Curaga
Smash Ace
Super Smash Brothers Brawl:
SERIOUS BUSINESS.
SERIOUS BUSINESS.
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Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ Basically Smash Bros in general is serious business when it come's to competitive play. Everyone should know this, though I still disagree with the fact that Meta Knight should be banned. ☆
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
What is the reason to main characters other than Metaknight that you are speaking of? Also, what are you trying to point out? I have no idea what you are trying to say.
So go ask them. Personal preference =/= proof. Besides, why should M2K post here when half the people here are so into their own conspiracy theories that they demand he talk and then ignore everything he has to say? I'm surprised (and impressed, for what its worth) that he posted here at all.
Show me a game where there is a clear best character in the game and how they AREN'T highly represented.
Anther, Lain, Snake, Candy, Razor, Atomsk... And these are just the people that were at Apex off the top of my head. What is your definition of "dry"?
Amazing Ampharos put up a listing of the top placing characters at 100+ person tourney's top eight spots. Meta wasn't nearly as far off from the other top characters as you are indicating.
Deathcarter
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
- Messages
- 1,358
Assuming someone is a non-MK main facing a MK main, it is often times better to fight a MK main with another character that does well against him rather than their MK secondary, as the main will have the MK knowledge advantage. This is of course they are of equal skill.
Also, you could main Dedede, Snake, or G&W and have equal or larger advantages against the general cast with a few disadvantages here or there that can be overcome (or you could pull out another top tier secondary for a larger advantage than MK could muster for those 65:35 disadvantages your main faces)
M2K really doesn't have to. But why on earth did you bring those up? Those conspiracy arguments don't currently apply here since none of the intelligent people currently posting here even made that argument (I know I or the anti-ban side didn't. Saladob was the only intelligent poster who made an argument like that and he quickly dropped it).
*Facepalm* I CLEARLY admitted that MK would have the highest amount of points in the last post I made. What I am trying to ask is is it normal that the other top tiers aren't dominating tournamets NEARLY as well as the best character despite it being debatable for them to be in the same tier (and utimately same level of viability give or take minute differences)as said best character?
I was asking if the representation of the other top tiers was low, not saying it was dry to begin with. On one hand, if MK has that much more tournament representation than the other top tiers (characters that could be debated as belonging in the same tier as MK), then wouldn't that say something about needing to look into difference in abilities of MK and the rest of the top 8 to discover why players would go to him in mass? On the other hand, if the rest of the top tier had almost equal top player representation, then wouldn't it be odd that the MKs are having THAT much more success than their fellow top tier players and lead people to beleive that MK is THAT much better than the rest of the top tiers?
Basically, I was asking a question, not making an assumption.
Did that list say anything about how many times each character took a particular placing? It could be possible that MK could have won 3 big tournaments while the other tournament winners only won one.
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
Thank you for the clarification, its much appreciated.
I brought it up because it isn't fair to ask M2K to post here knowing full well what will happen. I'm sorry if I came of as rude for saying it, it wasn't intentional.
It isn't debatable whether Metakight is the best character in the game or not, so why does this line of questioning have relevance to the discussion at hand? Who is arguing that there are characters that are near the same tier as Metaknight? Also, if it is a recent thing, how can you use old tourney data as evidence against something that was recently discovered?
And I answered you. No.
His tournament representation has a lot to do with being a secondary, a role he is clearly better at than any other character in the game. Not because he decimates the other characters, but because he covers so many of them with a decent MU. If I'm not mistaken, most tourney results give points to Metaknight when he was used as a secondary, so keep that in mind when you are looking at the tourney results.
There are a multitude of variables to take into consideration when dealing with tournament data, and particular players, such as M2K, are a part of it. If a character was able to place in the top 8 consistently at a large tourney, its an indication of tournament viability, which is what the primary goal is when looking for over-centralization, which is not happening here. That was the purpose of AA's tournament data post. If I'm not mistaken, though, Metaknight was split with a few other characters. You'd have to find the post for confirmation, though. It was a ways back. How far IDK.
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
- Joined
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- 25,073
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- 8132-9932-4710
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
@Deathcarter:
Dojo chose Meta Knight because he likes the character. He played Meta Knight since Day 1.
Dojo chose Meta Knight because he likes the character. He played Meta Knight since Day 1.
I didn't read anything up til now, so I'm just going to answer the original question. Nah. He doesn't need to be banned. I've fought enough Metaknight users to see some flaws and weaknesses in some of the characters attacks and range, and some opening that just beg me to hit him with Zelda's lightning kick or Captain Falcon's knee. (I don't use Captain Falcon except for that time I found out. Lol) I'll tell you though, for those who don't know, a banana from Diddy Kong makes Metaknight look funny. If you use it right.
If he's the best character in the game then why isn't he number 1? I'm sure Moebius and Drago had to smash the hell out of some Metaknight srubs to be where they are now. Kirk as well right? Proves they can do something that other players can't.
I went back and compiled the more detailed statistics for the major tournaments. I should point out that claims that his level of dominance were at any point unknown are silly since the data is publicly available. Predicably, he didn't do so well if you define "well" as demonstrating himself to be broken in any way whatsoever.
To be clear, I considered major tournaments only which I defined as tournaments with at least 90 entrees that occurred in 2009. Here are the results...
Of the 11 major tournaments that were won by someone using only a single character, Meta Knight won FOUR. Snake won two, and five other characters each won one (Diddy Kong, Mr. Game & Watch, King Dedede, Zero Suit Samus, Lucario). Of the number of characters placings total among tournaments won by multiple characters, Meta Knight only gains one placing out of the six (to be more clear, there were actually three tournaments that were won by people using two characters, and the combinations were Marth/Snake, Wario/Ice Climbers, and Meta Knight/Snake). At absolute best, Meta Knight wins 4.5/14 tournaments of this size; in other words, he wins about 32%. Discounting splits moves him all the way up to about 36%. Snake, including splits, is worth about 21% and "other" is worth about 46% (rounding error accounts for the other 1%).
Let's do a similar analysis of 2nd. Meta Knight again has 4 2nd places by himself while Snake has 2, but this time six other characters have a single 2nd place (Diddy Kong, Mr. Game & Watch, Falco, Wario, Pikachu, Luigi). The splits this time were Meta Knight/King Dedede and Wario/King Dedede. Meta Knight is again worth 32% with Snake taking 14% and "other" taking 54%.
I'll cut to the chase and post the full stats.
21 characters are represented among those who placed by themselves, and 27 are represented among characters represented at all. Given that there are only 36 characters, that's not bad. As you might notice, while Meta Knight does the clear best, it's REALLY spread out after 2nd place. Those who are just impressed by a big margin might think it's representative of poor balance (look at how much higher that one place is than any single one of the others!), but an actually rational view of it shows that's not the case at all (would it be better if only 2-3 characters took all of the placings from the lowest 24?). Also remember that these are MAJOR TOURNAMENTS. Even one single placing means a lot. It's easy to look at Kirby and go "only one 7th means Kirby sucks", but consider that that Kirby player had to beat at least 82 other people performance wise with only Kirby to go that far. Any character who can enable someone to do that can't be that bad.
If you still don't believe me about how this isn't that bad at all, look at the data from the 2007 MLG events for melee put into this format.
Of the 9 events, Marth won 7 with Falco and Ice Climbers each snagging one. Those three are also the only characters to ever get 2nd. Of the remaining places left for the rest of the characters, Fox gobbles up a pretty massive number of them. This isn't a statement that melee is a bad game or is horribly balanced or anything; it's just a statement that at the highest levels you tend to see extreme disparity in character performance. It's really true in any fighting game; even if the best is only a little better than the others, the best will come out on top in the long run with all else being equal (when in reality cultural factors are likely to draw the best players to the best characters which further skews results in favor of the best characters). The fact that you see so many random characters still getting top 8 in major tournaments in Brawl is indicative of extremely healthy character diversity.
To be blunt, if you think Meta Knight needs to be banned, major tournament results are not a helpful factor. They are a factor you need to explain away.
To be clear, I considered major tournaments only which I defined as tournaments with at least 90 entrees that occurred in 2009. Here are the results...
Of the 11 major tournaments that were won by someone using only a single character, Meta Knight won FOUR. Snake won two, and five other characters each won one (Diddy Kong, Mr. Game & Watch, King Dedede, Zero Suit Samus, Lucario). Of the number of characters placings total among tournaments won by multiple characters, Meta Knight only gains one placing out of the six (to be more clear, there were actually three tournaments that were won by people using two characters, and the combinations were Marth/Snake, Wario/Ice Climbers, and Meta Knight/Snake). At absolute best, Meta Knight wins 4.5/14 tournaments of this size; in other words, he wins about 32%. Discounting splits moves him all the way up to about 36%. Snake, including splits, is worth about 21% and "other" is worth about 46% (rounding error accounts for the other 1%).
Let's do a similar analysis of 2nd. Meta Knight again has 4 2nd places by himself while Snake has 2, but this time six other characters have a single 2nd place (Diddy Kong, Mr. Game & Watch, Falco, Wario, Pikachu, Luigi). The splits this time were Meta Knight/King Dedede and Wario/King Dedede. Meta Knight is again worth 32% with Snake taking 14% and "other" taking 54%.
I'll cut to the chase and post the full stats.
Code:
Meta Knight: (1st: 4, 2nd: 4, 3rd: 2, 4th: 2, 5th: 3, 7th: 5, 1st*: 1, 2nd*: 1, 3rd*: 4, 4th*: 4, 5th*: 2, 7th*: 2)
Snake: (1st: 2, 2nd: 2, 4th: 1, 5th: 2, 7th: 2, 1st*: 2, 3rd*: 2, 4th*: 1)
Diddy Kong: (1st: 1, 2nd: 1, 3rd: 1, 5th: 2, 7th: 2, 4th*: 1, 5th*: 1, 7th*: 1)
Mr. Game & Watch: (1st: 1, 2nd: 1, 4th: 1, 5th: 1, 7th: 1)
King Dedede: (1st: 1, 4th: 1, 5th: 3, 7th: 1, 2nd*: 2, 3rd*: 2, 7th*: 1)
Zero Suit Samus: (1st: 1, 5th: 1, 7th: 2, 3rd*: 1, 5th: 1)
Lucario: (1st: 1, 5th: 1, 3rd*: 1, 4th*: 1, 5th*: 2)
Falco: (2nd: 1, 5th: 2, 3rd*: 1 4th*: 1, 5th*: 1, 7th*: 1)
Wario: (2nd: 1, 5th: 1, 7th: 1, 1st*: 1, 2nd*: 1, 3rd*: 2, 4th*: 1, 7th*: 1)
Pikachu: (2nd: 1, 7th: 1, 4th*: 1)
Luigi: (2nd: 1, 7th: 1)
R.O.B.: (3rd: 1, 4th*: 1, 5th*: 1, 7th*: 1)
Sonic: (4th: 1, 7th: 2, 7th*: 1)
Lucas: (4th: 1, 3rd*: 1)
Donkey Kong: (4th: 1, 7th*: 1)
Samus: (4th: 1)
Marth: (5th: 2, 7th: 1, 1st*: 1, 3rd*: 2)
Pit: (5th: 1, 4th*: 1)
Toon Link: (5th: 1)
Ness: (5th: 1)
Kirby: (7th: 1)
Ice Climbers: (1st*: 1, 3rd*: 1, 4th*: 1, 7th*: 3)
Zelda & Sheik: (3rd*: 1)
Pokemon Trainer: (3rd*: 1)
Peach: (3rd*: 1)
Wolf: (5th*: 1)
Fox: (7th*: 1)If you still don't believe me about how this isn't that bad at all, look at the data from the 2007 MLG events for melee put into this format.
Code:
Marth: (1st: 7, 2nd: 2, 4th: 1, 5th: 2, 7th: 1)
Falco: (1st: 1, 2nd: 4, 3rd: 1, 5th: 2, 7th: 5)
Ice Climbers: (1st: 1, 2nd: 3, 3rd: 4, 5th: 2)
Fox: (3rd: 2, 4th: 3, 5th: 7, 7th: 5)
Captain Falcon: (3rd: 1, 4th: 2, 5th: 2, 7th: 2)
Jigglypuff: (3rd: 1, 5th: 1)
Sheik: (4th: 1, 5th: 1, 7th: 1)
Peach: 4th: 1, 5th: 1)
Samus: (7th: 3)To be blunt, if you think Meta Knight needs to be banned, major tournament results are not a helpful factor. They are a factor you need to explain away.
Jupz
Smash Master
Nice information Ampharos!!! MK should not be banned!!
Wow, that was one of the best posts of all time.
Marcbri
Smash Lord
now let's wait to the proban side to answer that post. oh wait, they can't =D.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
I've got one for ya, even if I'm anti-ban... Wouldn't it be more balanced without MK? As in, more mid-tiers have a chance, more wins to the other guys, etc.?
Not that it really matters, but still...
Not that it really matters, but still...
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ ... IT WAS LATE!?! XD ☆
☆ But you already know what I was trying to say, I'm still on the anti ban side, though it doesn't make much of a difference though. ☆
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
Short answer:
No.
Pez55
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 6, 2009
- Messages
- 149
No, people would go to Snake if MK was banned.
I'm still for banning him, but there are alot of good reasons I've read now not to ban him.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Dear Marcbri
Please stop ****** me.
~Sincerely
The English Language.
Anyways, I like AA's results one thing though, could you also provide the players who also won those tournaments?
IIRC, most of the tournaments won by Marth were done by the same top people and those below them tended to be more varied. If what I remember is indeed true, then it would be an indication that the top players caused a slight skew. By that, I mean that because those top players used that character, that character won more often.
This is supported when you look at the other characters.
While the other characters did not win as much as Marth did, they placed in the other positions much more often than Marth did.
Unlike Marth, Metaknight wins more than the other characters and also places more than the other characters in other spots.
This further's Metaknight being a stronger character than Marth.
This is my explanation for the melee and brawl results.
I am anti-ban by the way before another person makes the assumption of my position.
*blinks and stares blankly*
And this is different from Brawl's tourney results... how?
Snake wouldn't dominate if MK was banned.
But Ampharos' post shows hwy MK shouldnt be banned.
DDD and G&W would benefit most from removing MK, and probably Marth after them.
...and we all know how much the rest of the cast loves DDD and G&W. Add in Marth, and you have the worst matchup for about half of the entire roster between the 3 of them...
...and we all know how much the rest of the cast loves DDD and G&W. Add in Marth, and you have the worst matchup for about half of the entire roster between the 3 of them...
Marcbri
Smash Lord
English is my FOURTH language, and I think you understand what I write , don't you? I've seen English people write way more typos than me.
it's not like it's m2k the one who has made MK 1st in Ankoku's thread ( maybe he would still be first without m2k, but not by much)
how can a character be stronger than himself?
bigman40
Smash Master
I like this man's reasoning.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
*facepalm*
What do people have issues understanding my statements still?
In melee you had players winning with Marth, yet when you look at the people placing below them, you had a good amount of characters below them.
Looking at the results, the only thing Marth exceled was being in 1st place, yet if Marth was so incredibly good, he would also appear in the top 8 more often which when you look, he did not.
This implies that the reason Marth wins is because of those same players.
In Brawl,the best players are of course going to win with MK, yet when you look at everything else, he also places top 8 more frequently. So there is less variety in the top 8 in comparison to the melee tournaments.
SO while you have the top players winning with MK, you also have other players who are using MK, taking in the top 8.
So you have a greater variety of players placing with Metaknight, than you did with Marth in melee.
There is a difference and if you read the entire thing, rather than that small bit, you would have understood.
I nitpick for the hell of it. My apologies for sounding serious.
Read the latter part. Wihle you do have the same top players wining with MK, you have a greater variety of players placing with MK than Marth in melee.
It was mean to be Marth but my computer disagrees with Ubuntu a bit.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
The IDC was banned a long time ago.
WHy bant he character when you can simply ban the technique?
WHy bant he character when you can simply ban the technique?
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
That tech is banned already.
Marcbri
Smash Lord
sorry if I was rude either, I know my english can't be as good as someone who has it as 1st language so I get a bit mad when someone says something about it =/.
back on topic, still I think that few times a player will beat another player that's better than him just because of picking MK.
( exceptions: Mk being a hard counter, the other player not knowing the match-up).
and well, MK is a better character than melee Marth, I agree with that
This.
Right. And now we have the same top players playing with MK; the reason MK wins is because of those same players.
And, as you seem so obsessed to point out as if the rest of us are blind to it, a lot of the almost-top players are also using MK.
...so now the reason MK sometimes gets 2nd and 3rd and 4th is because of those almost-top players.
.........and? What's you point?
Is is somehow okay that a character is allowed to consistently get just first, but the moment some additional people start placing lower with him, that is somehow different? Are winners supposed to have their character ignored, but no one else?
MK makes up about ~25% of all results on a national scale. No more, no less.
Top 8 placings in national tourneys using the currently discussed data:
MK: 25%
Snake: 11% (35%)
Diddy: 8% (43%)
DDD: 8% (51%)
Wario: 5% (56%)
G&W: 5% (61%)
ZSS: 5% (65%)
Falco: 5% (70%)
Marth: 3% (74%)
Sonic: 3% (77%)
ICs: 3% (80%)
Lucario: 3% (83%)
Luigi: 3% (85%)
ROB: 2% (88%)
Pikachu: 2% (90%)
Lucas: 1% (91%)
DK: 1% (93%)
Pit: 1% (94%)
NINE OTHERS: 6% (100%)
Fox: 24%
Marth: 19% (43%)
Falco: 19% (61%)
ICs: 14% (76%)
Falcon: 10% (86%)
Shiek: 4% (90%)
Samus: 4% (94%)
Peach: 3% (97%)
Jigglypuff: 3% (100%)
Let's break down how completely foolish this argument is by looking at these numbers.
Yes, Meta Knight is one percentage point more dominant on the scene than Fox was. I admit this defeat.
But MK + Snake only make up 35% of placings, while Fox + Marth made up 43% in MLG 2007!
The top 4 Brawl characters barely made up 50% of the Brawl results, while the top 4 Melee characters made up over 75%! You would need to take the TOP TEN Brawl characters to equal the dominance of Melee's top 4!
What if we go to top 6? In Brawl that's barely 60% of the placings, but in Melee, it's over 90%! It takes FIFTEEN unique Brawl characters to cover that amount!
And in total, Brawl has 27 unique characters with national placings in this data (counting PT as only one character), while only 9 characters in Melee placed at all.
Now you tell me, Meta Knight or not, which situation has "more variety"?
And if you actually looked at the data rather than making assumptions, you wouldn't have just embarrassed yourself.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Ok, then I'll say it again... the only reason that our community even has issues with overcentralization as a standard is lack of community maturity.
In other words, because people seem convinced that it has something to do with the number of MK players.
It's been used as a standard for tons of other video games successfully (ones that banned characters and didn't), why does smash need to be different?
The fact that people use it wrong doesn't change the definition. Correct the people who use it like that, and move on.
...
I've beaten players using Akuma in Super Turbo, heck I've done it in HD remix too. Does that mean that in EITHER CASE, they weren't bannable? Heck no, they both were completely and validly bannable under overcentralization, MK is not, at least not as far as we know.
Red Arremer
Smash Legend
What the hell is this crap supposed to mean, seriously. lol
Kinzer
Mammy
It just means that some guy can't do work.
Let me share to you all a story, and even if the same person reads this, that's okay, because he probably already doesn't like me anyway.
Last night I entered SK's third monthly in singles, my first set was against this phenominal Diddy player. Really he was good, but TL:DR I beat him on BF first set, he CPs FD and stayed Diddy. After I lost that I knew he would probably want/would go MK to try and secure a win, but to make sure that he would guarantee me a that same CP character I took us to Frigate (lol I could read him like a book on what he would do next, I really did want him to use a character he wouldn't beat me with, and I would've lost if he stayed Diddy). He was doing so bad (or good, depending on how you look at it) by just doing the stereotypical gay Whorenado/DSmash shizz, and it costed him the match/set because he was so predictable and ending up killing himself/leaving him wide open once he was done with his spam. He never bothered to shake my hand afterwards but I wouldn't want to be a good sport to somebody who didn't want to return the favor anyway.
Guess who I used the whole time.
Let me share to you all a story, and even if the same person reads this, that's okay, because he probably already doesn't like me anyway.
Last night I entered SK's third monthly in singles, my first set was against this phenominal Diddy player. Really he was good, but TL:DR I beat him on BF first set, he CPs FD and stayed Diddy. After I lost that I knew he would probably want/would go MK to try and secure a win, but to make sure that he would guarantee me a that same CP character I took us to Frigate (lol I could read him like a book on what he would do next, I really did want him to use a character he wouldn't beat me with, and I would've lost if he stayed Diddy). He was doing so bad (or good, depending on how you look at it) by just doing the stereotypical gay Whorenado/DSmash shizz, and it costed him the match/set because he was so predictable and ending up killing himself/leaving him wide open once he was done with his spam. He never bothered to shake my hand afterwards but I wouldn't want to be a good sport to somebody who didn't want to return the favor anyway.
Guess who I used the whole time.
X- Sylar -X
Smash Journeyman
Leave him unbanned so all you lalwers can have your fun tapping the red button for 5 effing minutes.
I don't know ne thing about this game and I'd rather keep myself blissfully ignorant, but my oppinion is this....
Seems like metaknight is stupidly easy to use and harder to beat at high levels of play, but banning him won't change much in my oppinion seeing as hes the only char who can keep up with snake. Who i also thing is incredibly cheap becuase you can run around ne stage camping your d!ck off and it makes you look like your on the offensive lol.
If im right DDD is next up on the list and i think he is very beatable by some of the lower tiers....
my suggestion is for one effing tourney try banning the 2 busted as ****** chars and bring a lil balance to the force :D
I don't know ne thing about this game and I'd rather keep myself blissfully ignorant, but my oppinion is this....
Seems like metaknight is stupidly easy to use and harder to beat at high levels of play, but banning him won't change much in my oppinion seeing as hes the only char who can keep up with snake. Who i also thing is incredibly cheap becuase you can run around ne stage camping your d!ck off and it makes you look like your on the offensive lol.
If im right DDD is next up on the list and i think he is very beatable by some of the lower tiers....
my suggestion is for one effing tourney try banning the 2 busted as ****** chars and bring a lil balance to the force :D
.AC.
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,122
i recomend you inform yourself before making a statement or suggestion.
...ban Snake? That's gotta be one of the more rediculous things I've heard this past week.
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