Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Red Arremer]

A new poll should be taken now that the Apex results are here. Seriously, lets end this thing.

I think we should wait for Genesis. After the people see that it won't look different to APEX... THEN we can make a new poll.

 

[Master Raven]

ban olimar plzzzzz

 

[Inui]

wow, annoying to fight is one of probans points?

Pro-ban's arguments have always been like this, lol.

After Apex, they should just give up.

 

[adumbrodeus]

That chart is stuffed with outdated information.

And I was talking about High to Mid Tier - y'know, characters that are viable or partly viable for tournament play. Meta Knight only has 3 characters he really gives trouble in this line, which are Marth, R.O.B., and Peach, and the latter two have other hard counters, anyway, so the only actually viable character Meta Knight is hard countering is Marth.

The thing is, a lot of those low tier characters are low-tier because of MK. Without MK, many of them could do much better.

MK's Dair does not auto-spike.

Also Spade I can't sugoarcoat it, that was a pathetic counter argument.

You know that even if Nair is MK's worst aerial, it's still stupid fast and deals very nice damage?! (somewhere between 2-5 frames and for damage... well I can't recall, but yeah). Makes for a nice OoS aerial, indeed.

Also I said "like", meaning you're free to look into things like their Uairs, and not just direct comparisons either.

Direct comparison - Uairs - MK's is clearly better, only thing Marth has over it is killing power when tippered.

Indirect comparison, how about the usefulness of their F/Bairs? Marth's is just a one (hit)-trick pony, whereas MK has 3 hits to back up his (he's also lagless on both, but MK's Bair covers less, but Marth's has more lag).

Edit: Nic, if I am pulling otu straws then tell me this:

What Does Marth have when his shield is getting pressured that isn't Dolphin Slash? Nothing is as fast or as hardhitting as that (don't suggest Jab lol).

...

Wow, you don't know Marth do you?

Marth's fair is a heck of a lot better then MK's, it's safer, has better range, and much more difficult to DI, plus deals more damage generally. (Multi-hit means easier to DI btw)

Also, his nair is amazing, safe on block, and also a kill move, as well as having fair's range.

Uair serves a fundamentally different purpose for Marth then MK. While MK's is probably better overall, Marth's is meant to juggle, and it does that perfectly, MK's combos into itself instead.

Bair is an edgeguard move, and is quite good at it.


Mk a better OOS game? ROLF, LOL, hahahahahahahahahahaha! No.


Marth has frame 4 dancing blade, and is a natural combo, which is an amazing damage racker and can also shield stab, so you're not even safe if you manage to get up shield. He also has dolphin slash which we already talked about, which is invincable until the hitbox comes out, on frame 5. That's ALL he needs. Period. You should also never fail to hit with a dolphin slash btw, counter moves aren't supposed to be safe, they're supposed to be for when your opponent has no chance to block. MK's dsmash is plenty punishable on block anyway.

Marth's OOS game is the best in the game, MK has nothing on him in that regard, it's MK's OFFENSIVE game which sets him apart, because Marth's got defense locked.

To put it as the Marth mains do:
"Meta Knight can do everything Marth can, just better."

As far as in the overall metagame, yes, but that's not strictly true. Strictly Marth has a better defensive game then MK, especially OOS.

The thing is, MK's overall offensive game, and survival abilities more then make up for this, so end result is he's basically a better Marth.

This notion is wrong, MK can't SH double FAir and then follow up with a blade dance. He can SH FAir to tilt on ground, but it's not the same. Doesn't shield pressure as hard or cover as much distance.

Also Marth has tipper FSmash. MK is deadlier if the opponent is closer, but at that range Marth is better at KO'ing.

F-smash isn't a very good move overall and is very unsafe.

Marth doesn't generally SHDF because it tends to be unsafe, he's got a great defensive game, that's what he generally uses, using various pokes to force an attack.

Pro-ban's arguments have always been like this, lol.

After Apex, they should just give up.

One tournament is statistically superfluous.

That said, pro-ban needs to start backing up the claims of MK's dominance with actual evidence.


BTW, Love your sig, that game was awesome.

 

[Red Arremer]

BTW, Love your sig, that game was awesome.

OMG, I officially love you now.

 

[Nic64]

The thing is, a lot of those low tier characters are low-tier because of MK. Without MK, many of them could do much better.

who does MK keep in low tier exactly?

 

[Curaga]

I really don't see MKs tornado spam.. o_o

But Fox can Nair it, Bair it, Dair it from above. Though its better to just get distance and shoot MK a ton.
Sonic can Fsmash it.

Uh yeah.

As for whatever someone said about Marth and Sonic: Its a harder match up because Marth has a lot of answers to an offensive Sonic. Going against Marth is stupidly fun though.

 

[Vorguen]

The gap is continually closing between Meta Knight and other caracters. It really isn't getting any worse.

 

[Inui]

The gap is continually closing between Meta Knight and other caracters. It really isn't getting any worse.

That's what I've been noticing for a while now, especially in Atlantic North.

 

[SOVAman]

There needs to be more cool anti mk sigs

btw ban olimar

 

[Marcbri]

The thing is, a lot of those low tier characters are low-tier because of MK. Without MK, many of them could do much better.

lololol. in fact Jiggs and Yoshi have decent match-ups against MK. mind tell me which characters does MK make low tier?


btw ban low tiers, I don't want to learn the match-up for those crappy characters. seriously, proban side, get real arguments.

 

[.Marik]

Allright, I have come up with a theory as to why banning MetaKnight may be a bad idea. If he is banned, I don't really care. I don't play MetaKnight. Just hear me out.

Think of it this way. Banning MetaKnight is like removing a important factor out of a environmental food chain, one that is vital for that particular ecosystem to survive.

If you ban MetaKnight, you basically remove the top predator. The other predators, in this case, top/high tiers, will overswarm the entire "ecosystem." This will lead to Tournament results just as disadvantaged, because the few characters that do fare well against them, (MetaKnight being one) won't be able to remove them.

I main Yoshi, and we have a managable time against MetaKnights, due to the Chaingrabs that help us out here. If MetaKnights aren't there to remove characters like Marth, Dedede, Falco, Snake, it might even be HARDER for us to place well. We have been working so hard to find tactics against MetaKnight, and then what? Other characters will just take the top, toppling the "food chain", per se.

You can't just remove him from the metagame like that. And besides, what about MetaKnight mains? You honestly just expect them to take this lightly? Yes, MetaKnight is broken, but Brawl wasn't even supposed to be played competitively, which explains the huge gap. In Melee, which is a naturally competitive game, Fox was the best. But did they always win, like MetaKnight players do?

No, they had to work advanced skills and techs in order to place well. Yes it's easier, but due to the way the game was developed, it's not that difficult to accomplish, the better player usually won. Mango proved this, by using Jigglypuff and ****** with her.

Now, Ally won APEX. This goes to show that even in Brawl, MetaKnight CAN be defeated. Yes, it's exponentally harder, but still possible nonetheless.

 

[Inui]

There are literally no characters that are not viable due to MK's existance. I don't think MK is the worst match-up for any low tier.

 

[SuSa]

thats horrible logic. horrible, terrible, logic. first of all, captain falcon would never be overplayed unless he was broken like mk. Noone would care if cf was overplayed because he's such a bad character anyways.

but MK is broken, horribly over played, and annoying to fight. Truefax.

EDIT: He's not fun to fight simply because he's used so much. I'd like to play brawl plz, not "lets fight mk all day"

I lost a lot of respect for you on this page alone.

MK is not broken, he is simply the best. There is[/i a difference.

Second of all - if we ban MK; then Snake or Marth (or who knows, maybe another character... Marth's only bad matchup is MK and then there are tier whores who would flock to Snake) then should we ban them too? That is what he is saying.

While I agree with Meta Knight being annoying to fight; I'd much less rather fight an Olimar. All he has to do is grab. Killing you ask? Don't worry, his grab kills to. That's an annoying fight. (At least for Snake; and for me)


If you learn to **** MK and get a reputation for it - people may be less apt to go MK against you. Try that path instead.

 

[daisho]

I think my opinion changes on this topic every day.

I play DK who imo has an even matchup with MK but thats not my point.

Meta knight isn't just a character who people play as and is better than other characters... In this game people who would have been good with other characters decided to switch their mains since they knew they could never beat an MK with their character.

In addition, instead of having to learn multiple CPs for your bad matchups, you can just pick up MK to cover all your bad matchups. Then once you start playing as him, unless your attached to your main, you will realize that it is so much easier to win as MK so you will stick with him.

That being said, brawl's metagame is still in the early stages and I believe that MK is becoming more beatable (lain and ally both beat m2k without using MK). I doubt he will go down from spot number 1, or if he does, 2 for a while, but even so, there has to be a best character.

 

[Inui]

daisho, that doesn't even matter.

Name any fighting game, and there's going to be a character with 0 bad match-ups.

That doesn't make a character bannable.

 

[Curaga]

Name any fighting game, and there's going to be a character with 0 bad match-ups.
.

Tekken. No bad match-ups.

Sorry! Had to. :3

 

[Master Raven]

The slippery slope wouldn't apply to Marth since he's countered by DDD too (I dunno about Snake, I'm pretty sure Snake has at least a slight advantage) and debatably goes even with DK , not to mention his weaknesses are easily exploitable. Snake also goes at least even with a few characters, so as long as those characters can maintain at least even matchups on him, then he's fine, and just like Marth has some weaknesses that are easy to exploit (his recovery and some of the lag in his moves, and his bad aerial maintenance).

 

[RDK]

daisho, that doesn't even matter.

Name any fighting game, and there's going to be a character with 0 bad match-ups.

That doesn't make a character bannable.

Tekken. No bad match-ups.

Sorry! Had to. :3

Also, while not perfect, GG is balanced to the point where most advantages / disadvantages in matchups are negligible.

But even that's beside the point. Pro-ban needs to understand why we have the criteria we have. Unless it literally comes to the point where you lose unless you play as Meta, stop whining and go with the flow. It happens in every competitive fighter.

 

[Flayl]

What's the Smash Lab doing? Have they found optimal solutions to ledge camping yet? Why didn't they discover pivot chain grabbing before BengalsRZ? Why is Distant Planet banned yet Pirate Ship is counterpick? Why isn't this thread locked yet?

 

[adumbrodeus]

who does MK keep in low tier exactly?

lololol. in fact Jiggs and Yoshi have decent match-ups against MK. mind tell me which characters does MK make low tier?

Ok, firstly, understand that I'm going off results as opposed to theory because there's some interesting effects here.

Realistically, it's because of MK's prevelence and often the high level of play required to pull the 60-40 against him, which results in him being a great character to pull out as a secondary (as opposed to Marth, who needs a very fine sense of spacing to even be viable at all). Thus, even characters who are 60-40 against him get heavily supressed in tournament results.


Furthermore, I think that a lot of people are over-estimating Marth's match-ups these days, sure he has very few truly bad match-up, but his good match-ups are almost entirely 60-40s with very few exceptions.

btw ban low tiers, I don't want to learn the match-up for those crappy characters. seriously, proban side, get real arguments.

Sorry for biting Shadowlink, but this has to be done...


I'm anti-ban you stupid twit!



Seriously, just because I'm anti-ban doesn't mean I agree with everything everyone who's anti-ban has said, I explained my reasoning at length, and as of yet, and nobody has provided enough evidence to satisfy, so the null hypothesis holds, it has not been proven otherwise.

OMG, I officially love you now.

Lol, sweet.

btw, your avie's great.

 

[Marcbri]

that second sentence wasn't for you, it was for Nappy, who said:

but MK is broken, horribly over played, and annoying to fight. Truefax.

wathever.

 

[adumbrodeus]

that second sentence wasn't for you, it was for Nappy, who said:

Ok, fair enough, just make sure it's obvious who you're quoting in the future, best to use multiquotes in that case.


Just so you know, that wasn't really a commentary on you, it was affectionately quoting something that was said earlier in the thread for the lolz.

Too bad Shadowlink didn't actually see it it seems.

 

[Mr.-0]

I still think I'm the "god of brawl" as you say, he just played better this time so he won. That doesn't suddenly make him better cuz he won once. I think the matchup is even now though cuz of Candy ****** Dojo and Ally beating me. My record vs him is still HIGHLY in my favor though, and slightly better vs other people (Cuz of consistent 1st in teams w/ random teammates and not losing to azen's ddd).

Thats' your opinion, and your entitled to it, but I have mine: you and ally played your hardest and ally won. While you have an overall better record than him, ally beat you in the most recent match. And it clearly wasn't a fluke. Unless you beat him again, becasue he won recently, I say that chances are he'll probably beat you again. so yeah, that's why I think that your not the god of brawl;. Ally is now.

 

[Palpi]

Your logic is absolutely horrifying.

 

[Mr.-0]

I dare say to ask how, but, at the moment, i'll just say thank you.

 

[Palpi]

I wasn't complimenting you, at all. My friend who I repeatably beat, defeated me once and that was the last match we played. Does that make him better than me?

please say yes!

 

[Yuna]

The slippery slope wouldn't apply to Marth since he's countered by DDD too (I dunno about Snake, I'm pretty sure Snake has at least a slight advantage) and debatably goes even with DK , not to mention his weaknesses are easily exploitable. Snake also goes at least even with a few characters, so as long as those characters can maintain at least even matchups on him, then he's fine, and just like Marth has some weaknesses that are easy to exploit (his recovery and some of the lag in his moves, and his bad aerial maintenance).

A 60-40 is not a counter!

 

[Palpi]

On topic of marth. The bad match ups require the marth player to almost play perfect to win so in theory is looks better than it actually is.

 

[Yuna]

On topic of marth. The bad match ups require the marth player to almost play perfect to win so in theory is looks better than it actually is.

1) No they don't.
2) They are barely worse than MK's worst match-ups.

 

[Thinkaman]

Whoever said low-tiers would do better without MK could not be more wrong.

Falcon and Ganondorf do far worse against DDD, Marth, and G&W, to say nothing of the ICs and Diddy.

Yoshi does better agaisnt MK than any other high tier character.

Jigglypuff does very well against MK, far better than her other high-tier matchups outside of Falco and Diddy.

Ness and Lucas also do worse against Marth and G&W than MK.

Ivysaur is probably hates MK more than the other high tiers, but Squirtle hates Marth and G&W more, and Charizard gets shut down by Falco in my experience.

Mario is one of MK's best matchups, and yet he hates DDD even more!

Link? Link also hates DDD and Falco far more than he hates MK.

The fact is, MK is not at all a low-tier surpressing force--DDD, G&W, and Marth are the worst in that regard. Banning MK is only going to help the existing top characters, ROB, and maybe Pit or Wolf.

 

[MasterDaveNo1]

only three characters get more viable without MK in the game

peach, rob, marth

they're not horrible to the point of being unusable even with MK there

also, i agree with everything inui said. i lose to plenty of his chars with my MK because he's good at the match-up and reads me well.

 

[Cold Fusion]

A 60-40 is not a counter!

I thought it was considered a Soft-Counter.

 

[Mr.-0]

I wasn't complimenting you, at all. My friend who I repeatably beat, defeated me once and that was the last match we played. Does that make him better than me?

please say yes!

But ally beat him 3-1. And M2K didn't repeadately beta him. He beat him more than once, but it's not like their best friends and play each other every day. Oh, and I know it wasn't a compliment: Somebody put a sticker in my locker that said take every insult as a compliment. And I do. What's wrong with that?

 

[Maniclysane]

I thought it was considered a Soft-Counter.

Well, it's soft. It's a matchup that's less than desirable, but shouldn't get in your way.

 

[MasterDaveNo1]

Thats' your opinion, and your entitled to it, but I have mine: you and ally played your hardest and ally won. While you have an overall better record than him, ally beat you in the most recent match. And it clearly wasn't a fluke. Unless you beat him again, becasue he won recently, I say that chances are he'll probably beat you again. so yeah, that's why I think that your not the god of brawl;. Ally is now.

woooow @ how stupid and ignorant you are

m2k is obviously the best player

 

[RDK]

I thought it was considered a Soft-Counter.

He meant hard counter. Usually when somebody just says "counter" it's shorthand for "hard counter".

 

[ShadowLink84]

As for whatever someone said about Marth and Sonic: Its a harder match up because Marth has a lot of answers to an offensive Sonic. Going against Marth is stupidly fun though.

Sod oes MK what is your point?
Noe actually explain as to why it is more difficult?

 

[adumbrodeus]

On topic of marth. The bad match ups require the marth player to almost play perfect to win so in theory is looks better than it actually is.

No, what they REQUIRE is a ton of knowledge and an intrinsic ability to space very well, something most people lack.

Whoever said low-tiers would do better without MK could not be more wrong.

Falcon and Ganondorf do far worse against DDD, Marth, and G&W, to say nothing of the ICs and Diddy.

DDD is fair enough, Marth definately not however. The exact attributes that Marth has that absolutely shut down Ganondorf and Falcon, MK has them. The completely safe pokes to provide shield pressure, the ability to throw out hitboxes to reliably shut down their approaches, it's still there.

The difference is, MK's defensive game isn't as strong, so it isn't as much, touch shield = dolphin slash/dancing blade to the face. However, his offensive game more then makes up for it, he can totally overwhelm them by applying a little shield pressure then doing a cross-up.

That, and he's FAR better at gimping them then Marth is once they get off-stage, Marth is good but MK is pretty much guarenteed.

Ness and Lucas also do worse against Marth and G&W than MK.

I think you're underestimating MK here, moreso against Ness then Lucas though, because against a compitent MK, Ness shouldn't recover, ever.

 

[|RK|]

Sorry O, but you're wrong. Mewtwo is still the king.
(c wut i did thar?)