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Sheik Strategy & QnA

Discussion in 'Sheik' started by KirbyKaze, Dec 4, 2007.

  1. KirbyKaze

    KirbyKaze
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    Inspired by Cactuar/Emblem Lord/Silent Wolf/Cort/Mango/Members who decided to create Q&A threads.

    I'm just making this because there isn't one for the sheik boards and every character seems to have one nowadays. ^_^

    Basically ask common sheik questions here so repetitive threads won't be made over and over. I or hopefully other knowledgeable sheik players can answer your question whatever it is. Discussions about Sheik are also welcome.

    Here are some quick things I know are somewhat frequent questions so I'll post them here. I'll put other important things on the first page too, like match up guides, frame data, Advanced Sheik techs, etc.

    Sheik's Up-b Ledgestall/Shino Stall

    When you're on the edge of the stage press down to get off the ledge then quickly up-b. You should move a little upwards, while this is going on hold down. Once you hear the noise for her explosion let go of the control stick. Sheik should move down and grab the ledge you can repeat till whenever you feel like stopping.

    Turning into Sheik in the beginning of the game

    To turn into sheik at the beginning of the battle pick zelda and during the stage selection hold A until the game starts.

    Reverse Needle Canceling

    When you begin to your jump tap the opposite direction you are facing. Then press and hold B while you are in the charge animation press L/R to cancel your charge. You don't have to hold B once you press L/R.

    Sheik's Edge-canceled Vanish

    To perform this, you start by running toward an edge. As you are about to enter the teetering animation perform her up-b. Sheik will enter a "fake" vanish then drift off the edge due to the momentum of running. Then you can aim the "real" vanish to wherever you choose.

    Chain grabbable characters (Using D-throw)

    Sheik
    Marth (Only works if Marth DIs away from you, however you get a guaranteed re-grab if you CG at 0)
    Bowser
    Game and Watch
    Ganondorf
    Link
    Pichu
    Mewtwo (If he DI away from you)
    Ness
    Pikachu
    Roy
    Yoshi

    Frame/Percent data

    Jab/Needle Reset Percents

    General Sheik Frame Data

    Sheik's Frame data (More in depth)

    Video demonstration on Sheik's Moveset

    Tafokints's Guide to Sheik's F-smash

    Shiek's Hitbox and Frame Data

    Character Matchup Guides

    Sheik vs Fox and Falco (Drephen)

    Sheik vs Marth (Drephen)

    Sheik vs Marth (KirbyKaze)

    More of Sheik vs Marth (KirbyKaze)

    Sheik vs Fox (Vanz)

    Sheik vs Peach (Teczero)

    Sheik vs Jigglypuff (Teczero)

    Sheik vs Captian Falcon (A lot of us)

    Sheik Dittos (NeighborhoodP)

    Brickman's Matchup Guide

    Other Useful Threads

    Shortening/Reversing your Up-b

    Sheik's Wavedash vs Fox Trot

    Plairnkk's Guide to Playing Sheik

    Shield Pressure Frames

    KirbyKaze's Guide to be at least as good as Demo Kirby

    KirbyKaze's Match up thread!

    Magus's Sexy list of techs,throws and getup data

    Seanson's Hitbox System
     
  2. einthesuperdog

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    I tried making one of these two! hopefully this one will get used more.
     
  3. cablepuff

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    How ocme this thread doesn't grow like the jiggly, peach, marth board Q & A thread?
     
  4. Teczer0

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    I actually realized this after I made this thread >_<.

    And I have no idea why people just don't like the sheik one *shrugs*.

    Maybe because I'm not a great player?? Like Cort/Cactuar ?

    Who knows
     
  5. darkchrono_09

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    Im really having trouble with the run from stage to edge then upb -> edgehog. I always end up upb-ing up.. what am i doing wrong?
     
  6. Teczer0

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    Your messing up your timing and performing the up-b too early.

    Try to do sheik's up-b a bit later and keep practicing because that the only way you can do it >.<.
     
  7. behemoth

    behemoth
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    I am at that awkward stage where I am trying to incorporate ATs into my gameplay, so sorry for the noob questions. I can perform most of the "tricks" that are useful ingame, but the ATs are killing me.

    With no humans to play against, who/where/what level AI do you train against?

    I hate myself for asking this question, but I am having SO much trouble short hopping with sheik (as opposed to Ganon), how did you learn it, just in training?

    When I try to chaingrab fast-fallers after a dthrow, I invariably dash grab and either go too far, or am trying to grab too late. What does a typical dthrow combo on a fastfaller look like for you?

    Other than in Marth matchups (shield against fsmash, WD to grab), do you use WDs pervasively? I'm trying to train myself into using them but am having trouble integrating them.

    Sorry for all the questions, there are more to come, I am extremely grateful for this thread and will definitely be using it.

    Thanks again,
    ~Behemoth
     
  8. AIDS

    AIDS
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    level 5's have decent DI, so it is ok to practise technical skill on them.

    sheiks SH is crap and pathetic, it is not that important, it is a little harder but her short hop is next to garbage!

    for chainthrowing fast fallers, learn the art of drephen =P down throw wave dash back so they cant hit you as they get up, chase there tech or roll, and jump cancle your grab and as long as you time it right you should be able to repeat this over and over, tech chase takes a while but just practise it in regular match's with friends.
    if you want down throw, tech chase down smash also tends to work or start a dash atack combo at higher %'s, you can juggle them with dash atack sadly and finish it with a Fair..GOOO SHEIK, SOOOO CHEEP!


    you only need to WD if the marth is at tipper range or so, normal sheild grab works other wise but train yourself to sheild with L and wavedash with are and since you are able to jump out of your whiel at any time just after he Fsmashes and it hits ur sheild you and WD and grab, also wave dashes lead to good mindgames, teach yourself to do stuff like the basic run forward wavedash backwards kinda fake or jump from below a platform and as you go throw wavedash on it and run off into a Fair etc. that type of idea.

    i hope this answers your questions and you become a better player
     
  9. Teczer0

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    Umm I really don't know what AIDS posted because its a giant block of text >_< so ill just say some stuff i guess as supplementary advice.

    First off training tech skill is just something you have get over do it somewhere training mode fight lv1 comps whatever its really something you have to learn by yourself or maybe a nearby player who may point out your mistakes in performing them.

    Short hop by pressing the jump button (either X or Y) very quickly if you want just have your thumb slide off the end of the button its up to you practice its the only way to get that stuff out of the way. And yea i just kinda practiced it and just figured it out.

    Umm CG fast fallers? you mean like fox? cuz you can't CG fast faller till ridiculous percent and you can do it with up-throw.

    I WD vs every character and i use it often mostly its a mindgame to make people whiff attacks sometimes. Other times its too speed my character up when moving to another platform. I also occasionly WD f-tilt or grab etc.

    Against marth if you Dash attack and they DI in front of you at low percents sometimes if your fast you can quickly WD f-tilt fair then grab again... its unexpected and i caught really good marth players with it >.<.

    Anyway questions are welcome that why this thread is here well in theory lmao. Keep questions coming I love to type and help :)
     
  10. NeighborhoodP

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    ROFL @ at her short hop sucking. you won't be very good if you can't short hop.

    you don't chainthrow fast fallers, you tech chase. basically dthrow, and your wd will depend on their DI. If they don't DI, waveddash back. If they DI forward, wd forward. etc. i don't dash grab my tech chasing, I just jump cancel grab, though many sheiks do dash grab.

    wd is extremely important for spacing. spacing is one of the most important things in the game, so yes, use it.

    I may not be one of the best Sheiks but I am pretty knowledgeable and active, so I'll clean up any stupid **** people say.
     
  11. Teczer0

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    Well your more than welcome to answer :).

    But I don't mind new player questions if the same thing gets asked though... ill just stick on the first (this :() page so that question doesnt get asked again
     
  12. brickman

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    Lol,
    NeighborhoodP is so harsh.

    :)
     
  13. behemoth

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    Oh, okay. I was practicing something you can't do! hahaha.
    I will go look at the guide to see who I can CG.

    Well, I got all excited when I saw the "her short hop sucks" response. I will practice with the Iron will of god herself until I can short hop reliably!!!!

    Now why is there a significant difference for you P about dash grab versus jump cancel? the extra cooldown frames? What about dash attack canceled grabbing?

    I'm practicing against computers (all my friends are casual, and I can't even travel to a decent tourney this time of year) who are my worst matchups. Who would I practice against for the biggest challenge in keeping them off the edge? I still die too many times when I jump out to bair or fair.

    Thanks again.
     
  14. Teczer0

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    Her short hop is amazing remember that :).

    Yea people JC grab for less lag I'm actually not sure about the hitbox of JC grabs vs dash grabs

    dash attack grabing is basically useless dont bother with it.
     
  15. NeighborhoodP

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    i wouldn't say useless. it's actually useful in tech chasing; you might be a little slow in reacting and can only re-grab with a dash attack grab. if you jump cancel they may just spot dodge and **** you (and against fox / falco it's especially bad for this to happen).

    i prefer to dsmash though if i know they're going to auto-spot dodge.
     
  16. Teczer0

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    IMO its useless I have NEVER seen anyone implement the move in a fashion where i thought it could be helpful.

    If you arent sure you can make it in time and you don't know it they will spot dodge just D-smash it covers more options and if they do side step it they may be tech chased again.

    I mean its your opinion I personally never use it and I do fine :).

    Also

    Chain grabbable characters (Using D-throw)

    Sheik
    Marth
    Bowser
    Game and Watch ????
    Ganondorf
    Link
    Mewtwo???
    Ness???
    Pikachu
    Roy
    Yoshi
    Young Link??

    All the question marks im not sure of because my experience vs them is very limited.
     
  17. behemoth

    behemoth
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    Are there any specific uses y'all have found for the fsmash? I have completely eradicated it from my game... and I miss it. Not really, just curious.

    Oh, and does Sheik have any spikes other than dair? I'm not quick enough with it yet to use it over the edge, I will be, but is there anything else?

    One last question: I don't have an AR, is there anywhere I can find hitbox pictures/movies for shiek?

    edit: wow, you didn't have to go and list those, thanks tec.

    hey, I really don't want to hijack AT ALL, but if some experienced players would check out my "noob to competitive guide thread" in MD I need suggestions from people who are good at the game. sorry for the mini hijack.

    Thanks again
    ~behemoth
     
  18. Teczer0

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    D-air is not a spike it actually sends your opponent upwards...

    I dont use her F-smash because its punishable really easily.

    Her F-smash is occasionally helpful comboing at mid percents if they don't see it coming i guess.

    Try to avoid it though d-smash is almost always better.

    EDIT: .. uhhh well just ask "nub" questions here i dont mind at all
     
  19. behemoth

    behemoth
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    ehh, it will stay eradicated. I'm just working on her sh at the moment, it seems really tall compared to other characters.

    Man, I'm okay with people saying she's cheap, she's so much harder to learn than other characters I've played that I don't want too many people maining her!

    General question here:

    Advantageous stages (not considering opponent).

    Your most-used combo against the tough matchups (marth, another sheik, space animals).

    I'm not there yet skillwise, but lets get this discussion going!
     
  20. Teczer0

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    Most used combo?

    Hmm.. i guess Dash attack F-air into tech chasing... or Grab d-throw F-air

    Advantageous stages? basically all neutrals (you might want to stay away from certain ones for certain match ups)

    Jungle Japes
    Rainbow Cruise (I personally dont use sheik here but some players tell me its one of her good stages *shrugs*)
    Kongo Jungle
    Brinstar (Sort of character dependant)

    ummm i cant think of others at the moment.

    Sheik is a good character but fox falco who are the most played characters in the game probably **** her so who cares what they think spacies are gay :laugh: thats why i play them :laugh:
     
  21. behemoth

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    Yeah, I'm trying to learn a spacy for a second main, but I figure that's for after I develop sheik speed. God they're fast.

    As far as what you call neutrals, are those the tourney legal stages?

    One thing I do know is to attempt to counterpick FD against a Marth.

    You don't want any platforms, since it seems against Marth the most important thing is keeping him even with you or above you.

    Marth below Sheik == DEATH.
     
  22. Teczer0

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    Yea counterpicking a marth with FD isnt a bad idea i would do it.

    Neutral Stages

    Final Destination
    Dreamland 64
    Battlefield
    Yoshi Story
    Fountain of Dreams
    Pokemon Stadium
     
  23. NeighborhoodP

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    Sheik's best stage is Fountain of Dreams without question. Sheik rapes that stage pretty badly. Unfortunately it's probably the only stage she has a significant advantage on. Battlefield is also good for her. I personally hate the f*** out of Pokemon Stadium when it changes, but when it's normal it's good. I also like YS vs Falco.

    Fsmash is good sometimes, I've been working on finding a use for it. Omar uses it well: run behind, fsmash. Works well. If they're spot dodge happy also works.
     
  24. behemoth

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    Does the second strike work as a spike?

    As far as the Omar use, I'm assuming you're working to hit them with the second kick? CCing the first leads to bad things for Sheik as far as I can tell.
     
  25. Banks

    Banks
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    uh yea, marth isn't quite chain grabbable in the same way those others are. It all depends on DI, for instance if marth were to DI forward from Sheik you can run forward and grab, but if they DI straight up they can jump out before you can get a grab. Marth is by no means as CG'able as yoshi, other sheiks and all those real easy ones. However I find that people either di foward once and you can get the cg once, then they go the other way, and you can usmash them from that. more experienced players will avoid the CG, less experienced people can be CG all day because they don't learn.

    I think a good counterpick for marth is dreamland, because their fsmash does not reach through platforms, therefore you can use them freely with wavelanding and whatnot, wherea on FD you don't have as many movement options.

    oh and good call on the thread tec0, i think at one point I told plank to make one, just because of his name recognition from the guide, I was thinking of doing one as well, but i saw u play Darc at VLS and you looked pretty sick so you are just as qualified as anyone.
     
  26. NeighborhoodP

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    no idea if it works as a strike.

    yeah, the second kick.
     
  27. behemoth

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    I'll investigate the spike thing.
     
  28. Ijuka

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    >_>

    Nice advice you're giving there. Dash attack canceled grab has insane range, and it indeed is the fastest way to grab a character at point X, f they are far from Sheik.

    It takes less time to dash there and do dash attack canceled grab than it does to dash further and JC grab. NEVER use dash grab, dash attack canceled grab is far superior. -_- And, it's the only way Sheik can chainthrow Peach in PAL.

    I HAVE seen someone implement the move in a fashion where it is helpful. In fact, I implement it in a fashion where it is helpful.

    You should never dash grab, and the small teleport actually turns people's timings off surprisingly often. Try it before talking like you know something.

    And know what else you can do? You can run to your opponent, press crouch to stop right in front of them, and grab them after they sidestep. Why doesn't anyone use this? It works.

    Of course it doesn't work if they expect that, at least a friend of mine buffers a roll away. But you can catch them out of that with the dash attack canceled grab once again.

    You can do Fair-fsmash against floaties around 20-30%, comboes into another fair unless they DI it properly. my opponents pretty much never do, because it's quite surprising when you use a fsmash.

    You can learn it's range(where it won't hit them behind you), and use it as a counter-attack or even as an approach if they don't expect it(which they don't). It leads into a fair or something similiar so it's not completely useless. But you can do fine without using it at all, and I sugest you to use it sparingly if at all.

    In fact, Sheik is the easiest character(Okay, maybe Peach) to use at the noob - intermediate level. Just learn to spam tilts, spam fairs, spam dsmash, grab, and some smart play, and you'll do a lot better than the users of other characters after the same amount of training.

    The stages I love are Yoshi's Story and Battlefield and also Dream Land 64 because of their platforms. I suck at FoD, but with NeighborhoodP's advice I think I don't suck so much in there anymore. =P

    Against Marth: Ftilt, fair, dash attack, fair, dash attack, uair fair to finish. Fair only if you know they'll DI away. Dsmash instead of dash attack as soon as you think they'll DI the dash attack away. The uair might only work in PAL.

    Against Fox and Falco: Good ones that work? dash attack/ftilt any number of times, uair-fair or uair-uair(weak hits)-fair or just fair to finish, depending. Uairs only work in PAL.

    Against Sheik: Tilt-fair-dash attack-tilt or fair , depending, after which dash attack again and finish with uair-fair or just fair.

    Mostly you have to improvise the comboes, but those I have hit with pretty consistently, and at least against Marth the dash attack fair combo works pretty well.

    Amsah did at 30% in a Sheik ditto: Dash attack utilt dash attack fair dash attack ftilt fair. The coolest combo I have seen in a Sheik ditto.


    Oh, and for counterpicking Marth I would pick FD. The reason why is.. well, because I beat all the Marths in here on FD, but not so well in other stages, even DL64. It's actually not so bad a stage for Marth, they just have to play a bit differently.

    on FD against Marth I would spam needles, dash dance and wavedash staying out of his range. Then when he attacks I would find lag and punish it, usually with a grab, and start the tech-chasing process from there(in NTSC you just ****, no need to tech chase).

    the Ftilt-fair-dash attack etc comboes work really well there, and I like edgeguarding on FD as well. It's just a good stage vs Marth, the best in my opinion(Of the neutral stages). Oh yeah, and I also spam needle cancels whenever I can, but that's just me.

    Ohh, and instead of run behind - fsmash, I like to run behind them and usmash so that I hit with the tip of the hitbox behind me. Works pretty well sometimes, and if it hits, it's a free shffl bair into **** or something similiar.


    Was this post long enough? Hopefully at least some of it was useful.
     
  29. Ijuka

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    accidental double post, ignore
     
  30. Retroking2000

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    Dash attack canceled grab is a boost grab I am a marth player and i do it to sheiks all the time
     
  31. Teczer0

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    Dash Attack canceled grabs really don't "boost" you range it just sort thrusts you forward and you move more forward to do a grab.

    I have NEVER used it i usually just JC grab its more useful because it reduces some lag in case I miss.

    Also again I have NEVER seen anyone make use of dash attack canceled grabs. Because you have seen someone use it doesn't make it useful. Anyway I have tried it and never thought of using it.

    You said that using dash attack canceled grabs are the fastest way to get to another point. I agree with that HOWEVER I am going to say if you know relatively where your opponent is going to be you don't need the excess movement. Sheik isn't the fastest in the game but she is definitely fast enough and her regular dash grab or JC has enough range for a grab to a point where sometimes you can just WD back or forth and STAND there and then chase for the grab.

    The only thing I can possibly think about after you posted that is maybe if you reacted too slow at a moment maybe you MIGHT need the extra little movement. But to me i still see it relatively useless and you haven't really done much to change my thought about it.

    About your comment on crouching and grabbing remember that I posted that I said "If you don't know what your opponent is going to do". Obviously if you know ahead of time he is going to side step yea you can friggin d-air him if you feel like. In other words I posted to D-smash him because if you DON'T know what your opponent might do and you get to the opponent fast enough D-smash covers more options then randomly hoping for a grab or sumthin.

    Banks - Yea thats true ... well if marth DIs up I usually up-smash :)

    And thanks for the the compliment :) I actually want to make one cuz i post too much >.< lmao my reputation as a player is terrible though T_T.

    Btw did you use Banks in pools as your name? I remember something like Gorilla... and stuff lmao.


    EDIT: It might have more use in the PAL version *shrugs* I can't say anything about that because i never seen or played the PAL version.
     
  32. brickman

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    Teczero, you have even more time to post than me!
     
  33. Teczer0

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    LMFAO yes...sadly its true.... T_T.

     
    ComeT____ likes this.
  34. cablepuff

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    Do you ever use down-air against floater? Or is it best to avoid it.
    * edit * when is it best to use it.

    I mean shielded down -air means dead sheik. (i.e. Mango vs Mew2king last stock) against jiggly.

    Against peach you can try to sh down air her after her down smash ends at mid to high which leads to back-air, up-air or fair.

    Against Luigi it works, except he can down smash if you miss , or do some karate chop combo.

    How long did it take you to learn chain grabbing? Like do it in a real match, against people who mix up their DI....

    Btw you 2 stock queendvs twice... thats like awesome.
     
  35. Teczer0

    Teczer0
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    Thats an interesting question...

    Well personally I use D-air rarely and I usually use it to tech chase when my throws send someone above me onto another platform. I also use it sometimes if I lightsheild hog marth and use it to set up for a b-air or up-air or f-air too :).

    Well I haven't tried using it on a peach that d-smashed because I was always afraid that they can CC it or sumthin so usually I would short hop and needle then just grab them and combo them out of the grab. However your idea doesn't sound too bad as long as you make sure you don't do it at like 20%.

    In general I would avoid the D-air as an approach its a great move to continue a combo or help a tech chase sometimes but as an approach its too slow.

    It didn't take me long at all I just tried it on a match and i basically did it on my first try (w/o JC grabbing because i didnt know it existed at that point).
     
  36. Teczer0

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    Because it simply wont let me edit double post sorry :(


    Lol thanks for the compliment :) Anyway QDVS is awesome to play i wish i was able to do another edgeguard cuz QDVS probably didnt see it coming XD. But that would mean i would have 4 stocked him so its impossible :( <3 QDVS.

    Also Up-smash out of shield is amazing :laugh: I'm talking about Sheik's upsmash out of shield too :laugh:.

    I'm pretty sure banks saw me use it ;).
     
  37. knightpraetor

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    shrugs i haven't gotten much use out of boost grabs in normal match situations..but in techchasing it is godly and far superior..just use it..it's good
     
  38. Banks

    Banks
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    In pools at VLS i was Banks yea, i'm from Maine so I am in a crew with Darc, Dazwa, th0rn and all them. In pools round 1 i came in second losing only to plank in sheik dittos, which I was on my way to winning before he CG me relentlessly. I was pool leader for pools round 2, but i squandered horribly and came in 5th losing to sensei and dope, ande barely losing to kaiser and hyuga. me vs kaiser was terribly squandered, third game on yoshi's story last stock i was well ahead in percent and went too low trying to back kick him and just died =(

    but yea lol i had never heard of you before VLS but you looked pretty pro-tastic lulz friggen upsmash out of sheild was harrrdcore, never thought to use that so much vs jigly but it looked very effective
     
  39. Teczer0

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    Everyone plays different and uses different moves.

    I never used it and probably never will because I haven't tried it out too much.

    I prefer JC grabbing if you think dash attack canceled grabs help you then by all means go right ahead. Im not here trying to force you to play in a certain way. I'm only trying to give anyone help if they need it ;)

    banks - LMFAO i used it just because i thought it might work never tried it before though LMAO. It actually isn't too bad though if they try to go behind you from a fair or n-air your shield you can actually hit them with it :laugh:. Don't do it to a b-air it makes children cry :(.

    And apparently you weren't in my pool O_O.

    And thanks for the compliment no one hears of me I'm just a random player who isn't ranked known whatever :) its more fun being an underdog sometimes anyway.
     
  40. cablepuff

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    I gather some videos where down-air might be useful in actual tourney matches but its situational.

    a.) Tech chase off platform. (1:26-128).
    Isai vs Husband
    b.) Fake out ground attack KoreanDj vs Mew2king 1:40-144.
    c.) KoreanDj vs Mew2king35 - 40.
    d.) As a fake out move to peach that would try to spot dodge or shield grab you : 58 secs , 1:12 secs.

    I can't find matches where sheik punishes peach block down smash out of shield with sh down air around mid to high percent.

    err.. how do i delete this post.
     

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