Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[soap]

no explosion stall is not fully invincible, at least I could never get it to be in the acid

 

[joejoe22802]

KK should really tech bairs/fsmashes from Mango more...He took so many fsmashes that either killed him or put him offstage in a bad position that he could have just teched for a free ledge grab.

When recovering as Sheik you really have no excuse... its extremely easy to do

teching dairs is in 99% of cases just a shield input turned tech and holding down from habit I find.

You can't tech f smash if its spaced correctly. I'm assuming the same with bair. I agree though, should be used more.

 

[leffen]

They can reverse the fsmash, but then it doesn't kill anyway, otherwise, you can tech it up to 140% really easily (anywhere on stage)
Bair is techable to around 175% anywhere on stage
Nair 190% ish

Dair is best just normally edgecanceled since it doesn't send you far and you can often punish ppl with a fair/bair (please don't get dair->dair combo'd anymore ppl... esp on platforms... it should neevvveerrr happen)

 

[Kaffei]

They can reverse the fsmash, but then it doesn't kill anyway, otherwise, you can tech it up to 140% really easily (anywhere on stage)
Bair is techable to around 175% anywhere on stage
Nair 190% ish

Dair is best just normally edgecanceled since it doesn't send you far and you can often punish ppl with a fair/bair (please don't get dair->dair combo'd anymore ppl... esp on platforms... it should neevvveerrr happen)

Leffen, how exactly do you tech an fsmash/other grounded moves? like how do you tech a sheik dash attack and stuff

 

[leffen]

basically just hold down away on control stick (not down towards like some do, that only works vs falcos dsmash) and hold straight down with the Cstick and press L/R

its EXTREMELY easy, just try it out.

 

[joejoe22802]

I believe there are spacings inbetween the reverse and the tip that sends you at higher trajectories. But you could be right. And people definitely can delay their combos to mess up these techs.

 

[leffen]

That hitbox doesn't kill either

also you have a whopping 20 frame window to tech, so you'll probably be out of stun if they delay it.

Dair doesn't even need to be teched and the others ones don't either except when they kill

 

[stelzig]

Reverse dashattack? You mean dashattacking away from people and hit them?

I originally did use the non-poof stall a little, but started copying others because I realised they did that for a reason. I could certainly put that back into my game if it is actually good.

I'd certainly be interested in learning all of those things (sadly I can't access my game to test how well I can do them right now. Must wait till terebi), except the needle turnaround which I just rarely ever feel like I really needed. Really low priority IMO. Might be worth trying in friendlies and during training sessions because why not, but there's alot of other things i'd rather learn first


Btw, I thought teching actually had a 40(!) frame window, while l-cancelling is "only" 20.

Edit: On a sidenote, I once teched doc's Fair after recovering onto the stage. Sadly I have not been able to do this more than once, even though i've tried (How hard is this one compared to some of the things you think we should tech?)

 

[Strong Badam]

Teching is 20. L-canceling is 6.

Doc's fair is very difficult to tech, and that's actually difficult to believe lol.

 

[stelzig]

Hahaha. Well I swear it happened. But it is good to hear that it is difficult, then there's still hope in trying to tech the other things

Guess I was wrong on the teching and l-cancelling frames

 

[knightpraetor]

a little confused about using DI away and down plus C stick down..

the issue is that ASDI takes place after hitstun before flying i assumed. I am not sure but i thought you could ASDI and just tech. THough honestly that sounds a little strange to me, because if it were that simple, then everyone should be able to do it almost all the time. Do you start moving before ASDI takes place? cause then it would make sense.

also the DI down and away doesn't make sense to me. if the ASDI has already taken place, then you should have started flying. even with DI down and away the resultant trajectory of the attack should not be a downwards angle with any normal launcher (falco's fsmash/dsmash).

thus if you were able to tech it would have been after the ASDI down from the cstick, so there would be no need to DI away and down and you could just DI in and up in case you missed the tech.

anyway someone who understands the physics better please correct me here

 

[mers]

As far as I understand it (admittedly not perfectly):

ASDI happens on the first frame after hitlag, which is also the first frame you start moving. Thus, your movement for this one frame is a combination of your ASDI and your knockback. That explains why you can ASDI down and tech (or not tech) vertical launchers like Fox's usmash at lower percentages but not higher ones. At high percentages the knockback is significantly more than the ASDI can compensate for.

So this would naturally also apply to non-vertical launchers in the same way. Falco's fsmash sends you diagonally up, and so you can tech it via ASDI down until the upward movement is too much.

The point of DIing down and away is not that it makes your trajectory a downward one, but simply that it reduces your upward movement enough to allow ASDI down to work until higher percentages. Down and away DI is the DI that most lowers your vertical knockback from diagonal launchers like Falco's fsmash and bair.

NOTE: this means that you can get away with less than perfect (or even just wrong DI) and still tech as long as you ASDI down until lower percentages. As your percentage rises, your DI must be more and more perfect for the specific move that you are attempting to tech.

Also, that magic trick where you snap to the ledge after being hit by very high knockback moves (there's some cool video somewhere of it happening with Ganon's utilt) involves the same trick. You DI/ASDI so that you become grounded, but you miss the tech. Because of the knockback, your character slides very quickly along the ground and off the stage (edgecanceling in the process and so leaving hitstun). Normally, this would still kill you, but if you fastfall on the very first frame that you leave the stage, your character is out of hitstun, within ledgegrab range, and moving downward, which are the three requirements for grabbing the ledge.

 

[Strong Badam]

on the subject of ASDI down for survival and such: note that even if you don't tech, getting a successful floorbounce (green spark-ish GFX) via "fake CC" (ASDI down + assisting trajectory DI) will decrease the KB, which obviously means you get sent a shorter distance = live longer. try kneeing a jigglypuff that's actually on the ground and holding down at a % then knee that same jigglypuff standing up (but not crouching) and not holding anything for demonstration.

mers: to clarify on the "out of hitstun" requirement in the last sentence, the hitstun needs to be aerial hitstun. ground -> air hitstun (e.g. Fox's shine and you get sent off) still allows you to grab the ledge as well as fastfall.

alternative gif by sveet because he wasn't happy with that one

 

[mers]

Strong Bad I thought that was because when you slid off the edge, you edgecanceled and so were entirely out of hitstun. Like you know that evil thing that happens where you get hit and slide off a platform and burn your jump because of your DI input? Just like that.

Basically, I'm asking if the Ganon/Marth in those GIFs could have jumped once they slid off.

 

[unknown522]

No they can't. They get put in tumble animation when they slide off

Edit @ stelzig: reverse dash attack meaning you overshoot it so that the hit reverses. So that If the opponent DIs away as usual, it will send them straight up instead

 

[Strong Badam]

They're still in hitstun when they slide off, a special type of hitstun where Fastfall, Ledgegrab, and Aerial Momentum Control (dumb people call this "DI" when it's not) are all possible. The "edge-hitstun cancel" you're describing is something else entirely... which only happens on tumble hitstun, so not relevant against shine-comboable characters.

 

[unknown522]

Oh. Yeah I know what you mean but I didn't know that it was a special thing. The same thing happens when you WD off the edge of either the platform or the stage, but then you put your shield up before falling off.

I'm glad to know that there's an actual name for it

 

[ShroudedOne]

What is Aerial Momentum Control?

 

[unknown522]

You can control yourself in the air after being in certain kinds of stun. Like when you get hit an bounce off a wall by some moves.

There are more examples as well, but can't think of them.

Strongbad could probably fill you in more about that

 

[john!]

i thought that hitting a wall like that let you move normally in the air (at the same speed as you would if you were jumping and landing)

i've seen it happen with puff after hitting the tree on stadium. the midair movement is very noticeable

 

[mers]

They're still in hitstun when they slide off, a special type of hitstun where Fastfall, Ledgegrab, and Aerial Momentum Control (dumb people call this "DI" when it's not) are all possible. The "edge-hitstun cancel" you're describing is something else entirely... which only happens on tumble hitstun, so not relevant against shine-comboable characters.

Awesome thanks.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

is there a long matchup post about sheik vs samus that someone could quote for me? lol

 

[Van.]

I don't think there is, but the basic useful thing you have to know, but probably already do are:

You can wd grab her dsmash if you shield it

if you AC fair and then shield and she cc dsmashes you can shield it and then immediately grab.

needles off stage are integral

less important

when recovering, if she is using dsmash to put you back off, crouch the first hit so she'll send you to the middle of the stage. Like one would do bs. peach except you can get it everytime.

 

[S l o X]

Gonna post a video of that set when it is uploaded. I really want to get good at the matchup and in general with Sheik. I don't think any of my teams set was recorded but if so I'll do that too.

 

[Strong Badam]

What is Aerial Momentum Control?

jump

now, hold right, or hold left.

your character moves

magic

wallbounce control is different & exaggerated

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well don't use such big, fancy terms for simple things like that, lol. Now I feel silly.

 

[S l o X]

Gonna post a video of that set when it is uploaded. I really want to get good at the matchup and in general with Sheik. I don't think any of my teams set was recorded but if so I'll do that too.

http://youtu.be/lPwBSqXJ2jk

Forced myself into playing Sheik games two and three because of controller problems. (Everytime I try to reverse needle to ledge I just needle and then am still facing towards the ledge so I just d-smash or get up-b'd)

Aside from that, what exactly am I doing wrong? I see a few tech chasing things that I could have done better but I don't really understand the neutral.

 

[KirbyKaze]

jump

now, hold right, or hold left.

your character moves

magic

wallbounce control is different & exaggerated

I call it drift but sure.

Reverse dashattack? You mean dashattacking away from people and hit them?

God I hate the smash community's ambiguous language. No. He's referring to dash attacking really deep during a combo or whatever and getting the back of the hitbox, so the trajectory reverses and you can punish people for DIing away (from a conventional, non-reversed dash attack).

If you watch Drephen's combo video there's a bunch of examples of it. It's also a good way to set up tipped up smashes.

http://youtu.be/lPwBSqXJ2jk

Forced myself into playing Sheik games two and three because of controller problems. (Everytime I try to reverse needle to ledge I just needle and then am still facing towards the ledge so I just d-smash or get up-b'd)

Aside from that, what exactly am I doing wrong? I see a few tech chasing things that I could have done better but I don't really understand the neutral.

Typical Falcon in neutral is basically trying to constantly coax you into bad footing (or he's trying to get you to do a punishable move so he can grab you - he's either gonna do this by throwing moves around to bait or by dash dancing). Just... don't take the bait. I find this is one of the few MUs (against playable characters) where I do better by just kind of walking around and doing my own thing (no, I don't literally mean walking [although it's sometimes really good but I can't really explain where] but the idea is that you make Falcon play into your bullcrap rather than vice versa). Like, I notice you keep jumping up to the platforms a lot and trying to then play footsie on the platform. But you don't need to do this and it's incredibly dangerous to do so anyway. You're better off just intercepting him coming off the platform with bair or evade-punishing him (or so forth and so on). Sheik doesn't like being on platforms or high in the air vs characters who are significantly faster than her. She likes the ground. Don't neglect your crouch either - you can pull a Puff and duck to avoid being hit or grabbed in a lot of situations that come up. Fair > crouch is really good shield pressure because his OOS options are all slow and lose to some kind of tilt or aerial (and you just have to pop out of the crouch and hit him). And if he tries to shield grab it you get a free grab (which can kill him because Sheik is good).

Now, with all the above said, if your ambition is to chase him down no matter where he goes then more power to you. I'm sure there's a way to make that style of play provide good returns. But understand you're giving him chances to get under you and then his uair goes from "okay move" directly to "oh my god, godlike move" with nothing in between. I think I actually got death comboed by S2J at Rule 6 for not following this rule.

Regarding Falcon's non-tech stuff... if they do the non-tech thing at like 28% then you have a bunch of options. I typically just call it and up smash. But more sensible players should just stand there and wait because if the Falcon sucks (most Falcons do) then they'll be inputting the ASDI up long after they need to, which forces them to stand (which you can grab or whatever). You can also borrow some of Tafokints's jab mixups but I'm sort of attached to my up smash (though it's far from optimal IMO). I think his post on jab and stuff to follow jab with is floating around here somewhere. You might have to search. You could also consult any M2K Sheik video vs a Falcon (I recommend something of M2K vs Hax's prime since Hax was godlike at that MU for a very long time) for ideas on what to do if they counter the jab reset - M2K has a million tricks for that specific situation lol.

If Falcon doesn't DI away from your d-throw you can combo him with tilts, jabs, and d-smash. And regrab at some point. It simplifies the tech chase game by funneling his options. Might be useful to learn if you're having issues tech chasing him.

Speaking of tech chasing... you really shouldn't bother predicting Falcon's tech options much if ever (assuming he techs). He doesn't have a shine, his jump is slower than Fox's, and his sidestep is so long that if you miss a grab on it you can actually be at frame advantage sometimes. Just... do simple things. Falcon MU is annoying because it's incredibly not-worthwhile to do cool combos. The more you stick to basic tilt, uair, and dash attack into eventual fair suite (into simple edgeguard) the better you will do (the amount of effort that goes into swagging on Falcon is pointless when you figure how stupid her tech chase & basic launchers are on him).

You mess up a lot of the same stuff I used to when a combo or whatever gets converted into a tech chase. Rather than DDing and basically forfeiting your punish if they roll away (unless you have really good reaction time), consider walking (or WDing to their landing spot) and grabbing / tilting / d-smashing. Running up to them and crouching is also fairly good (it's even better if you're below like 90%). Another strategy for this sort of thing I shamelessly ripped from M2K is to SH at their landing spot and fair the non-tech or tech stand, and bair if they roll through you (loses to roll away, but not at the edge! Also, get up attacks can be weird so try to bait them if possible and get a dair or something so you can do some ridiculous combo you're not legitimately entitled to). These kinds of strategies don't give as great a reward as DD dash attack (dash attack is always good to hit unless they're below the knockdown percent) but hitting the tilt or grab (especially the grab) should give you enough control to keep your punish going. And the aerials are really good near the edge (and dair is monstrous if you can hit it in general).

I suck at gimping Falcon (I know, ultimate shame) but I do have some basic advice. If you grab the edge and he's coming up, just ledgehop nair (or bair if he pulls away or something) and then follow until he's dead. I recommend going for multiple aerials offstage whenever appropriate because if you hit a slap > slap it's basically a death sentence for him (unless he's below like 20, but how was he offstage then?). Just be prepared to abort mission and grab the edge and convert it into a basic Sheik edgeguard if he DIs away from your aerial (particularly weak aerials) and tries to goad you into following him into hell (or similar shenanigans).

Don't try to shield grab the gentleman unless you're at like 15% (or less) and can just crouch the 3rd hit into a grab or whatever. Gentleman is really good. You should probably respect it and action after the 3rd hit (unless they start doing janky mixups off it). I'm not sure if you can shield grab after the 3rd hit. I think I read that you can if you're super perfect, but if you're not that confident then WD OOS and such are perfectly acceptable.

I think you can just hit him with ground needles if he's Up+Bing (even if he's trying to sweetspot). I've seen M2K do it a bazillion times so I figure it's likely legit. I usually just try to set up a bunch of aerials offstage but... yeah. Just don't down smash at his sweetspot attempt if he's over like 50% or something because I swear he can tech > Up+B through our legs if he does it right. And if I'm wrong, then awesome - Sheik is too good. But yeah... needles and aerials (don't neglect weak bair) will suffice vs his low recoveries and vs high recoveries just figure out how to bair or fair him. Or let him land an do a really elaborate death combo with dairs and stuff off his landing lag.

Not sure why this stood out but it did. After that first bair, you could have killed him with run off fair or f-tilted into something (if he DIs away I think you can combo needles sometimes... I just eyeball it - I think it would have worked there). I think you could have d-smashed too but I'm not 100% on that one (and I prefer f-tilt > fair on Falcon anyway because he's fat). Anyway, the second bair didn't work because it hits too high and I think he might have FFed for the edge. Not sure though. But yeah. Now you know.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Not sure why this stood out but it did. After that first bair, you could have killed him with run off fair or f-tilted into something (if he DIs away I think you can combo needles sometimes... I just eyeball it - I think it would have worked there). I think you could have d-smashed too but I'm not 100% on that one (and I prefer f-tilt > fair on Falcon anyway because he's fat). Anyway, the second bair didn't work because it hits too high and I think he might have FFed for the edge. Not sure though. But yeah. Now you know.

That whole edgeguard is a good example of different options that would have been preferable. Starting at 4:27 after the first d-smash you empty hopped and I believe needles would have hit and made him up b although I may be wrong. After which a rising nair or roll would have killed him.

Since that didn't happen, once he grabbed the ledge his ledgehopped U-air missed you barely. It shouldn't have and you got the better end of it when he rolled to the edge. Most falcons will come up with rising u-air or nair there and it is much more consistent to just dash away and dash back in to grab it. D-smash is also an option but most times they can get their shield up.

After the d-smash KK is referring too, run off rising fair would have worked but is more risky. The most guaranteed option is getting to the ledge quicker and jumping off for the bair much sooner than you did and hitting him with the tip further out. Or simply grabbing the edge, tapping on and turn around f-tilt fair as KK said.

A big part of the Falcon matchup that has been the most useful is simply doing what is guaranteed, as you said KK. There is no need to get fancy with the techchases or the edgeguards. It is a matchup where you can stick to what works best and falcon really has no way around it.

I also 100% agree with making Falcon work around your BS.

 

[KirbyKaze]

is there a long matchup post about sheik vs samus that someone could quote for me? lol

All you want to do is grab her and get her in the air because Samus is terrible in the air and even more vs Sheik. But she's gonna be trying to avoid this so you're gonna have to do bitchwork with spaced aerials and stuff to coax her into shielding and other grabbable things. Beware of WD back OOS and sidestep.

If you're attacking her shield with SH aerials, space to avoid up+B and be ready for WD back shenanigans.

Tilting and jabbing grounded Samus is a big no-no.

Shield is good - jumping out of shield vs her grab attempts (some reaction / prediction required) will net you free grabs and therefore free followups. Shield opens up grab opportunities if used correctly; running into her space and shielding is pretty good if they like to do moves that aren't grab or up tilt - if her f-tilt isn't spaced you can shield grab it, and her smashes can be punished by WD OOS. I think you can just nair or shield grab her jab if it isn't spaced but I'm not sure.

Shoot the bombs when she's recovering. Ledgehop bair & generic invulnerability abuse is really good against her grapple & up+B.

She's probably gonna edgeguard you with d-smash or f-smash. Standard survival DI works vs f-smash. On d-smash I think you can DI a bit higher up or so.

 

[S l o X]

I am so happy I posted that here now. Gonna read that all and potentially add you on AIM to talk more about the game / Sheik progression.

Thanks KK!

That empty hop was actually supposed to be needles but yea, controller problems. I literally could not needle left (or laser) the entire day for some reason. Buying a new controller soon actually since mines broke like two tournaments ago. I am going to try to get a lot of Sheik recorded because my reaction time is really good and I love 0 to deathing people with d-throw tech chases. (not displayed in video)

Thanks a lot for the tips, especially regarding the neutral game. I will take that to mind the next time I play that matchup.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You guys get so many handouts from me

But I like writing them so s'all good

 

[stelzig]

Thanks for explaining the reverse dashattack, though I also saw it when unknown explained it (thanks to you too )

I thought it was sorta common to do that though.

Edit: With all the advice you're giving out right now, I may have to get some matches recorded myself this weekend :D

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm in a sharing mood lately.

 

[Strong Badam]

Caring is sharing.

 

[silentSWAG]

yo david, tell me what you think

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGdRrZt7ICQ&feature=plcp

 

[KirbyKaze]

Vs Peach

For combo stuff... I think you could use more up air in certain spots - you're not really comboing into it or holding her in juggles as effectively as you could be. There was an f-tilt in the first game where you put him really high up and comboed fair but I think you could have killed with uair instead. Recognizing those kinds of kills will save you the need to edgeguard and makes you way more dangerous.

I think you need to work on transitioning from uairs into the bair traps to stalk her landing. A lot of the time she drops her float and starts fading away to protect herself from bair - this is your cue to switch to dash dance grab or stalk her landing with d-tilt to keep her airborne. D-tilt is really good at sneaking under nairs and such, which makes it good for this. You're good about fairing her through things - keep doing that.

In general I think at lower percents you need to focus more on grabbing her or hitting needles. You tilt a lot in your pressure at low percents but even if you hit the tilt you'll be unsafe. I feel you also seem to face Peach a lot when she's floating at good heights for you to bair. You could actually f-tilt some of these floats (and you do that sometimes) because you'd be hitting with the end of the move (even at low percents - be prepared to shield or move away ASAP though to avoid being naired). Fade away if you bair.

You did fairly well vs his Peach though and you did a good job of punishing his combo break stuff with f-tilt > fairs and dash dance regrabs. Particularly in the first match.

Another small thing - remember that low float stuff can be beaten by spaced tilts, down smash, and other stuff. You don't always need to jump back when she comes running in with FC aerials.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGdRrZt7ICQ&feature=plcp#t=2m28s - You could have down smashed him first and pushed him to the edge. I also don't agree with the standing needle after. It lagged you up when it missed his sidestep and wouldn't have accomplished much if it hit anyway. You had a good position to pressure him. Should have held it.

Generally you want to move away from Peach when you're being tech chased by her. I'm also going to assume those f-throws and b-throws onstage were supposed to be d-throws and you improvised the follows - there's no reason to use other throws vs Peach for the most part.
Hard to say much more 'cuz you seemed fine vs Peach on the whole.


Vs Fox

Your tech chasing has so far been pretty bad in this first match. I think you've grabbed him 4 times and gotten nothing from any of them. Don't be afraid to use the max-ranged grab and stuff to protect from shines if your timings are off. If you're going to try to use M2K's tech chase method you have to get faster at it and shorten your WD lengths at certain spots because you're robbing yourself of the momentum you need.

You should have just rushed VaNz down when he was lasering at the edge. Could have closed disance with good timing advantage.

You have to space further away from Fox on the platform to protect from the SH nair off the opposite platforms that they like to do.

Crouch underneath the platform to protect from wakeup attacks if they're lying on a low FoD platform. This gives you a big advantage in the chicken game. Crouching into up tilt and such under these platforms tends to be good in general.

You're still dropping tech chases. Either boost grab on the rolls or run further.

Waveland regrab on the platform sucks with Sheik because her up smash and other moves lead to much better things on the FoD platforms. Up smash is really great to hit. Uair is also really good. Up tilt is fickle but often can link to a regrab. Your actual attacks have more value than your regrab in this MU because they launch better - for characters like Doc, they regrab on platforms because their throw leads to better follows than aerials but Sheik isn't like this vs FFers.

You keep being comboed into d-smash after stuff. You need to try and force Fox to nair or whatever in a fairly stationary way and then DI away as hard as you can from that to escape those kinds of combos. I think you might be able to set up a DJ opportunity too in some of these situations with a more vertical DI trajectory, but don't quote me on that.

You do a lot of jabs that look really bad and often kill your combo. I think these are mistakes.

Whenever VaNz lasers moving forward you should swing at him if you're a reasonable proximity. Dash attack and boost grab.

He seems to like meeting you halfway so grab earlier when you're running towards him. You'll probably snag him out of some jabs or dash attacks if you max range these.

Dreamland was a terrible CP because he was winning largely by outcamping you. FoD was a great choice but you just messed up too much.

Your precision and accuracy hitting people on platforms is really poor for the most part. Work on SHing early and delaying your aerial to hit the tech option reactively (or DJ > attack if they roll away from you, etc).

You just seem to miss too many things from grab. Consider doing easier things - a lot of times you seem to be making life hard for yourself by trying to copy M2K's WD > dash strategy out of the throw. I think you need to simplify it and find something that's more comfortable for you. Maybe this was just a really bad day but... for how many grabs you actually landed this should have been a breeze.

In general it looked okay from games one through four. Minus the constant dropping of combos and knockdowns. Game 5 was ugly because Dreamland was a really bad pick IMO - it enhanced his camping advantage and exacerbated your issues following up on him because the huge stage size forces you to keep the ball going for longer to kill him (whereas on FoD the tiny size makes it easy for short combos to put people offstage in bad positions and constricts tech options heavily). Not terrible though - just work on nailing those tech chases and figure out a motion that works for you. I just walk and turn around appropriately most of the time 'cuz I'm a minimalist but you just really need something that isn't super laggy and works for you.

 

[Van.]

KK i remember a while ago you said you should use jiggs to practice fast nair OoS and kirby to practice AC fairs, but i recently discovered that if you get alll up in dat kirby you can hit him with nair OoS. Since he's shorter should i use him for practicing nairs now, or is there a better reason to use Jiggs?

 

[KirbyKaze]

SH nair OOS, done perfectly (or near perfectly) does full damage to Puff when you're hitting with the front of it. Because of this, I use Puff (I can just check the damage to see if I did it right). Kirby requires you to be right inside him and I think you hit him with the back part of the nair. I'm not sure what the windows are like on hitting him and I'm also not sure what the damage is like on the back of her nair (in terms of strong hit, weak hit, etc) so I didn't explore this further.

I considered using Kirby as the training dummy for nair OOS checks but Puff's height seemed more convenient (you hit the nair while rising on Puff and do the full damage with hard hit [which is what you want] or you flub it and hit the weak hit during descent - there aren't many other outcomes). If you can think of a reason why Kirby works better than that's cool. I just don't have one.

 

[Van.]

The only reason I had was convenience-- you can do your daily workout for both maneuvers in one match. But your explanation works for me. It is pretty annoying to have to run so far into/behind him all the time. Puff it is