its worst on frigate. But that's beside the point. You're essentially keeping a "broken" stage in the game because "You can just ban it". You'd admit to this. So basically we should be banning FD every set on the off chance that someone picks ICs (just like we should be banning Brinstar every set).

Nononono, Delfino, Fregate, Halberd arent that good for MK srsly. And again, we dont ban stages because of MK alone, it just adds to all the other problems.

You mean like the one that not only has Brinstar, but also RC legal?

No, more like the one where you first pick characters and then ban stages / cp and if RC is allowed too probably one where you have more than one ban.

Brinstar worked. There was nothing wrong with the old German standard. Absolutely nothing. Just like there's nothing wrong with the unity ruleset, which is even more "hyperliberalized".

I told you ONCE and I will now do it again.
STOP. SPITTING. LIES.
This is not true. Stop that bull**** once and for all.
When I heard about 20 times at a tournament how random, stupid and gay brinstar is. And when nearly everyone bans it, because they refuse to play on the stage, then it is a problem and therefore should be banned.

Get better and stop *****ing about it. You're just wrong.

OK again. When even the best players fail to play properly on this stage, WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG IN YOUR HECK???
You remember how I 2 stocked you on PTAD? Did you forgot?
Yes, I can play on stupid stages like Brinstar, that argument doesnt hold water.
Srsly, the stage is the problem, not the players.

You know what's funny? The same thing happens on frigate every few minutes. The stage resets the momentum of the match. And I'd argue that this isn't something that we should be complaining about. Why? Lemme explain...

Except that on fregate it happens every FEW MINUTES. While on Brinstar it happens every 10 to 20 Seconds, and sometimes for about 5 seconds long, while on Fregate it only is one short moment. This is completely different and you are dumb if saying otherwise.

There are basically two major positions in brawl: neutral states and non-neutral states. The former is where someone is camping and someone has to approach; the latter is present in cases such as juggles, combos, edgeguarding, ledge traps, and the like. What different stages do, however, is place different emphasis on different states. When a stage constantly forces a reset to the "neutral" state (such as is the case on stages like Brinstar, Frigate, and PTAD), it simply puts more emphasis on footsies and approaching, rather than on juggling, trapping, and the like. And this is perfectly valid, and designed into gameplay. This is nothing new; if you compare characters you find similar differences. Snake almost always wants to be in a neutral state, while Marth essentially lives off of Non-neutral states. MK excels at both, but especially at forcing a non-neutral state to continue even when something would've interrupted it. The other way around as well; while a juggle started with marth may lead to 50%+ on Snake, DK, or ROB, it may only deal 10-20 to an MK who knows what he's doing, if you understand what I mean. This variance is already present within the cast.
By banning stages that do that, especially because they do that, you overemphasize the non-neutral states artificially throughout the ruleset, and, yes, artificially weaken approaching. That's a gameplay change that I feel should not be supported in any way. In any case, you certainly can't argue that what Brinstar does (forcing a reset) is a banworthy trait.

Neutral State >>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-neutral State.
We should aim that. We want to aim that. We do aim that. We keep stages that are tolerable. Brinstar isnt. We ban it.

 

[Yikarur]

he can't quote you like that.

instead of answering in colors in the quote you should "[ / quote]" after and [ quote] before each part.
in this way, he can't really answer to your points directly due to this boards quoting system.

 

[xDD-Master]

Ehm ok lemme fix it a bit

E: Fixed.

 

[Life]

"Handling the acid" =/= "never getting hit by the acid". Remember, part of "handling the acid" is knowing when to use it to your advantage, such as pushing your opponent off a platform into it, spiking them into it, using it to recover, etc.

 

[xDD-Master]

"Handling the acid" =/= "never getting hit by the acid". Remember, part of "handling the acid" is knowing when to use it to your advantage, such as pushing your opponent off a platform into it, spiking them into it, using it to recover, etc.

Thats just as stupid as getting hit by it on accident, which also happens a lot to even the best players.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You guys are so dump.
Hell, even M2K and Ally get hit by the Acid like 10 times per Match on Brinstar.
You just cant use the "get better" argument when even the BEST US PLAYERS USING THIS ****ING RULESET EVERY WEEK MORE THAN ONCE get hit by it.

Sometimes it's simply the best option in the situation. Let's look at that CoT5 match again.
5:55, Ally gets hit by the lava. Smart move, it saves him from dying after that amazing gimp at the start.
6:02, M2K makes a mistake and runs into the lava. Could've been a mispress, could've just been not thinking about it.
6:08, Ally... jumps right into the lava that had been there for a good few seconds already...

Huh. Weird. You know what this kinda reminds me of?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB0bGWV9iA4

Two top players play on a stage with telegraphed, timed hazards, and they both fail miserably.

Also, I counted a grand total of 5 hits in the lava.

No, more like the one where you first pick characters and then ban stages / cp and if RC is allowed too probably one where you have more than one ban.

When I say "no problem", I mean actual problems. I mean the metagame going down the tubes, I mean competition becoming excessively cheapened. I don't mean scrubs *****ing and whining.

I told you ONCE and I will now do it again.
STOP. SPITTING. LIES.
This is not true. Stop that bull**** once and for all.
When I heard about 20 times at a tournament how random, stupid and gay brinstar is. And when nearly everyone bans it, because they refuse to play on the stage, then it is a problem and therefore should be banned.

See above. I don't give two ****s about scrubs *****ing and whining. They'll *****, they'll whine, they'll ban Brinstar, I'll offer them some cheese, and they'll go on with the damn set. Or, in some cases, they won't ban Brinstar and I'll usually end up picking something else anyways.

Scrubs will complain about any little thing that makes it hard for them to win. At the last smashfest, I heard a player complaining about MK being broken, because he lost to an MK... who did nothing but spam upB all day long. Should we listen to him and ban MK because his upB is broken? Oh hell no.

OK again. When even the best players fail to play properly on this stage, WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG IN YOUR HECK???
You remember how I 2 stocked you on PTAD? Did you forgot?
Yes, I can play on stupid stages like Brinstar, that argument doesnt hold water.
Srsly, the stage is the problem, not the players.

Uh... No. Look, I'm sorry, but if you can't adapt to the acid (like all the rest of us do), then that makes you bad. Perhaps this doesn't apply to you... In which case I ask, why are you claiming people can't adapt to it?

Except that on fregate it happens every FEW MINUTES. While on Brinstar it happens every 10 to 20 Seconds, and sometimes for about 5 seconds long, while on Fregate it only is one short moment. This is completely different and you are dumb if saying otherwise.

Haven't quite gotten your facts straight on this one. Every 10-20 seconds is a severe overestimation.

Neutral State >>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-neutral State.
We should aim that. We want to aim that. We do aim that. We keep stages that are tolerable. Brinstar isnt. We ban it.

...My point being that what stages like Brinstar, Frigate, and PTAD do is force a reset to that neutral state. Please re-read the argument; the way you're putting it makes it sound like you support "disruptive" elements. The ones that force gameplay into the neutral states I'm talking about, and out of the non-neutral states. Brinstar is especially good at that, and using that as a ban criteria is silly.

Furthermore, what? You mean that forcing your opponent into a hazard is stupid, takes no skill, etc? Or how should I take this?




...Oh yeah, by the way, can someone please test Raziek's diagram? I'm getting totally different values. I think it might have the timing right, just not necessarily the levels... What would this mean for the stage? I don't think it makes that big of a difference, personally...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I suggest you calm down XD.

Difference in opinion does not require the comments to people who don't agree with you.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Where am I not calm? Is it the "*****ing and whining" part?

 

[xDD-Master]

Cadet, but I dont mean the bad players who complain. I mean top players, players that are on the same or nearly the same level as me.
As for the video, lets wait for G2 GF. There also is a Brinstar Match, which was even worse
And your Norfair Video TROLOLOLOL. You are saying that Brinstar is fine, and try to show how good it is, with linking a video, that show how sucky Norfair is? WTH.
And I get hit by Brinstar Acids too, of course, just like everyone does. No one is immune to this when actually fighting good oppenants.
Oh 10-20 might really be an overestimation - yes. But point stands. Its a lot more often than on fregate

Maybe I missunderstood that neutral / non-neutral part. Dunno.
What I meant, that we strive for stages that dont force you to give up spacing/zoning too often.
Why tolerate a bit, just the same we tolerate a bit randomness. But shouldnt take over, or being omnipresent, which actually is the case on brinstar.

:/

 

[Life]

Akuma, you missed the point of the Norfair video. Top players don't want to learn the stage for some reason. Raziek, I know you'll see this, back me up, you're good at hazards right?

 

[theunabletable]

...So you admit that FD is broken?

It's not broken at all, christ stop hyperboling you over the top fool.

Get better and stop *****ing about it. You're just wrong.

Rain came from god damn Japan to lose his lead in the last second of a match because of the random chance of acid rising during the time he starts nado.

Rain did the most precise and insane things I've ever seen with MK, not because he's a smart player (has hella habits and doesn't seem to actually read people very hard, and that's why people like Tyrant and Tearbear could beat him without too much trouble, and why in my MM against him, I lost, but not nearly as bad as vs... well Tyrant or Ally or Seibrik, like someone who just reads the **** out of your habits), but because of his game knowledge and knowing what's consistently useful and such. He did get better at the actual game. He lost to random chance.

Why should we play a game where we value learning the ins and outs of random stages, knowing exactly at what speed acid or lava rises, etc just so that we don't just ****ing SOMETIMES lose a match for not knowing obscure information like the back of your hand, instead of valuing the knowing the basics of the game, the things in the game that are constant no matter what stage is being played on? And, no, SV randomness is not in anyway comparable to Pictochat or Brinstar randomness, that's so shortsighted I want to hurt myself when I see someone saying it.

You weren't there at the actual set, watching Rain lose to random chance, after flying halfway across the world to play. It was the most depressing thing I've ever seen in this game. I can say that solely because of the ruleset, our metagame and Genesis 2 were measurably worse.

Brinstar is bull**** because it causes polar matchups (which I wouldn't say is an end-all reason to ban, but it's something that needs to be considered), has random chance of dying, or being saved, and requires inconsistent, obscure skills that aren't asked for in any other stage, to a large, time consuming extent, that only pays off to a practically random extent.

The skills asked for on Brinstar aren't asked for ANYWHERE else in the game, and they aren't even comparable skills. They're skills where you have to know every possibility that the stage can go through randomly, and have that so internalized that it doesn't require any focus to to be part of your decision making abilities.

The problem is that people 1) only have so much time to learn skills, and 2) that skill really only applies there.

If we were robots, this wouldn't be an issue, but as actual people, it gives us this choice when practicing the game:

A. Practice the basics of the game, which apply to every stage in the game
or
B. Practice Brinstar so much that you internally know what each acid rise means inherently, without wasting focus thinking about it, but be complete **** at the rest of the game

it comes down to learn the stage and suffer everywhere else in the game, or be really ****ing good at the game, and ****ing SOMETIMES just lose matches because of random chance.

It doesn't always lead the smartest player to win, sometimes that just causes the player who was lucky enough to decide essentially randomly what the best thing to practice would be.

It's inconsistent, and leads to depressingly inconsistent results.

Akuma, you missed the point of the Norfair video. Top players don't want to learn the stage for some reason. Raziek, I know you'll see this, back me up, you're good at hazards right?

You wanna know one thing that's atleast a large reason? It's a waste of time when it's not the best way to win.

HugS made a good blog about mindsets, but has a really spectacular quote on the subject: "While you're learning to count the seconds on Jungle Japes, I'm learning how to not suck ****"

Why would you learn a random obscure skill when it's not the path to being the best? When learning that won't help you as consistently as learning the basics?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Oh, here comes the "core skill" argument again...


btw, whats REALLY wrong with learning something and actually using that knowledge for your advantage?

 

[Life]

I want back the minute or so I took to skim that.

Brinstar is HIGHLY CONSISTENT. Maybe it felt random to the Japanese but they don't play on Brinstar. If you're depressed, stop idolizing Japan.

Watching the stage is present on virtually every stage. Just to name a few:

1. Delfino: Watch the background and you can get a good idea of where the stage is going to land next.
2. Halberd: DAT CLAW
3. SV: Very minor example. The platform starts in a random location. And you still have to know where it is the rest of the match, but it's 100% predictable after the first few seconds.
4/5. PS1/2: Look into the background and you'll know what transformation is about to take place.
6. Lylat: The tilting of the stage depends on which background is up.
7. Brinstar--but we're already talking about this. The acid comes up in the background before it rises to the stage, and is incredibly consistent overall.
8. CS: if you aren't sure how much time is left on the transformation, it starts shaking a few seconds before it switches. Also pretty minor, but still relevant.

The only stages you don't have to watch at least a little are the 100% nonrandom ones--FD, BF, RC, Temple.

Japan plays with FD/BF/SV as its starters. Two nonrandom stages and one infinitesimally random one. And they rarely CP anything else (PS1/Lylat/YI IIRC, but I might be wrong). Do you THINK Japan's going to be any good at stages?

And hey, if you don't want to take the hour, tops, to learn how a stage works and not get ***** on it, that's not my problem. If Japanese players don't take a little time to explore common American counterpicks before coming to American tournaments, that's also not our problem. That's like expecting First Amendment rights in North Korea, jeez. If you're getting ***** by the stage, then maybe learning the stage is a better path to victory than you give it credit for, eh?

 

[John12346]

I thought Brinstar was proven to move on a very consistent schedule that deviated by only a few seconds?

And also, I'm not sure how many people are aware of this, but right before the acid begins to rise, the whole screen shakes. Although, you still won't be able to tell how high the acid will rise. In either case, there's your "You can prepare for the acid" argument.