Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Curaga]

marth isn't going to just toss out his dolphin slash at random every time he's getting attacked, I think you're really grasping at straws there to try and prove that he's less safe...both characters are unusually safe, I think MK is the better character because he has better recovery and more easily useable kill moves, as well as being much more consistent(when you have a bad game playing marth you feel it a lot worse than MK because he requires a much sharper focus).

also MK's lightness isn't that bad compared to marth when you consider how amazing his momentum canceling is.

EDIT: MK's dair can't spike you, it can stage spike you in certain situations though and it is a great gimping attack.

Agreed with the Marth statements. His counter attack is a better example of a "Get the hell off me Move", its also a great K.O move in itself at higher percentages/proper placement.

Momentum cancelling sure, but when you get that good smack in, you notice it more with him by far than Marth. Unless at really high-percents it always seems like Marth is back in your face rather quickly with Fairs, and baiting for a Counter attack.

Thanks for the info on the Dair, I figured as much.

As for what Kinzer is saying about Marth's Uair, its useful, its just usually better to feint the Uair, let them try to get their hit in first, then counter. In my opinion, its also better to be on the ground and up smash as Marth, than to pursue an aerial opponent with a Uair.

 

[Red Arremer]

Also Spade I can't sugoarcoat it, that was a pathedic counter argument.

You know that even if Nair is MK's worst aerial, it's still stupid fast and deals very nice damage?! (somewhere between 2-5 frames and for damage... well I can't recall, but yeah)

It was no counter argument. I was asking you to not do these direct comparisons, because both characters have other traits they are worse at than the other one. If you say "Meta Knight's DAir is more useful than Marth's", I'll say that "Marth's Jab is more useful than Meta Knight's". Just for instance. I hope you get what I mean.

Direct comparisons make sense if you actually compare the moves by themselves (i.e. which UTilt is better?), but if you compare characters, making direct comparisons leaves some kinda bad aftertaste, because they have different movesets, thus different move traits.

 

[Kinzer]

Oh, alright then. Acknowledged since I also mentioned that I didn't want to only use direct comparisons as an example.

Carry on Spade.

As for the post concerning something like Counter... honestly Conuter is just a situational mix-up, it's fast but not fast enough to use unless you got an opponent who is making a barrage on you but slow enoguh to leave those few frames of freedom there. It also doesn't kill and relies on player habit, if Marth whiffs that then expect a smash attack.

You also said it yourself, it won't kill until higher percentages/a strong attack was countered, which shouldn't happen often if ever.

And you're even suggesting that Marth's Uair is not to be used (also not Upsmash, Utilt is faster at the cost of little kill power), which just further proofs that in the aerial field MK might have a slight edge.

 

[Nic64]

Direct comparison - Uairs - MK's is clearly better, only thing Marth has over it is killing power when tippered.

actually marth's is a bit easier to juggle with IMO, a lot of that also has to do with his aerial mobility but it having the greater range is also good.

Indirect comparison, how about the usefulness of their F/Bairs? Marth's is just a one (hit)-trick pony, whereas MK has 3 hits to back up his (he's also lagless on both, but MK's Bair covers less, but Marth's has more lag).

MK's fair can also be SDI'd out of before it's finished because of that, and it's about 5 frames longer than marth's in total IIRC, if it hits a shield or misses entirely it leaves him every bit as open as marth if not more so. then there's the range and power thing. MK is definitely the better character in general but he does not have the better fair, MK with marth's fair probably would be broken actually(or, can you imagine a flying marth? recovery would be an impossibility for like half the cast lmao)

What Does Marth have when his shield is getting pressured that isn't Dolphin Slash? Nothing is as fast or as hardhitting as that (don't suggest Jab lol).

shield drop dancing blade works fine for most situations, he can also aerial attack out of shield or utilize any number of other options but dancing blade is a great retaliatory attack most of the time.

 

[Red Arremer]

Meta Knight's aerials are ridiculous, but his aerial mobility is pretty bad. When in the air, Marth has an easier time reaching his opponent than Meta Knight does in terms of speed.

I think we can agree that both characters excel in the air. Meta Knight might have an edge, but it's very very small.

 

[Kinzer]

Oh.

Alright, you win in everything except Uair.

Does marth really have more range on his Uair? trying to get a visual of how they look, I would think Marth's only extends upward slightly while MK has a better horizontal hitbox on his and is still faster. MK is also pretty immoble and slow in the air but I would think when it comes to land-camping/juggling where is he faster he still has that same pursuit that Marth has... just in a different field.

I'm going to bed, good night.

 

[Nic64]

yep. MK's air range is good but I think a decent number of characters outrange him in the air, his ground range is what can be really ridiculous, his ftilt and dtilt outrange all of snake's ground attacks except for the second hit of ftilt IIRC, and for some ******** reason MK's dtilt outranges Marth's...the hitboxes in this game are pretty stupid a lot of the time...

 

[Red Arremer]

the hitboxes in this game are pretty stupid a lot of the time...

Snake's Up Tilt is pretty much the best proof for this statement, lol

 

[Curaga]

Majority of the kills that are made on me on smaller stages have been through counters. Usually in the air/off the stage.

Obviously, Counter takes a lot of focus and reading of the opponent.

Example with Sonic, you spring high above the stage to try to get a kill Bair or a Uair, if Counter is timed properly, you can be sent off even at around 60% because you're so close to the end of the level. With my other main of Fox, (who I think is really easy to read since his moves haven't changed too much since Melee) counterattack can send me flying to a point where I can get edgehogged easily. (Also, trying to recover onto the stage, some characters can be countered effectively to their death)

I'm not saying to never use Marth's Uair either. His Fair, Dair, and aerial B moves are just more effective generally. But thats all just situational garble.

In an attempt to get back onto topic, why is MK so superior in a Marth match up?

 

[Red Arremer]

To put it as the Marth mains do:
"Meta Knight can do everything Marth can, just better."

 

[Nic64]

why is MK so superior in a Marth match up?

MK outranges him on the ground on most safe attacks

marth in the air has a lot of difficulty dealing with tornado

MK has safer/easier kill moves

gimping/edge guarding advantage

better stage counterpicks

marth players probably have more to say about that but yeah...

 

[swordgard]

Snake's Up Tilt is pretty much the best proof for this statement, lol

Its not broken though(i mean in terms of game mechanics, not balance), if you look at the animation, snake really DOES do that movement. Its just very very very fast.

Also, metaknights upair>marths upair if only for the fact that you got way better comboes, has way less lag and covers almost the whole range horizontally super fast.

 

[Red Arremer]

Its not broken though(i mean in terms of game mechanics, not balance), if you look at the animation, snake really DOES do that movement. Its just very very very fast.

I mean in terms of balance. It's disjointed, and has a ridiculously big hitbox. That's what I mean.

 

[Nic64]

Also, metaknights upair>marths upair if only for the fact that you got way better comboes, has way less lag and covers almost the whole range horizontally super fast.

it's comboing is somewhat circumstancial though, if I were going to say that it was the better attack, and honestly I think it's close, I'd say the main thing that tips it in MK's favor for that attack is what an amazing momentum cancel it is, it makes up for MK's light weight A LOT.

 

[Dynomite]

ALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



lets ban snake

 

[Curaga]

lets ban snake

This requires Kojima and a Kenyan Mangrove Crab..

I've never encountered either. =/

 

[Red Arremer]

This requires Kojima and a Kenyan Mangrove Crab..

I've never encountered either. =/

I lol'd at that reference.

 

[Alus]

Next person that posts after this is a ***

 

[Yuna]

Also, the ranking shows that MK dominates more than Marth though only by a little.

Because Marth gets countered by MK, who negates his existence?

I don't really see how those are arguable, people who main any of those 3 characters will agree...

and marth's advantages are largely 6:4's, I think snake, falco, game and watch, DDD, and olimar are all better examples of characters that **** most of the cast but also have a few disadvantages.

Two 60:40s =/= cannot dominate.

My assumption is that a competitive gaming environment is similar to other competitive environments, and a majority of (at least the major ones) competitive environments that I'm aware of start opponents off on even ground (Or as close to even as the format allows).

If you mean "Everyone starts with equal stats", that's true. In all Competitive fighting games, people have the same handicap and the same lifebar at the start of the game. This is also true for Brawl.

If you mean trying to even up the match-ups. No. Just no.

I don't know why the bolding needs to be explained. That should be common sense, but then again, maybe I just found the reason.

Have you never heard the SWF saying "Common sense is not necessarily common."?

 

[Brinzy]

Yeah, I hear that saying almost everywhere, and I've gone from somewhat believing it to embracing it...

Next person that posts after this is a Fag

That had to be an edit. ejejejeje.

 

[Alus]

Because Marth gets countered by MK, who negates his existence?


Two 60:40s =/= cannot dominate.


If you mean "Everyone starts with equal stats", that's true. In all Competitive fighting games, people have the same handicap and the same lifebar at the start of the game. This is also true for Brawl.

If you mean trying to even up the match-ups. No. Just no.


Have you never heard the SWF saying "Common sense is not necessarily common."?

DAMMIT YUNA!!!!!

 

[Mr.-0]

I know this has been said many times before even though it happened like a week ago, but.... M2K definitely was not sandbagging and ally beat him 3 to 1. And M2K was the previous god of brawl and king of the metaknights. In fact, he's still better than dojo so he's still the king of the metaknights. And he lost. while this is a horrible base for a con-metaknight ban, the onl;y reason I voted yes was so ally could beat M2K. He did so fair and square. Does't that sorta prove something?

 

[Master Raven]

the hitboxes in this game are pretty stupid a lot of the time...

Did you know DDD can shield grab Snake's Utilt on a platform if Snake tries to Utilt him from below? >_>

 

[P. O. F.]

Yeah, Snakes up tilt also stage spikes if you are close enough to the ledge and someone is hanging from it and does not react quickly enough.

Snake is still semi legit though...hes very beatable.

It basically goes like this

Snake is retardedly good and his hitboxes are the dumbest in the game....but hes very beatable

and then you have

MK is god like and his hitboxes, ko options, and recovery are the dumbest in the game....but hes not as beatable.

At least Snake is beatable. To put it even more simply, if a character does not have a move that beats out tornado its basically an auto win for meta knight.

 

[Brinzy]

Every character has a move that beats out the Tornado, and it is not even MK's deadliest aspect.

 

[Flayl]

To put it as the Marth mains do:
"Meta Knight can do everything Marth can, just better."

This notion is wrong, MK can't SH double FAir and then follow up with a blade dance. He can SH FAir to tilt on ground, but it's not the same. Doesn't shield pressure as hard or cover as much distance.

Also Marth has tipper FSmash. MK is deadlier if the opponent is closer, but at that range Marth is better at KO'ing.

If you mean "Everyone starts with equal stats", that's true. In all Competitive fighting games, people have the same handicap and the same lifebar at the start of the game. This is also true for Brawl.

They decided to change that in SF4 for some reason. One of the reasons Zangief and more so Sagat are stupid. At least you can camp Zangief.

 

[Affinity]

Did you know DDD can shield grab Snake's Utilt on a platform if Snake tries to Utilt him from below? >_>

That is amazing.

 

[nevershootme]

Did you know DDD can shield grab Snake's Utilt on a platform if Snake tries to Utilt him from below? >_>

yes and you can trigger a mine with g&w below or u-tilt with snake on it

heck a grounded moved can leaave you in a ducking state preventing you from taking hits above. how lovely hitboxes

 

[thumbswayup]

I lol'd at that reference.

But the demon...

Did you know DDD can shield grab Snake's Utilt on a platform if Snake tries to Utilt him from below? >_>

There's no way

 

[Kinzer]

Oh don't be so surpsied, not with this kind of a game.

Also Nic it doesn't really matter since I'm super late and I only remembered this in my 3 hours of sleep but I think you can SDI Martha's DB and end up behind him/her and work from there.

Please don't bother responding to this though, I'm not trying to make an argument, just a statement that I feel like sharing with anybody if they didn't already know.

 

[Mew2King]

I know this has been said many times before even though it happened like a week ago, but.... M2K definitely was not sandbagging and ally beat him 3 to 1. And M2K was the previous god of brawl and king of the metaknights. In fact, he's still better than dojo so he's still the king of the metaknights. And he lost. while this is a horrible base for a con-metaknight ban, the onl;y reason I voted yes was so ally could beat M2K. He did so fair and square. Does't that sorta prove something?

I still think I'm the "god of brawl" as you say, he just played better this time so he won. That doesn't suddenly make him better cuz he won once. I think the matchup is even now though cuz of Candy ****** Dojo and Ally beating me. My record vs him is still HIGHLY in my favor though, and slightly better vs other people (Cuz of consistent 1st in teams w/ random teammates and not losing to azen's ddd).

 

[P. O. F.]

Every character has a move that beats out the Tornado, and it is not even MK's deadliest aspect.

Donkey Kong
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Wario
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Fox

All don't and even the characters that DO have t and a move that stop the Tornado its not like its such a good move that the Meta Knight just can't keep abusing Neu B anyway. "OMG Link, Toon Link, and Falco can all stop with me their 3% projectile hit and Marth can punish me with his counter. I gotta watch out and never use the Tornado ever again. Tell me a USEFUL move that stops the tornado? I better start watching out for Olimars upB now. Don't want that 8 %

That doesn't suddenly make him better cuz he won once.

This. People need to STFU about the Ally match. He beat him like one time. Get over it.

 

[Red Arremer]

I still think I'm the "god of brawl" as you say, he just played better this time so he won. That doesn't suddenly make him better cuz he won once. I think the matchup is even now though cuz of Candy ****** Dojo and Ally beating me. My record vs him is still HIGHLY in my favor though, and slightly better vs other people (Cuz of consistent 1st in teams w/ random teammates and not losing to azen's ddd).

Sorry to bother you Mew2King, but would you be so kind and tell those silly people that you played against Ally as hard as you could? Did you play gay, in your opinion?

Those people still accuse you of not playing at your best. It's insulting to both you and Ally, and I know it's dumb that you had to state the same over 9000 times already, but they don't want to believe me you were playing at your best against Ally (and Lain in your second set with him).

 

[Browny]

im pretty sure most of those characters can beat the nado with a few attacks

DKs giant punch, ftilt
wario ftilt
Sonic fsmash, bair

I know can work, and the others im kinda sure can beat it (ganon fair for example) but the spacing involves the MK doing it wrong...

 

[arch knight]

those percentages do add up and getting hit with lasers mid button push can really screw metas up causing them to get 6-12% more damage if shielding gives way meaning it didnt cover it not that it broke and during early startup of a nado its still possible to knock him out with characters who can hit with the tip of their attacks

 

[Red Arremer]

This. People need to STFU about the Ally match. He beat him like one time. Get over it.

Of course it doesn't mean Ally is so much better or something.
But it still is insulting for both players that Mew2King is being accused of not playing at his best despite he said so.
Just because of the statement "I try to not play gay when possible to encourage people to do the same" the fact he said "I played as hard as I could" is disregarded and doesn't mean anything anymore. -.-

 

[Mew2King]

I was trying against Ally omg, he just played better this time

so what no johns!

it doesn't mean he's suddenly better than me now though, and it doesn't mean that if I lost it means I wasn't trying. He played better, he won, he deserved it. That simple.

 

[Vorguen]

They decided to change that in SF4 for some reason. One of the reasons Zangief and more so Sagat are stupid. At least you can camp Zangief.

...Lariat.

 

[Kinzer]

People have made THREADS on how to counter MK's Tornado, I would suggest doing a tiny bit more research before you start making claims.

 

[Master Raven]

Donkey Kong
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Wario
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Fox

DK, Peach, Wario, CF, Ganon and Sonic have moves that can beat the tornado directly (though not all of them are reliable). Technically every character is able to beat the tornado if they can attack the opening spot from above, but it's difficult.

Btw M2K I think a lot of people are just experiencing cognitive dissonance from your set lol.