Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

[Vorguen]

Maybe tournaments should start offering higher payouts to people who don't go as Meta Knight.

 

[Toony]

I think yes MK should be banned because you can do so many cheap infinites with him!

If those infinites were banned then I think MK is okay.... I guess.

 

[Prawn]

I think yes MK should be banned because you can do so many cheap infinites with him!

If those infinites were banned then I think MK is okay.... I guess.

lolwut

10verywrongs

 

[SkylerOcon]

Brawl has infinites?

 

[brinboy789]

Brawl has infinites?

yes. MK doesnt have any infinites though

 

[Falconv1.0]

I think yes MK should be banned because you can do so many cheap infinites with him!

If those infinites were banned then I think MK is okay.... I guess.

You should like, think before you post.

Just an idea.

 

[Lovely]

yes. MK doesnt have any infinites though

I think he was being sarcastic since Marth can infinite Mario, and King Dedede can use his infinite chain grab on Mario as well.

Edited: That or he meet to say, "does Meta Knight have infinites."

 

[cutter]

The infinites most people take about wanting banned (D3 infinites, ICs infinites, grab release infinites) don't even need to be banned in the first place.

 

[Nic64]

meta knight has an infinite on captain falcon. he always wins. it's infinite.

 

[RDK]

The infinites most people take about wanting banned (D3 infinites, ICs infinites, grab release infinites) don't even need to be banned in the first place.

It's no use. The zombie horde doesn't listen to reason.

 

[Master Raven]

i like ad hominens

 

[Tarmogoyf]

I think he was being sarcastic since Marth can infinite Mario,

Since when can Marth infinite Mario?

 

[salaboB]

But what are the opinions based off of and why are they valid? That is the big determining factor. If it wasn't, then popularity would rule the day. To say that opinion should be the deciding factor is like saying there is no truth to the matter, in which case what is the point of arguing who is right? What may be true for me might not be true for you, etc. This is the basis of a relativist argument, and when dealing with absolutes, such as a ban, they hold no meaning. Its like having a popularity contest to see if we should go to war. If people are of the opinion that we should simply because they feel like it, it doesn't mean that their opinion is correct, even if they feel that they are. I am not accusing you of not thinking things through, seeing as you do have your reasons for wanting a ban and have stated them plainly, but you have yet to say why it is warranted. Because that is what people want? Because it isn't fair? Why do these things matter in the competitive gaming environment? The logic has to follow, otherwise the opinion is based off of a fallacy. That is why I approached you with the questions that I did at the start of our conversation.

My assumption is that a competitive gaming environment is similar to other competitive environments, and a majority of (at least the major ones) competitive environments that I'm aware of start opponents off on even ground (Or as close to even as the format allows).

I was never a part of that discussion, but I'm tempted to look it up and have a go at it for some history. IDK because I wasn't there, but the way you are wording it would lead me to believe that a lot of it had to do with the criteria itself being based around Metaknight rather than underlying truths. If this was the case, personal agenda was bound to cause issues with the criteria and nothing would have come of the discussions. Was this the case?

Don't know. Nothing came of the discussions, at the least.

I'm very thankful for your time and efforts. I don't mind holding discussions as long as something can come of them. I apologize if I am coming off as pushy or rude, but I really just want to get to the heart of the issue. That's all.

As I said, if you had seemed pushy or rude I would have ignored you. Is my writing style actually this hard to interpret? I may have to try to start writing differently, as what I'm trying to say seems to keep getting slightly misinterpreted when it gets echoed back at me.

You evaded my question as to why it doesn't apply. I don't want to miss-quote, but if I am not mistaken the basic premise is one option making all other options non-viable. There are more intricacies to be sure, and I don't have the book directly in front of me to confirm, but that seems to be the basic premise. I have yet to see this criteria to be debunked. If it is, I will be happy to change my stance. Also, if it isn't debunked, then saying that it doesn't apply or that it doesn't need to be used is nothing more than willful ignorance. If you don't agree with it, you have to say why.

It doesn't apply because nobody official has applied it, and nobody has laid out "When MK crosses this line he will be bannable based on this." It's not that it can't apply, it's that nobody is applying it. I've also said why I disagree with it being the only option - I'm more of the opinion a ban is acceptable to level the playing field. Of course, a character overcentralizing the metagame is also very likely to be creating an uneven competitive environment as well, so the Sirlin ban meshes fine with mine, I'm just more open to banning earlier than it is.

I am in total agreement that the BR should take an official stance on ban criteria. Its one of the reasons I supported Eyada's efforts. If nothing comes out of this other than a repeat of the last decision (I was here for that part at least, and it makes no sense at all to say that the recommendation is to not ban, but to ban if you want to) then I will simply stop paying attention to anything that comes out of there and these types of threads. I have never been a fan of taking the easy way out, and to do so twice in a row shows lack of leadership ability.

I don't believe the BR intends to be a governing board, so much as one that is for the gathering of some of the more knowledgable members of the community with recommendations for how to have the best gameplay based on that knowledge. They also don't have much evidence on what happens if you ban MK, so recommending not to but saying you can if you want would not only state their preference, but leave the way open for them to gather more information on what does happen if MK is banned (If anyone took them up on that, I don't think many TOs did)

 

[bobson]

Marth can infinite Mario

What what what?

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

What was that word young man??? (echos)

 

[napZzz]

Am I one of the few people who doesn't want him banned so much for being broken, but banned because he's so overplayed? Tourneys and competitive play are no fun when half the time you beat someone they switch to mk....if they aren't already using him -_-

 

[Kinzer]

MK does have an infinite.

It's called Infinite Dimensional Cape.

 

[Red Arremer]

What what what?

Yea, I agree. What?

MK does have an infinite.

It's called Infinite Dimensional Cape.

Which is a glitch that has been officially banned. Banning a character because he has a banned technique is not a viable reason. Next please.

 

[Kinzer]

I'm just saying he has an infinite where someone/ people claimed he didn't, don't worry I'm on your side of not banning him (or rather I'm still on the fence but I'm leaning more towards keeping him around).

 

[Red Arremer]

I guess these people misinterpreted that posting to Meta Knight having an infinite on one or more certain characters, which "Infinite" normally means.

The Infinite Dimensional Cape, despite its name, is only abusing the cape's glitch to stay invisible for the whole match.

 

[thrillagorilla]

My assumption is that a competitive gaming environment is similar to other competitive environments, and a majority of (at least the major ones) competitive environments that I'm aware of start opponents off on even ground (Or as close to even as the format allows).

My response will depend on your definition of even ground. Both sides start with zero percent damage, both players will (hopefully) have operational controllers. Both players have the full range of a and b button moves, as well as jumps, ducking, running and grabbing. I don't understand what you mean by even ground or how it relates to the game, or any other game. Maybe if you give some examples and relate it back to Metaknight (or perhaps Brawl in general) I might understand where you are coming from. But for all intents and purposes, both players do start on even ground.

Don't know. Nothing came of the discussions, at the least.

I should think not. This thread wouldn't exist otherwise, no?

As I said, if you had seemed pushy or rude I would have ignored you. Is my writing style actually this hard to interpret? I may have to try to start writing differently, as what I'm trying to say seems to keep getting slightly misinterpreted when it gets echoed back at me.

Miss-communication is the bane of internet boards. I'm having trouble seeing some of your points personally, so maybe if you were to try to go a bit more in depth I could understand better. Its a pain in the rear end to type a whole bunch, but it saves a lot of time and effort later on. At the very least, if you don't want to have to write it over and over again, you can make one concise post and re-post it until it gets debunked or accepted. That's what I did.

It doesn't apply because nobody official has applied it, and nobody has laid out "When MK crosses this line he will be bannable based on this." It's not that it can't apply, it's that nobody is applying it. I've also said why I disagree with it being the only option - I'm more of the opinion a ban is acceptable to level the playing field. Of course, a character overcentralizing the metagame is also very likely to be creating an uneven competitive environment as well, so the Sirlin ban meshes fine with mine, I'm just more open to banning earlier than it is.

Again, the logic has to follow. Why is a more even playing field the goal? Why does it matter? What is your opinion based on? Until I know what it is, I can't discuss anything else with you. I know your opinion has to be based on something, otherwise you wouldn't be able to type anything other than simple pantomime, such as the ever appearing (and still pointless) "OMFG Metaknight is broken so he should be banned!!!".

I don't believe the BR intends to be a governing board, so much as one that is for the gathering of some of the more knowledgable members of the community with recommendations for how to have the best gameplay based on that knowledge. They also don't have much evidence on what happens if you ban MK, so recommending not to but saying you can if you want would not only state their preference, but leave the way open for them to gather more information on what does happen if MK is banned (If anyone took them up on that, I don't think many TOs did)

I know there have been Metaknight-less tourneys out there. If their true goal was to collect more data, why haven't they? If they have, why haven't they released it? Until that happens, there is no other way to interpret the decision other than a cop-out. If their goal is to collect data and come up with the best possible competitive environment, then I can't help but think they are failing. If they are to be a governing body, they are still failing. Forgive me for being a bit outspoken on this point, especially since it is dwindling close to being off topic (and rude, seeing as I don't know most of the Broomers personally).

Just to re-iterate, I need to know why evenness and fairness are important to the competitive environment. If there is no valid logical reason for an opinion, then there is no true opinion. Its just nonsense based on whatever a person was feeling at the time.

 

[Kinzer]

I love being a smart-@$$.

Also I might be leaning towards keeping MK around because in some strange way he balances the game.

I know that MK is no easy MU, but for some characters they would much rather fight him than say somebody like D3 or any other top/high-tier character that ruins them.

Anybody here play Donkey Bong? Anybody?

But yeah, I guess what I am saying is MK doesn't make any character unviable except the ones who are already I believe, except maybe Marth, who really would prosper moar if MK was gone seeing as how he is his only counter I believe.

 

[Red Arremer]

Also I might be leaning towards keeping MK around because in some strange way he balances the game.

Indeed he does.

I know that MK is no easy MU, but for some characters they would much rather fight him than say somebody like D3 or any other top/high-tier character that ruins them.

This is also true.

But yeah, I guess what I am saying is MK doesn't make any character unviable except the ones who are already I believe, except maybe Marth, who really would prosper moar if MK was gone seeing as how he is his only counter I believe.

Yes, he wrecks Marth who, in the end, would be in the exact same situation Meta Knight is if he is banned.
Everyone is okay with Dedede needing to counterpick against Falco or being in any other counterpick situation, but if someone needs to counterpick against Meta Knight, it's making them unviable. lulz.

 

[Nic64]

I'm against banning MK and all but..marth would not be in the same situation as he is if MK were banned, this has been discussed multiple times, marth has numerous disadvantaged and even matchups, MK may have like 3-4 even matchups and even who those characters are depends on who you ask.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

What what what?

I'd assume that is is similar to the mario infinite on mk

BuenaRacha (12:40:57 AM): mario infinites mk

j219onTHErun (12:41:02 AM): ?
j219onTHErun (12:41:05 AM): how?

BuenaRacha (12:41:22 AM): by never winning
BuenaRacha (12:41:25 AM): it's an infinite
BuenaRacha (12:41:43 AM): discovered by mexico

except the infinite would include marth winning and mario not winning

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm against banning MK and all but..marth would not be in the same situation as he is if MK were banned, this has been discussed multiple times, marth has numerous disadvantaged and even matchups, MK may have like 3-4 even matchups and even who those characters are depends on who you ask.

Marth has arguably 2 disadvantageous matchups other than Meta Knight, and those are no hard counters.
He also outright destroys more characters than Meta Knight does.

So... it's really extremely similar to SF3 Third Strike - with Meta Knight being Yun and Marth being Chun-Li.

 

[B!squick]

Marth has arguably 2 disadvantageous matchups other than Meta Knight, and those are no hard counters.
He also outright destroys more characters than Meta Knight does.

So... it's really extremely similar to SF3 Third Strike - with Meta Knight being Yun and Marth being Chun-Li.

You sure about this?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226315

I see MK having even better "**** your face" match ups than Marth. >.>

Also, the ranking shows that MK dominates more than Marth though only by a little.

 

[Red Arremer]

You sure about this?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226315

I see MK having even better "**** your face" match ups than Marth. >.>

Also, the ranking shows that MK dominates more than Marth though only by a little.

That chart is stuffed with outdated information.

And I was talking about High to Mid Tier - y'know, characters that are viable or partly viable for tournament play. Meta Knight only has 3 characters he really gives trouble in this line, which are Marth, R.O.B., and Peach, and the latter two have other hard counters, anyway, so the only actually viable character Meta Knight is hard countering is Marth.

 

[Nic64]

Marth has arguably 2 disadvantageous matchups other than Meta Knight, and those are no hard counters.
He also outright destroys more characters than Meta Knight does.

So... it's really extremely similar to SF3 Third Strike - with Meta Knight being Yun and Marth being Chun-Li.

I don't really see how those are arguable, people who main any of those 3 characters will agree...

and marth's advantages are largely 6:4's, I think snake, falco, game and watch, DDD, and olimar are all better examples of characters that **** most of the cast but also have a few disadvantages.

 

[Curaga]

Contrary to whatever that other guy was saying about having an opinion about something is bad;

I still think Marth is better than MK. Just maybe not against MK; as is this community's discovery.

In response to Nic64 above me as well, Snake and Olimar are interestingly powerful in themselves, and from what I've seen its through projectile and range advantages.

Initially I was having a lot of difficulty versus MK because I haven't really ever fought anything like him in Melee. Closest thing I could think of is Purin's wall of pain, aerial rests, and wave dash rests.... obviously still vastly different.

Marth is just .. so Street Fighter Ken to me. Very simple, generic, familiar; and still tough.

 

[Kinzer]

No, that can't be right.

For one, Marth's attack with the exception of DTilt (and maybe some aerials I don't play the character) are safe on block, and I've been hearing recently about how people are explotiong Marth's recovery... when was the last you heard of MK getting gimped?

Marth is balanced, whereas MK just pwns.

 

[Red Arremer]

I don't really see how those are arguable, people who main any of those 3 characters will agree...

Ya mean Marth, Snake and Dedede?

and marth's advantages are largely 6:4's, I think snake, falco, game and watch, DDD, and olimar are all better examples of characters that **** most of the cast but also have a few disadvantages.

True. But Marth is still ****** some lotsa characters... Olimar, Peach, Kirby I think... that's already 3 characters Marth pretty much has a big advantage on.

 

[Nic64]

For one, Marth's attack with the exception of DTilt (and maybe some aerials I don't play the character) are safe on block

A) I assume you meant aren't

B) neither are MK's. both characters have amazing dtilts and most other ground moves are going to leave them open if they miss. the safeness of aerial attacks depends a lot on your opponent, but marth has better reach and mobility in the air than MK.

Ya mean Marth, Snake and Dedede?

yep. I've seen Marth's say their matchup with Snake is really close, but never even, and otherwise I don't think I've seen anything that comes close to disputing DDD and Snake being disadvantaged matchups for Marth.

 

[Curaga]

I agree, his recovery is still his short coming, but the difference between MK and Marth is that it takes less to K.O. MK than it does for Marth. So its not really about gimping MK as much as it is about gaurding the edge and getting as much damage/kill in before he inevitably gets back on the stage.

But starting from 0% with both competetors on the stage, I think its frighteningly obvious that Marth has many great options for defense and offense.

Clearly I'm opinionated and I'm not really throwing out facts, but thats just natural bias for being a Melee era player.

 

[Kinzer]

I was taking it from the blocker's perspective, so that means Marth get's (or should be getting) punished if he hits the opponent's shield.

Marth has his Dolphin Slash, which if forseen will heavily punish him, whereas MK has his DSmash which isn't as bad as Marth whiffing a DS. These are (probably) their GTFO moves (and I think DSmash is just one of MK's "GTFO of me! D:" moves, what else does Marth have?) MK is better off than Marth is concerning lag (even more specific ending lag). MK also has pretty decent range on his aerials too, not to mention he is just as lagless if not less than Marth is (just try comparing something like their Dairs, you would have to be a fool to not see the difference). The difference in the air is just you won't ever see MK approaching from there, but from a defensive perspective (which was what I was talking about), they're probably equal or MK having that edge with his range and speed.

Marth can retreat aerials pretty handily though I'll give him that, and I don't know about other characters but I love how Sonic can punish Marth's Fair with a DA if they're quick enough. MK just has his multiple jumps to try and retreat because as you and I both acknowledge his air speed/acceleration is bad no doubt, but that's usually enough sicne he can keep spamming Dairs.

 

[Red Arremer]

(just try comparing something like their Dairs, you would have to be a fool to not see the difference)

If you use Marth's worst aerial move (Down Air), please use Meta Knight's worst aerial move (IIRC Neutral Air) as comparison material, not one of his best moves.

 

[Curaga]

If you use Marth's worst aerial move (Down Air), please use Meta Knight's worst aerial move (IIRC Neutral Air) as comparison material, not one of his best moves.

This brings up an almost embarassing question.

How hard does MK's downair spike?

I know Marth's spiking ability with his Dair is pretty decent, I've been victim to it a lot as Fox.

I just don't recall MK ever really spiking me to K.O, gimping me a little sometimes sure.

 

[Nic64]

marth isn't going to just toss out his dolphin slash at random every time he's getting attacked, I think you're really grasping at straws there to try and prove that he's less safe...both characters are unusually safe, I think MK is the better character because he has better recovery and more easily useable kill moves, as well as being much more consistent(when you have a bad game playing marth you feel it a lot worse than MK because he requires a much sharper focus).

also MK's lightness isn't that bad compared to marth when you consider how amazing his momentum canceling is.

EDIT: MK's dair can't spike you, it can stage spike you in certain situations though and it is a great gimping attack.

 

[Red Arremer]

Meta Knight's Down Air doesn't spike at all. None of Meta Knight's aerials spike, to be exact. Of course it does knockback, but it's not really worth a mention unless you have a character who has insane trouble recovering vertically (i.e. Peach).

 

[Kinzer]

MK's Dair does not auto-spike.

Also Spade I can't sugoarcoat it, that was a pathetic counter argument.

You know that even if Nair is MK's worst aerial, it's still stupid fast and deals very nice damage?! (somewhere between 2-5 frames and for damage... well I can't recall, but yeah). Makes for a nice OoS aerial, indeed.

Also I said "like", meaning you're free to look into things like their Uairs, and not just direct comparisons either.

Direct comparison - Uairs - MK's is clearly better, only thing Marth has over it is killing power when tippered.

Indirect comparison, how about the usefulness of their F/Bairs? Marth's is just a one (hit)-trick pony, whereas MK has 3 hits to back up his (he's also lagless on both, but MK's Bair covers less, but Marth's has more lag).

Edit: Nic, if I am pulling otu straws then tell me this:

What Does Marth have when his shield is getting pressured that isn't Dolphin Slash? Nothing is as fast or as hardhitting as that (don't suggest Jab lol).