Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Kitamerby]

pokemon stadium 3>>>>>pokemon stadium>>>>pokemon stadium 2

Pokemon Stadium 3 doesn't exist, which is a crying shame, seriously.

 

[Nic64]

I think top 8 are

MK
Snake
Marth
Diddy Kong
ROB
Olimar
GAW
Ice Climbers

ROB really doesn't belong on this list...

I'd agree that Marth has an amazing tool set and could be top 3 with MK out of the game, but I think with MK Marth finds himself out of the top 5. Bad matchup against both of the best characters does him no favors.

DDD is the most overrated character in Brawl. LOL just pick Falco, Kirby, Meta Knight, Toon Link or any character he cant chain grab and you win.

DDD does have his share of bad matchups and is probably overrated, but it's not as simple as "lol pick a character he can't chain grab and he's worthless", in fact, that's an incredibly stupid thing to say. his grab is still amazing and so is his throw game, even without the chain grab, and he has a lot of other positive things in his favor too.

I feel Falco and DDD are completely overhyped and used. I also think that Fox, Wolf, and Pit have an enormous amount of potential but are not used enough.

falco and DDD are great aside from their bad matchups, falco is probably on a pretty steep decline now that pikachu destroys him...

fox and wolf will never go anywhere because of their hard counters I think, they both have like 2-4 characters that can just do retardedly gay things to them. pit is decent but he's also countered badly by a lot of high tiers.

If you're behind me, I have the same answers when you attack, Marth really doesn't have problems with cross-ups unless they're safe on block.

you don't have to attack to get behind someone

this topic is an almost completely irrelevant discussion at this point...

 

[P. O. F.]

ROB really doesn't belong on this list...

I'd agree that Marth has an amazing tool set and could be top 3 with MK out of the game, but I think with MK Marth finds himself out of the top 5. Bad matchup against both of the best characters does him no favors.



DDD does have his share of bad matchups and is probably overrated, but it's not as simple as "lol pick a character he can't chain grab and he's worthless", in fact, that's an incredibly stupid thing to say. his grab is still amazing and so is his throw game, even without the chain grab, and he has a lot of other positive things in his favor too.



falco and DDD are great aside from their bad matchups, falco is probably on a pretty steep decline now that pikachu destroys him...

fox and wolf will never go anywhere because of their hard counters I think, they both have like 2-4 characters that can just do retardedly gay things to them. pit is decent but he's also countered badly by a lot of high tiers.



you don't have to attack to get behind someone

this topic is an almost completely irrelevant discussion at this point...

I always thought that Falco was a crummy character and was not top 8. Personally, I find Peach for god sakes to be a tougher match up than him. LOL. Any time anyone picks Falco against me, I smile. He has TWO good aerials and the rest are....meh, you'd have to be an idiot to get daired by him because if you DI away properly Falco can't follow up from his CG, ("Oh no! I don't want to get hit by his WORST smash attack from his chain throw. Not the u smash!" ) The best things he has going for him are his lasers, tilts, and bair. That's about it.

I find that against Falco Marth, Snake, MK, GAW, R.O.B, Diddy, Pikachu, maybe Kirby, Sheik, all **** him. I still don't think Falco has the advantage over Snake.....at all. If anything, 50-50.

And Marth si DEFINITELY top 5....without question.

He does well against Meta Knight more so than a majority of the cast due to his great aerial game and his options against tornado. His defensive aerial game makes it difficult for meta knight to approach him on the ground. Once he's off...thats a different story. It's just like using Snake IMO. The only characters Marth truly struggles against are DDD, Snake, and MK, and he goes even with DK, Wolf, and IMO Olimar. He has an advantage against every other character in the game. A good marth should not be losing to anyone else.

 

[rehab]

I have never lost to a good DDD in my entire life in tournament.

I don't generally bring up join date at all, but I don't see many people in their first month of joining swf making that kind of statement. Tournament results?

 

[Nic64]

A good marth should not be losing to anyone else.

because matchups entirely determine outcomes sghasdfgsdfgjhj

 

[SyOn]

@rehab

I'm guessing P.O.F is Prince Of Fire. He's been on this site longer than you if I'm right.

 

[rehab]

While Prince of Fire has that same avatar and signature, he has a smash director title and an Oct 2007 join date, and is not banned in any visible form, and as far as I knew was not into Brawl. Who is this?

 

[SyOn]

Oh, I should've looked first. Then I have no idea.

 

[ZesuBen]

Back to discussion.

Ban? I think not. :D

 

[Conti]

Lol, The more and more i look at this thread... the more and more i see how ignorant people are...

I LOL every time i see a good/well-known player say he is anti-ban...

Then majority (not saying all) of the Ban'rs are just random people who just want him ban'd because he is "Not Fun to Fight" or "Impossible because of being broken"... (im a random person too, but idk you need to look at both sides of the fence BAN'rs)

I love crybabys.... Learn the game, Play the game, Play to win the game...

If you want MK Ban'd because you cant beat MK's then you obviously need to look at this matchup again, and figure out what you're doing wrong, cuz its not the MK... it's You

ANTI-BAN FTW

 

[adumbrodeus]

@rehab

I'm guessing P.O.F is Prince Of Fire. He's been on this site longer than you if I'm right.

*facepalm*

Appeal to authority fallacy for the lose.

 

[rehab]

It's fine, I'm the one who brought up join dates and he didn't exactly come out with "therefore he's better than you so get your **** outta here"

 

[Masmasher@]

Lol, The more and more i look at this thread... the more and more i see how ignorant people are...

I LOL every time i see a good/well-known player say he is anti-ban...

Then majority (not saying all) of the Ban'rs are just random people who just want him ban'd because he is "Not Fun to Fight" or "Impossible because of being broken"... (im a random person too, but idk you need to look at both sides of the fence BAN'rs)

I love crybabys.... Learn the game, Play the game, Play to win the game...

If you want MK Ban'd because you cant beat MK's then you obviously need to look at this matchup again, and figure out what you're doing wrong, cuz its not the MK... it's You

ANTI-BAN FTW

way to generalize the other side. you talk about looking at the ban from both sides then call the pro ban side cry babies. Also just cause people want metaknight banned doesnt mean the cant beat him. How do you know thats the majority?

 

[rehab]

If you can beat him, why would you want him banned?

People can talk up this overcentralization crap all day but if he's beatable, and everybody knows it, but none of the lesser players are willing to work for it, being real, we are being melodramatic babies with unnecessarily high-end diction about this.

 

[Masmasher@]

If you can beat him, why would you want him banned?

People can talk up this overcentralization crap all day but if he's beatable, and everybody knows it, but none of the lesser players are willing to work for it, being real, we are being melodramatic babies with unnecessarily high-end diction about this.

Well are you really beating the character or are you beating the flawed person. I personally think its a combination of the two. Though by his stats, matchups and tournament placings this is debatable. Plus if he is overcentralizing hes huting the metagame.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If you can beat him, why would you want him banned?

People can talk up this overcentralization crap all day but if he's beatable, and everybody knows it, but none of the lesser players are willing to work for it, being real, we are being melodramatic babies with unnecessarily high-end diction about this.

...

It's things like this that make me wish I got involved with competitive streetfighter instead.


Seriously, overcentralization has been the standard for fighting game bans for quite some time, and has proven to be a successful standard.

The only reason you think it's crap is because people are attempting to abuse it in smash, at least theoretically speaking, cause we aren't actually sure whether or not he is bannable under that standard, but probably not.

Really, this entire thing is our community being immature.

 

[rehab]

What the hell does it mean to be "hurting the metagame"

If a good character makes it hard for lesser characters, that is not hurting anything, that is par for the course as far as the metagame goes. So a lot of characers are hard to win with. The only thing to do is man up about it and take your lumps if you want to play those characters. There's nothing inherently wrong with moving your character choice up a tier if that's what you on your own prerogative think you have to do and there never will be.

In a tournament situation where the pressure's up and all that, the point is to force the other person to make mistakes, or to be multiple mental steps ahead of him ingame. Even in this game where an individual mistake doesn't mean as much as in some other games, it's possible to force them if you really know your **** on both a character and player level. Top tier players are not completely immune to this. Us peons spewing complaints like "but there's so many of them and I don't like it" are missing the point.

It's things like this that make me wish I got involved with competitive streetfighter instead.

Do it maggot, it's never too late

 

[RDK]

...

It's things like this that make me wish I got involved with competitive streetfighter instead.


Seriously, overcentralization has been the standard for fighting game bans for quite some time, and has proven to be a successful standard.

The only reason you think it's crap is because people are attempting to abuse it in smash, at least theoretically speaking, cause we aren't actually sure whether or not he is bannable under that standard, but probably not.

Really, this entire thing is our community being immature.

What the hell does it mean to be "hurting the metagame"

If a good character makes it hard for lesser characters, that is not hurting anything, that is par for the course as far as the metagame goes. So a lot of characers are hard to win with. The only thing to do is man up about it and take your lumps if you want to play those characters. There's nothing inherently wrong with moving your character choice up a tier if that's what you on your own prerogative think you have to do and there never will be.

In a tournament situation where the pressure's up and all that, the point is to force the other person to make mistakes, or to be multiple mental steps ahead of him ingame. Even in this game where an individual mistake doesn't mean as much as in some other games, it's possible to force them if you really know your **** on both a character and player level. Top tier players are not completely immune to this. Us peons spewing complaints like "but there's so many of them and I don't like it" are missing the point.


Do it maggot, it's never too late

The hell? You guys are both anti-ban. You're arguing two aspects of the same thing; no need for name-calling, Rehab.

Yes, overcentralization is valid ban criteria. It doesn't matter whether a charactetr is simply "beatable"; it's should be assumed that the situation involves two players playing at the top of the metagame.

 

[Red Arremer]

I want to throw out that dominance and "being played too often" would only be valid at about at least 60% of the tournament placings would be taken by Meta Knight, in my opinion. By the current state, it isn't even 30% of tournament placings that Meta Knight takes.

"Overcentralizing" is something else. Yes, you'll face many Meta Knights, but you will face every Top Tier character more than High Tiers and below.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I want to throw out that dominance and "being played too often" would only be valid at about at least 60% of the tournament placings would be taken by Meta Knight, in my opinion. By the current state, it isn't even 30% of tournament placings that Meta Knight takes.

"Overcentralizing" is something else. Yes, you'll face many Meta Knights, but you will face every Top Tier character more than High Tiers and below.

Being played too often is NEVER a valid criteria.
Remeember the Link storm in melee?

The dominance goes hand in hand with overcentralization sinc ethe dominance would be an indication (though not necessarily proof) of that overcentralization.
Even then the over centralizatinon has to be due to the nature of the character, and not factors such as popularity.

 

[rehab]

1. That was much more a response to MA than Adum, I barely knew we were in opposition to each other

2. Phrases in the vein of that last one are pretty much used exclusively in a facetious way, it was meant to be encouragement to play other fighters

3. Overcentralization, as people are using it, is something like being extremely extensively used to place well. We have seen that top tier players can go back and forth with each other in tournament many times, therefore we know MK is beatable, therefore there is a gap between the overcentralization crap repeated ad nauseum and the real world. Possibly, that gap is people being big godda** babies.

 

[ShadowLink84]

3. Overcentralization, as people are using it, is something like being extremely extensively used to place well. We have seen that top tier players can go back and forth with each other in tournament many times, therefore we know MK is beatable, therefore there is a gap between the overcentralization crap repeated ad nauseum and the real world. Possibly, that gap is people being big godda** babies.

no no no no NO!
Why are you acting as if we should address the arguments of the ignorant amsses?
let alone that the over centralization aspect was brought up by anti-ban and has since been used to explain that MK is not ban worthy.
The game does not center upon MK to such a degree as to require his ban.
That is the definition that is to be addressed, not bull**** like popularity.

 

[Masmasher@]

What the hell does it mean to be "hurting the metagame"

If a good character makes it hard for lesser characters, that is not hurting anything, that is par for the course as far as the metagame goes. So a lot of characers are hard to win with. The only thing to do is man up about it and take your lumps if you want to play those characters. There's nothing inherently wrong with moving your character choice up a tier if that's what you on your own prerogative think you have to do and there never will be.

In a tournament situation where the pressure's up and all that, the point is to force the other person to make mistakes, or to be multiple mental steps ahead of him ingame. Even in this game where an individual mistake doesn't mean as much as in some other games, it's possible to force them if you really know your **** on both a character and player level. Top tier players are not completely immune to this. Us peons spewing complaints like "but there's so many of them and I don't like it" are missing the point.


Do it maggot, it's never too late

Really some characters should have a rough time in fighitng games but its shouldnt be alot of them as you put it. I dont think people for the ban are arguing for metaknights ban so theire charactercan move up the tier list. Really its aready been said that the only character that could benifit from this is marth.

That second paragraph really wasnt needed thats just a long way of saying try harder/be eons better then your opponent. Really though meta knight has multiple options against the rest of the cast. in this defensive type game he can be more proactive then any one else on the roster. The only psuedo answer to meta knight is to out think your opponent.

Also you said missing the point... what point are is the proban side missing?



I never said ban him cause hes popular dont put words in my mouth.

 

[rehab]

My big, star-encrusted neon flashing signs point:

Among god tier players, top tier players, high tier players, meta knight is beatable. Anybody who says there's anything more to be said is being an armchair quarterback for the sake of it.

The ONLY way to beat people, anybody, in tournament is to outthink them. What the hell is this? Do you want a free win because you moved your cursor to ___ character and took MK to _____ stage? That's a very stupid mentality.

 

[ShadowLink84]

My big, star-encrusted neon flashing signs point:

Among god tier players, top tier players, high tier players, meta knight is beatable. Anybody who says there's anything more to be said is being an armchair quarterback for the sake of it.

The ONLY way to beat people, anybody, in tournament is to outthink them. What the hell is this? Do you want a free win because you moved your cursor to ___ character and took MK to _____ stage? That's a very stupid mentality.

The day someone decides to do a falcon ditto with me instead of switching to MK against me in a tournament setting, is the day your statement will ring true.

 

[Kamikaze*]

The day someone decides to do a falcon ditto with me instead of switching to MK against me in a tournament setting, is the day your statement will ring true.

Well, he's right. If ally can do it anyone can.

 

[Pez55]

My big, star-encrusted neon flashing signs point:

Among god tier players, top tier players, high tier players, meta knight is beatable.

Meta Knight is always beatable. It doesn't matter what tier player the person is. He just requires less strategy and set up than other characters.

 

[Thinkaman]

The day someone decides to do a falcon ditto with me instead of switching to MK against me in a tournament setting, is the day your statement will ring true.

I actually always offer people this, even though I never play or switch to MK anyway.

It's only been accepted twice.

 

[Black_Heretic]

The day someone decides to do a falcon ditto with me instead of switching to MK against me in a tournament setting, is the day your statement will ring true.

Let's Falcon ditto at Genesis

I offer Falcon dittos to everybody in every tournament set I ever play in

 

[Brinzy]

More like, if I am anybody else, you need to be Falcon.

 

[.Marik]

Falcon and Samus dittos are WAY too fun.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well, he's right. If ally can do it anyone can.

When was the last time Ally went all captain falcon?
IN a tournament?
A reputable tournament?

Yeah I thought so.

Don't twist my words.

It is VERY rare to see a Falcon mainer in a tournament. Simply because many people know how bad he is, Ally did not whip out Falcon during his Apex matches.

My statement still stands, I would love it, if every time i faced someone, and they were serious about winning, for them to challenge me to a falcon ditto for the set.

I highly doubt anyone is going to risk their chances at money like that.

 

[Pez55]

Most people just figure "Ha there using another character other then Meta Knight, there's no way they can beat me now!"

 

[rehab]

The day someone decides to do a falcon ditto with me instead of switching to MK against me in a tournament setting, is the day your statement will ring true.

You going to go beyond snark with that train of thought?

Meta Knight is always beatable. It doesn't matter what tier player the person is. He just requires less strategy and set up than other characters.

par for the course. nothing wrong with that.

 

[Masmasher@]

My big, star-encrusted neon flashing signs point:

Among god tier players, top tier players, high tier players, meta knight is beatable. Anybody who says there's anything more to be said is being an armchair quarterback for the sake of it.

The ONLY way to beat people, anybody, in tournament is to outthink them. What the hell is this? Do you want a free win because you moved your cursor to ___ character and took MK to _____ stage? That's a very stupid mentality.

No......no......no

Thats a horrible interpretation of what i was thinking and even if that wasnt directed at me thats not what anyone was thinking or saying. What I am simply saying is that metaknight clearly has a much larger option select then the rest of the cast. that combined with his transendent prioirty makes him very difficult to face. Notice there are no real answers to his moves just the classic wait and properly/hopefully punish. Hes a good character but hes not supposed to be a boss. In other fighting games even the best character has answers to all their moves in different varibles other than wait and punish. Its not really flawed game design because this game was designed to be casual but what can you call it......

Its a sad thing where in a fighting game you try to find infinites to go on par with a character. I.e yoshi, bowser, IC

 

[Deathcarter]

You guys are underestimating MK to a ridiculous extent. Answer this: If the rest of the top tier deals with the rest of the cast in general better than MK, and MK is debatably not excellent enough to be above top tier (if he were then wouldn't his performance as a whole against the rest of the top 8 be noticably better than Falco's?), why does he have more than double the results than every other top tier character?

You really cannot argue popularity as a reason. The people who jumped on the bandwagon after they saw he was top of the tier list would not heavily contribute to MK's points. All of us know that MK does not hold the majority of top players; I honestly don't think he holds more than double the players those of DDD, Snake, G&W, or Diddy Kong (not sure about the others).

For what explainable reason would MK, other than being noted as being the best character, have double the points of the other 5-7 characters who are not only almost as viable against him and each other as he is but much better against the high/mid/low tier characters in general than MK is? Maybe everyone flocked to MK for reasons that make him that much better than the other top tiers (note that the anti-ban side says the top tier characters have comparable levels of viability with him and each other) and that representation is where all of his results come from. Or maybe the top 8 characters (except for Wario) have very comparable representation in tournaments and the MKs simply excel in tournaments that much more than the other top tier players.

Do note that I am only talking about the most recent tournament listings, but shouldn't the top tiers be catching up with each other if the gap between them is decreasing? Maybe the anti-ban side underestimates MK more than the pro-ban side overestimates him. I hope someone can explain this for me.

 

[Melomaniacal]

- Popular character
- Best character in the game
- Extremely good representation by highly skilled players

Of course his tournament rankings are going to be the best. Yes, they are a bit ridiculously high, but then again, he is seriously that popular. Maybe I'm biased because my region is a bit gay for MK, but still, he is extremely popular. We all know that a lot of people pick up MK at least as a secondary to deal with some matchups, and a lot of that goes into the tournament placings, too.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You going to go beyond snark with that train of thought?

So you are saying that in a tournament with money on the line, that someone will go, sure, I will take you up on that falcon ditto.
I will not use a better character against your falcon.

 

[Brinzy]

You guys are underestimating MK to a ridiculous extent. Answer this: If the rest of the top tier deals with the rest of the cast in general better than MK, and MK is debatably not excellent enough to be above top tier (if he were then wouldn't his performance as a whole against the rest of the top 8 be noticably better than Falco's?), why does he have more than double the results than every other top tier character?

Because he's played the most? Because he's the best? Because of A, B, and C about his attacks? Because some of the top tournament winners main him and more secondary him? Some of this stuff is a cause for other stuff listed here, but there are so many factors as to why he has far more results than the others. Sure, Snake has good attacks as well, but he's not played the most as far as I know. Sure, you have some top DDD and Falco players out there, but maybe they have some more exploitable weaknesses than MK does.

You can't really point at everything and try to attribute them to a certain degree, because a lot of the reasons for this have already been outlined and are documented for you to see, such as who won those tournaments and how many MKs were used and why he's the best and so on and so forth.

You really cannot argue popularity as a reason. The people who jumped on the bandwagon after they saw he was top of the tier list would not heavily contribute to MK's points. All of us know that MK does not hold the majority of top players; I honestly don't think he holds more than double the players those of DDD, Snake, G&W, or Diddy Kong (not sure about the others).

Ok, let us assume that this is true, though I believe a lot of those bandwagoners do indeed contribute to MK's success, and they do so for [MK's points - non-bandwagoners (which are M2K, Dojo AFAIK, and some others)].

The ones who heavily contribute = the most common top placers/winners of tournaments = top players

This means that, MK, without the influence of the bandwagoners, is still going to have a significant amount of points, and because he is a popular character, which is not up for debate, he is going to have the top of the line for points. Now, why he is popular has, again, many explanations, but that's not really important right now.

He may or may not have a significant number of top players as compared to everyone else, but the point here is that, as the facts show, MK is doing the best. Popularity is a large reason for this, because those top players are not the only ones who are getting him points - he's also getting a significant number of points from "bandwagoners" and other good players who secondary him for various reasons. Yes, being popular does account for part of the reason why he has so many points.

For what explainable reason would MK, other than being noted as being the best character, have double the points of the other 5-7 characters who are not only almost as viable against him and each other as he is but much better against the high/mid/low tier characters in general than MK is? Maybe everyone flocked to MK for reasons that make him that much better than the other top tiers (note that the anti-ban side says the top tier characters have comparable levels of viability with him and each other) and that representation is where all of his results come from. Or maybe the top 8 characters (except for Wario) have very comparable representation in tournaments and the MKs simply excel in tournaments that much more than the other top tier players.

Once again, a good chunk of the tournament winners happen to be some of the best players in the world, who also happen to main MK. He also got picked up as a secondary when people discovered (or were told) how amazing he is. Also, I hear that M2K himself makes up for hundreds of MK's points, but I could be wrong/misremembering.

I don't see how you can bring this in to the pro-ban side without saying "he's too good" or "he's too popular" or "he's over-centralizing the metagame." Really, the most valid one of these is over-centralization, which I guess you could try to make an argument for.

Do note that I am only talking about the most recent tournament listings, but shouldn't the top tiers be catching up with each other if the gap between them is decreasing? Maybe the anti-ban side underestimates MK more than the pro-ban side overestimates him. I hope someone can explain this for me.

- Snake has always been seen as AT LEAST second best character in the game, and for a while people wanted to ban him because they thought he was the best. Some still think this.

- DDD is like Snake but to a lesser extent

- Wario, Diddy, Marth, Falco, G&W, and a few others have experienced changes in their metagame that have affected their results

These characters fluctuate over time. MK goes far ahead because of reasons I have touched upon and reasons that I have not even addressed, one of the main ones being that the very best players play MK and MK is the best.

 

[Deathcarter]

- Popular character
- Best character in the game
- Extremely good representation by highly skilled players

Of course his tournament rankings are going to be the best. Yes, they are a bit ridiculously high, but then again, he is seriously that popular. Maybe I'm biased because my region is a bit gay for MK, but still, he is extremely popular. We all know that a lot of people pick up MK at least as a secondary to deal with some matchups, and a lot of that goes into the tournament placings, too.

-On one hand, only Snake is a legitimately more popular character than MK (among the top tiers anyway) so you have me there. On the other hand, even knowing about his forgiving, offensively orriented, and adaptable moveset, is he simply THAT much more popular than the other top tiers, especially when there is reason to main them over MK, given the current scene's flood of MKs?

Do that many top players migrate to MK, for reasons simlar to that of M2K's, in that MK being the closest thing in Brawl we have to Melee makes him that much more fun? M2K is so far the only person who posts here that knows the other top MKs well, as far as I am aware of. So I would like his (or anyone else who knows a top player well) answer on whether or not the other top players switched to MK over the other top tiers because he is more offensive compared to the rest of the cast. Because filling such an important niche might explain part of the reasons for his popularity.

-He may be the best character in the game, but is it normal for one top tier to have that much more representation than the other top tiers, even if he is the best in the game?

-Are the other top tiers dry of excellent talent compared to MK? If that is the case, is there reason for the top players to go to MK and mostly ignore the other 7? Becaus if there is, wouldn't that be cause enough to further examine the gap between MK and the other top tiers?


EDIT for Successor of Rapheal: MK, being the undisputed best character, will have the most points, even I can see that. But is a gap that big between a best character (MK) and the accepted top tier characters commonpace in competetive games, aka normal? Because if it isn't, then the gap between MK and the top tiers might really be larger than we think, which would make MK more bannable than previously thought.