Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[d4bA]

long post that ignores obvious math principles.

brawl has 35 characters.
melee has 25 characters.

Chances that certain characters are going to be better than others in most fighters?
I'll list you some examples. 56 characters in marvel vs capcom 2, 4 make up most team combinations. 19 tournament played characters in 3rd strike. 3 make up most tournament top 3 placings. Street fighter 2 turbo, 12 characters (not champion edition) and only a couple were placing high (until sagat got banned/depends where u played the game).

Do some rough math and you'll see that 10ish% of character viability is good. The unique method of how brawl matches work out allow many characters to be useful in tournament. However, since MK works so well all around and everywhere. Players would rather not be counterpicked at all and simply choose MK.

I believe this game has some the largest character playability than any other fighter; without Mk involved. How many times have you played a tournament match whenever someone loses the first round with their favorite character and plays MK throughout the rest of the set? It gets old.

 

[Falconv1.0]

brawl has 35 characters.
melee has 25 characters.

Chances that certain characters are going to be better than others in most fighters?
I'll list you some examples. 56 characters in marvel vs capcom 2, 4 make up most team combinations. 19 tournament played characters in 3rd strike. 3 make up most tournament top 3 placings. Street fighter 2 turbo, 12 characters (not champion edition) and only a couple were placing high (until sagat got banned/depends where u played the game).

Do some rough math and you'll see that 10ish% of character viability is good. The unique method of how brawl matches work out allow many characters to be useful in tournament. However, since MK works so well all around and everywhere. Players would rather not be counterpicked at all and simply choose MK.

I believe this game has some the largest character playability than any other fighter; without Mk involved. How many times have you played a tournament match whenever someone loses the first round with their favorite character and plays MK throughout the rest of the set? It gets old.

You're saying we should ban Mk because people cant get better and instead of getting better cp MK and baaawww? Are you a ****ing ***?

 

[Sosuke]

*holds in laughter*

 

[Falconv1.0]

Oh, also, you think it would be more fun having matches between mainly top tiers, who are almost exclusive camping whores compared to MK who can actually approach without getting ****ed over?

And being less boring is the sole reason for a ban?

Really now?

 

[RDK]

You're saying we should ban Mk because people cant get better and instead of getting better cp MK and baaawww? Are you a ****ing ***?

No, you stupid ape. Read his post.

The point is that Brawl has a very different matchup mechanic than Melee did. In Melee you had the top tiers all doing well against each other and most of the middle tier, while the lower tiers had attributes that allowed them to exploit odd quirks in the higher tiers.

In Brawl you have characters that may be hard and soft counters for other characters, but have plenty of counters against them also. Why risk being counterpicked with your actual main when you can just go Meta Knight through the entire tournament and do roughly well against the entire roster? If you're playing to win, you will.

Oh, also, you think it would be more fun having matches between mainly top tiers, who are almost exclusive camping whores compared to MK who can actually approach without getting ****ed over?

And being less boring is the sole reason for a ban?

Really now?

If you knew anything about Melee you would realize that camping can easily be punished if it's abused. Can't really say the same for Brawl.

 

[Falconv1.0]

No, you stupid ape. Read his post.

The point is that Brawl has a very different matchup mechanic than Melee did. In Melee you had the top tiers all doing well against each other and most of the middle tier, while the lower tiers had attributes that allowed them to exploit odd quirks in the higher tiers.

In Brawl you have characters that may be hard and soft counters for other characters, but have plenty of counters against them also. Why risk being counterpicked with your actual main when you can just go Meta Knight through the entire tournament and do roughly well against the entire roster? If you're playing to win, you will.

Being the best is not a good reason to ban something.

And yeah, I already know Melee doesn't suck. I said nothing about it though, so um, gtfo?

 

[Inui]

@Pro-ban:

Right. And now we have the same top players playing with MK; the reason MK wins is because of those same players.

And, as you seem so obsessed to point out as if the rest of us are blind to it, a lot of the almost-top players are also using MK.

...so now the reason MK sometimes gets 2nd and 3rd and 4th is because of those almost-top players.

.........and? What's you point?

Is is somehow okay that a character is allowed to consistently get just first, but the moment some additional people start placing lower with him, that is somehow different? Are winners supposed to have their character ignored, but no one else?

MK makes up about ~25% of all results on a national scale. No more, no less.



Top 8 placings in national tourneys using the currently discussed data:

MK: 25%
Snake: 11% (35%)
Diddy: 8% (43%)
DDD: 8% (51%)
Wario: 5% (56%)
G&W: 5% (61%)
ZSS: 5% (65%)
Falco: 5% (70%)
Marth: 3% (74%)
Sonic: 3% (77%)
ICs: 3% (80%)
Lucario: 3% (83%)
Luigi: 3% (85%)
ROB: 2% (88%)
Pikachu: 2% (90%)
Lucas: 1% (91%)
DK: 1% (93%)
Pit: 1% (94%)
NINE OTHERS: 6% (100%)

Fox: 24%
Marth: 19% (43%)
Falco: 19% (61%)
ICs: 14% (76%)
Falcon: 10% (86%)
Shiek: 4% (90%)
Samus: 4% (94%)
Peach: 3% (97%)
Jigglypuff: 3% (100%)

Let's break down how completely foolish this argument is by looking at these numbers.

Yes, Meta Knight is one percentage point more dominant on the scene than Fox was. I admit this defeat.

But MK + Snake only make up 35% of placings, while Fox + Marth made up 43% in MLG 2007!

The top 4 Brawl characters barely made up 50% of the Brawl results, while the top 4 Melee characters made up over 75%! You would need to take the TOP TEN Brawl characters to equal the dominance of Melee's top 4!

What if we go to top 6? In Brawl that's barely 60% of the placings, but in Melee, it's over 90%! It takes FIFTEEN unique Brawl characters to cover that amount!

And in total, Brawl has 27 unique characters with national placings in this data (counting PT as only one character), while only 9 characters in Melee placed at all.

Now you tell me, Meta Knight or not, which situation has "more variety"?



And if you actually looked at the data rather than making assumptions, you wouldn't have just embarrassed yourself.

Get *****.

 

[RDK]

Being the best is not a good reason to ban something.

Good lord. He's not pro-ban; he's replying to Thinkaman's post, which erroneously stated that MK did not place as high and as often as everybody said he did. Nowhere in there did he say that MK should be banned.

On the contrary; even though he is placing as well as he is, it's still no reason to ban him.

And yeah, I already know Melee doesn't suck. I said nothing about it though, so um, gtfo?

Really? Odd. Then what was all this about:

Oh, also, you think it would be more fun having matches between mainly top tiers, who are almost exclusive camping whores compared to MK who can actually approach without getting ****ed over?

Sounds like Melee to me.

 

[PikaPika!]

I love looking at peoples join dates personally
Join Date: Feb 2008

 

[Falconv1.0]

"Oh, also, you think it would be more fun having matches between mainly top tiers, who are almost exclusive camping whores compared to MK who can actually approach without getting ****ed over?"

I was comparing MK to the other top tiers, are you a ****ing ***?

PikaPika dont be a ****ing troll.

 

[Kamikaze*]

I only come to this thread to laugh now.

Leave him unbanned so all you lalwers can have your fun tapping the red button for 5 effing minutes.

I don't know ne thing about this game and I'd rather keep myself blissfully ignorant, but my oppinion is this....

Seems like metaknight is stupidly easy to use and harder to beat at high levels of play, but banning him won't change much in my oppinion seeing as hes the only char who can keep up with snake. Who i also thing is incredibly cheap becuase you can run around ne stage camping your d!ck off and it makes you look like your on the offensive lol.

If im right DDD is next up on the list and i think he is very beatable by some of the lower tiers....

my suggestion is for one effing tourney try banning the 2 busted as ****** chars and bring a lil balance to the force :D

posts like this are the reason why^^^

 

[Inui]

I love looking at peoples join dates personally
Join Date: Feb 2008

BECAUSE THIS DETERMINES SKILL.

lol

 

[Sosuke]

If you knew anything about Melee you would realize that camping can easily be punished if it's abused. Can't really say the same for Brawl.

Powershielding is much easier in Brawl? Its really not that hard to avoid spam.
Maybe not ALTOGETHER, but its not to the point where its like "OMFG THIS IS STUPID **** THIS GAME AND EVERYONE WHO PLAYS IT ****".

I mean, just learn timing your shield.
Example: Dojo who plays Santi a lot. Santi = spam-masta. Dojo = powershield-everything-masta.
Theres a reason for that.

 

[Eddie G]

Being the best is not a good reason to ban something.

And yeah, I already know Melee doesn't suck. I said nothing about it though, so um, gtfo?

It's not about him being the best. Their point is about CENTRALIZATION.

C.E.N.T.R.A.L.I.Z.A.T.I.O.N.

Christ, Falcon...

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I love looking at peoples join dates personally
Join Date: Feb 2008

Join date isn't important.

I could glean information from here every day with my join date, but does that mean that someone who made an account here in 2005 but came on twice knows more than me?

Get *****.

 

[TheJerm]

@Pro-ban:



Get *****.

I'm not on any side, but your comparing melee, when it was out for years by the time of 2007. Brawl has only been out for very little over a year. So the top 4 might not be as concrete yet. Later on in brawl, there could be a top 4/5 that dominates, like melee has.

 

[Falconv1.0]

It's not about him being the best. Their point is about CENTRALIZATION.

C.E.N.T.R.A.L.I.Z.A.T.I.O.N.

Christ, Falcon...

I get their point, their point is terrible! Amazing Ampharos already ***** the **** out of that point, and um, RDK misread my post as hard as he possibly could.

 

[Inui]

I'm not on any side, but your comparing melee, when it was out for years by the time of 2007. Brawl has only been out for very little over a year. So the top 4 might not be as concrete yet. Later on in brawl, there could be a top 4/5 that dominates, like melee has.

Thus, it's way too early to ban MK if there's still way more variety in Brawl than in Melee.

 

[Alus]

It's not about him being the best. Their point is about CENTRALIZATION.

C.E.N.T.R.A.L.I.Z.A.T.I.O.N.

Christ, Falcon...

I thought that point was destroyed centuries ago!

srsly WTF!?

EDIT: God dammit Falcon beat me...by 3 fcking min

 

[Kamikaze*]

It's not about him being the best. Their point is about CENTRALIZATION.

C.E.N.T.R.A.L.I.Z.A.T.I.O.N.

Christ, Falcon...

Right. And now we have the same top players playing with MK; the reason MK wins is because of those same players.

And, as you seem so obsessed to point out as if the rest of us are blind to it, a lot of the almost-top players are also using MK.

...so now the reason MK sometimes gets 2nd and 3rd and 4th is because of those almost-top players.

.........and? What's you point?

Is is somehow okay that a character is allowed to consistently get just first, but the moment some additional people start placing lower with him, that is somehow different? Are winners supposed to have their character ignored, but no one else?

MK makes up about ~25% of all results on a national scale. No more, no less.



Top 8 placings in national tourneys using the currently discussed data:

MK: 25%
Snake: 11% (35%)
Diddy: 8% (43%)
DDD: 8% (51%)
Wario: 5% (56%)
G&W: 5% (61%)
ZSS: 5% (65%)
Falco: 5% (70%)
Marth: 3% (74%)
Sonic: 3% (77%)
ICs: 3% (80%)
Lucario: 3% (83%)
Luigi: 3% (85%)
ROB: 2% (88%)
Pikachu: 2% (90%)
Lucas: 1% (91%)
DK: 1% (93%)
Pit: 1% (94%)
NINE OTHERS: 6% (100%)

Fox: 24%
Marth: 19% (43%)
Falco: 19% (61%)
ICs: 14% (76%)
Falcon: 10% (86%)
Shiek: 4% (90%)
Samus: 4% (94%)
Peach: 3% (97%)
Jigglypuff: 3% (100%)

Let's break down how completely foolish this argument is by looking at these numbers.

Yes, Meta Knight is one percentage point more dominant on the scene than Fox was. I admit this defeat.

But MK + Snake only make up 35% of placings, while Fox + Marth made up 43% in MLG 2007!

The top 4 Brawl characters barely made up 50% of the Brawl results, while the top 4 Melee characters made up over 75%! You would need to take the TOP TEN Brawl characters to equal the dominance of Melee's top 4!

What if we go to top 6? In Brawl that's barely 60% of the placings, but in Melee, it's over 90%! It takes FIFTEEN unique Brawl characters to cover that amount!

And in total, Brawl has 27 unique characters with national placings in this data (counting PT as only one character), while only 9 characters in Melee placed at all.

Now you tell me, Meta Knight or not, which situation has "more variety"?



And if you actually looked at the data rather than making assumptions, you wouldn't have just embarrassed yourself.

lol, wut??

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Jerm knows that Inui, he's just saying that Thinkaman's argument isn't valid yet, because of the fact that Brawl is so young compared to Melee.

If we could find info like that for the first year or so of Melee, that would be helpful.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I thought that point was destroyed centuries ago!

srsly WTF!?

Which is why it should be ignored and laughed at.

 

[Eddie G]

I'm not on any side, but your comparing melee, when it was out for years by the time of 2007. Brawl has only been out for very little over a year. So the top 4 might not be as concrete yet. Later on in brawl, there could be a top 4/5 that dominates, like melee has.

No offense to you personally, but blind optimism is blind.

 

[Eddie G]

lol, wut??

lol, just trying to be a pain for Falcon. I stopped taking this thread seriously, especially after Apex. Apparently there are some people who still get their panties in a bunch over the subject.

EDIT: SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

lol, just trying to be a pain for Falcon. I stopped taking this thread seriously, especially after Apex.

Then why are you here?

 

[Red Arremer]

I love looking at peoples join dates personally
Join Date: Feb 2008

So? What does that prove? Do you think a person who registered on the forums only recently couldn't be able to lurk it for years? Do you think a person who registered only recently couldn't fare well in tournaments or know about the game?

Seriously, pointing with fingers at join dates and using them as an "argument" as to why someone would not state the truth is pretty much the most dumbest and ridiculous thing ever.

 

[Kinzer]

PP! is just being a troll Spade, don't fall for his mindgames.

He's a pretty cool guy on the Sonic xat.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Wait so what? Is there actually a legitimate reason for people wanting MK banned? I've searched through the last few pages of this thread and found nothing but a lot of whining, the type of which we've had endlessly over the past few months. I don't think MK has one bannable quality. The notion of banning MK is a joke to me, personally.

 

[Red Arremer]

PP! is just being a troll Spade, don't fall for his mindgames.

He's a pretty cool guy on the Sonic xat.

I'm tired, so I'm not in the sharpest state right now. It still annoys me if someone rambles about join dates, it's absolutely ridiculous.

 

[LocoCoco]

i dont see why we should ban him. he's like any other character: has strengths and weaknesses. study a meta guide and apply his offensive techniques to ur defensive. pick him up for a little while maybe and imagine wats going on in the mind of a meta that u could b playing. thats all i got.

no ban

 

[Pez55]

pick him up for a little while maybe and imagine wats going on in the mind of a meta that u could b playing.

I doubt their thinking of anything other then what move to kill you with.

has strengths and weaknesses.

Fixed

 

[RDK]

"Oh, also, you think it would be more fun having matches between mainly top tiers, who are almost exclusive camping whores compared to MK who can actually approach without getting ****ed over?"

I was comparing MK to the other top tiers, are you a ****ing ***?

PikaPika dont be a ****ing troll.

Maybe if you didn't post like you were a drooling five year old I would have been able to tell what the hell you were talking about. Better luck next time.

Powershielding is much easier in Brawl? Its really not that hard to avoid spam.
Maybe not ALTOGETHER, but its not to the point where its like "OMFG THIS IS STUPID **** THIS GAME AND EVERYONE WHO PLAYS IT ****".

I mean, just learn timing your shield.
Example: Dojo who plays Santi a lot. Santi = spam-masta. Dojo = powershield-everything-masta.
Theres a reason for that.

You cite two players to prove how easy it is to powershield everything in Brawl?

As soon as I see you win a high-level tournament where you powershield all projectiles (actually it doesn't even have to be all; just 50%) then I'll concede your point.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Maybe if you didn't post like you were a drooling five year old I would have been able to tell what the hell you were talking about. Better luck next time.

Maybe if you weren't the only one who couldn't read the pretty ****ing simple english that statement would be valid.

 

[TheJerm]

No offense to you personally, but blind optimism is blind.

Sorry, I got get what you are saying.

 

[RDK]

Jerm knows that Inui, he's just saying that Thinkaman's argument isn't valid yet, because of the fact that Brawl is so young compared to Melee.

Don't forget the part where Thinkaman apparently believes Brawl and Melee have the same roster size. Probably important if you're going to go around pretending like you know anything about either game.

Maybe if you weren't the only one who couldn't read the pretty ****ing simple english that statement would be valid.

Nowhere in your post did you mention Brawl by name. Seeing as how people like you enjoy pegging Melee, I assumed you were contrasting the two games. Also, if you were aware of the conversation at all you would have noticed that I was talking about them anyway, so your response was nonsensical.

Whether or not you used English has nothing to do with it, but as far as your intelligence goes you might as well have been speaking Russian.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Don't forget the part where Thinkaman apparently believes Brawl and Melee have the same roster size. Probably important if you're going to go around pretending like you know anything about either game.

Are you talking to me, or adding to my statement?

 

[RDK]

Are you talking to me, or adding to my statement?

I was agreeing with you.

Its called an example.

Are you saying powershielding isn't easy lmao
Have you even like, tried it? Have you tried it in Melee?
Which ones 25876 times easier?
If a player takes a day or to to learn how to do it pretty consistently, then thats it.

There's a difference between knowing how to to something outside of a match and knowing how to apply it practically inside a match.

Like I said. Win a tournament where you effectively powershield even 50% of all projectiles, and I'll concede your point. Until then, shut up.

 

[Sosuke]

You cite two players to prove how easy it is to powershield everything in Brawl?

As soon as I see you win a high-level tournament where you powershield all projectiles (actually it doesn't even have to be all; just 50%) then I'll concede your point.

Its called an example.

Are you saying powershielding isn't easy lmao
Have you even like, tried it? Have you tried it in Melee?
Which one is 25876 times easier?
If a player takes a day or to to learn how to do it pretty consistently, then thats it.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Nowhere in your post did you mention Brawl by name. Seeing as how people like you enjoy pegging Melee, I assumed you were contrasting the two games. Also, if you were aware of the conversation at all you would have noticed that I was talking about them anyway, so your response was nonsensical.

Whether or not you used English has nothing to do with it, but as far as your intelligence goes you might as well have been speaking Russian.

Sorry but that **** is kinda hard to take seriously when you're the only one who didn't get it yet you're still calling me a dumb ***.

Hey, troll less like an arse next time.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I was agreeing with you.

Goo d.