Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[SonuvaBeach]

KK what buttons do you use for nair? I can't get it OoS fast enough. slow fingers >_< I'll likely continue to use Y & A regardless so I don't JC grab, but just curious

 

[unknown522]

KK uses X and A for everything

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Y and A is probably better for SH nairs but I learned everything with X. It doesn't really matter - just do what's comfortable.

Slide from jump to A. Don't tap.

 

[unknown522]

Y+A all day!

*** the X button

 

[soap]

I use Y+A, but also control stick and c-stick for stuff

 

[KirbyKaze]

I obviously use c-stick for buffer jumps but that's mostly because you have to.

 

[soap]

hmm I never really buffer jumps. When is a good time to use them?

I mostly don't like the idea of not knowing exactly when I will jump

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm trying to implement it vs Falco so I can buffer FJ away from him and get it out ASAP underneath platforms and then waveland off them to escape his pressure strings. Seems particularly effective vs shine grab attempts, because from some positions you can waveland off and hit him for whiffing the grab.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Glad you asked soap as I was curious as well.

I'm trying to implement it vs Falco so I can buffer FJ away from him and get it out ASAP underneath platforms and then waveland off them to escape his pressure strings. Seems particularly effective vs shine grab attempts, because from some positions you can waveland off and hit him for whiffing the grab.

This sounds too good to be true. I need to practice this and see when it's useful as well now.

 

[Sweet™]

Just my two cents...
I found it way easier to use the c-stick and z for SH Nair OoS.

 

[knightpraetor]

can you short hop with a buffer as long as you release the Cstick in time?

how long do you have to release the Cstick from the start of the buffered jump? sounds really good for marth as well. I have been thinking about it for a while actually

 

[KirbyKaze]

You have to release the c-stick but yeah it's doable. You have 2 frames or so to do it (same amount of time on a SH to let go of the button).

Me vs a local Peach in friendlies. He's not good yet but we're working on it.

 

[knightpraetor]

isn't the problem then that you can't react? you have to guess when you will be able to move and release on time, right?

so effectively you just increase the frame window of the action you need to do from 1 to 2 two frames..where if you're wrong you full hop instead, while normally if you're one frame off you just jump late by one frame instead, right?

 

[KirbyKaze]

isn't the problem then that you can't react? you have to guess when you will be able to move and release on time, right?

so effectively you just increase the frame window of the action you need to do from 1 to 2 two frames..where if you're wrong you full hop instead, while normally if you're one frame off you just jump late by one frame instead, right?

I don't recommend holding it. It probably makes more sense to flick the c-stick roughly when you're going to come out of shield. So, yeah, you'd have to time it (why do you say 'guess'?). You should know roughly when stun is going to end anyway just because... it's something you should know lol. You have to time most of your shield actions anyway so this shouldn't be an issue.

You can argue that this isn't true buffering because you kind of need to manually time it a bit and therefore might not get the first available frame. I'd tend to agree with this. Literally just holding the c-stick for buffer jump and getting a good action or counterattack opportunity is more of a Peach & Fox thing.

 

[knightpraetor]

ok maybe i'm confused but is the buffer window of the cstick really large or something? i thought that if you just flicked the stick and you were still in stun that it wouldn't actually queue the move. I thought it had to still be held when stun ended for the jump to take place...in which case why not just time the jump out of shield properly?

you make it sound like when you flick C-stick the input there holds for several frames so that even if you have released the Cstick before stun ends you will still jump after the end of stun. is that the case?

 

[Kaffei]

Me vs a local Peach in friendlies. He's not good yet but we're working on it.

Wow u destroyed him lol

 

[omgwtfToph]

Jethrotex! :D

 

[KirbyKaze]

ok maybe i'm confused but is the buffer window of the cstick really large or something? i thought that if you just flicked the stick and you were still in stun that it wouldn't actually queue the move. I thought it had to still be held when stun ended for the jump to take place...in which case why not just time the jump out of shield properly?

you make it sound like when you flick C-stick the input there holds for several frames so that even if you have released the Cstick before stun ends you will still jump after the end of stun. is that the case?

It's exactly the same as timing with the jump button. The window isn't any larger. Some people just like to jump OOS with the c-stick. That's it. If there's no direction on the c-stick at the end of the stun, no input goes through because there's no input to go through.

I'm not sure where the confusion is.

 

[Jethrotex]

Wow u destroyed him lol

I sacrificed myself in order to save the snow princess, the mission was accomplished. Now, to kill the ostrich queen!

Jethrotex! :D

Yo! =D

 

[knightpraetor]

so basically not much advantage unless i'm full hopping. oh well. i just thought buffered first frame retreating short hop nairs would be nice out of shield..life is just not that easy huh

 

[KirbyKaze]

Holding the c-stick in a direction to make good things happen is more of a Peach thing anyway.

 

[Kaffei]

I sacrificed myself in order to save the snow princess, the mission was accomplished. Now, to kill the ostrich queen!



Yo! =D

well said, haha

 

[soap]

Holding the c-stick in a direction to make good things happen is more of a Peach thing anyway.

give them some credit, you can't buffer a dsmash


I like when peach players are mashing the stick down furiously but they can't seem to get the dsmash out. Always amuses me.

 

[KirbyKaze]

In the future, Peaches will buffer into jump away > float OOS and it'll be mad gay. But not for us. We'll always have back air.

 

[ShroudedOne]

And everything else that gives Sheik the advantage over us.

 

[unknown522]

give them some credit, you can't buffer a dsmash


I like when peach players are mashing the stick down furiously but they can't seem to get the dsmash out. Always amuses me.

lol. Me too

 

[garrR]

What's the "standard" way to techchase spacies? Do most of the top players do it purely on reaction? I either guess in place (up-smash) or side (run and boost grab); I can react to either option pretty reliably, but not both options, which makes techchasing into a 50/50 for me. I've been working on techchasing characters like Falcon purely on reaction, but the wakeup shine from spacies scares me since being a little slow can mean a combo for them.

 

[Sweet™]

What's the "standard" way to techchase spacies? Do most of the top players do it purely on reaction? I either guess in place (up-smash) or side (run and boost grab); I can react to either option pretty reliably, but not both options, which makes techchasing into a 50/50 for me. I've been working on techchasing characters like Falcon purely on reaction, but the wakeup shine from spacies scares me since being a little slow can mean a combo for them.

This is seriously the hardest part of the MU for me.
You just have to learn the other players tech habits.

One thing that always gets me, is they DI behind me, and tech roll past me. It's best to just see if they tech roll. If they don't, and they're infront of you, jab reset and regrab, or upsmash, it they're behind you, I'd just dsmash if they're above 30% or so.

I'm sure KK has way better advice than me. I probably have it all wrong. lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Regrab is fairly standard until about 45% or so.

Then keep grabbing them or dash attack or u-tilt or f-tilt (tilts are for the tech stand / non-tech). I like u-tilt because it can lead to some serious nonsense and isn't too hard to hit reactively as long as you overlap your body over theirs properly in time but it's janky for a few reasons. And you have to hit non-techs out of the ground bounce or else you don't reach them because Fox and Falco lie kind of low to the ground when they stop moving in the non-tech animation.

Jab > hard reset > u-smash / dair works on Fox to like 32% and on Falco to like 40% but be wary of SDI stands (much easier with Falco).

D-smash on tech stands / non-techs is a good way to kill at high percents (100%+). You can also tilt > fair. D-tilt isn't bad and is often not staled below 7% so it's a good option to keep in mind. Dash attack the tech rolls.

In general the tech roll window is really lenient to get reactively so the one you want to devote energy and focus to is the tech stand.

On occasion, u-smash can cover multiple tech options if you time it and position it correctly. This takes some finesse though and the timing is awkward because it's out for so little time (and has a long startup).

Against non-techs, if you know they're going to getup attack, u-smash OOS is really good and usually leads to at least a dash attack (and then whatever dash attack yields). Starts being good around 30% (before the hit). SHing over getup attacks is also very good and can yield free fairs, nairs, or even dairs.

There's a lot you can do. Be good at boost grabbing. Walk forward if they DI away. Otherwise just turn around. Keep your actions after d-throw simple. Sheik's dash grab is amazing.

Picking up on tech habits allows you to u-smash or dair on people when you'd normally react and therefore skip a lot of the work by transitioning it directly into a big combo. Downside is that you can miss and lose your punish so choose your spots carefully. Devoting focus to the tech rolls is honestly not worth it IMO because of how ridiculous Sheik's dash attack is. It also sets up combos about as well as u-smash in a general sense (and dair isn't really feasible on a tech roll anyway unless you're willing to make the hardest of reads) so you might as well stick to that for the tech rolls.

Countering tech stand shine can be done partially by spacing. Max range your grab like you would vs Puff.

 

[Ministry]

you cant react. its all guessing.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Let's keep the trolling in this thread to a minimum.

 

[ChicknMonkey]

Sheik Trot? Yes? No?

Note: If yes, i am naming it the Sheik Shuffle.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Countering tech stand shine can be done partially by spacing. Max range your grab like you would vs Puff.

I liked this whole post but wanted to further inquire about this. Why do you say "like you would vs Puff?" What does maximizing distance on your grab vs. Puff do? Does it catch even crouching Puffs or something, because of the hitbox? Or does it just make it harder for Puff to rest you if she is crouching?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Or does it just make it harder for Puff to rest you if she is crouching?

This, basically. If you space your grab during combat then she has to make a ridiculously good reaction to get you with jump > rest. Usually they grab or f-smash you instead. Both of which are manageable.

Bunch of matches of me on this channel from the recent tournament. Not sure it's worth watching but you can take a look if you want.

My sets with Unknown and Weon are really trashy & janky. I don't think they're up yet anyway though. Don't ask me anything about those sets here.

 

[stelzig]

I think Y and A is probably better for SH nairs but I learned everything with X. It doesn't really matter - just do what's comfortable.

Slide from jump to A. Don't tap.

I tend to hit A too early when slding. Any tricks to delaying the A input?
I've been tapping for a while, but sliding seems way easier... If it just wasn't too fast =/

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm amazed you're that fast but if too much speed is the problem then I don't have much else to tell you.

 

[Doser]

I mostly grab when I slide my finger from Y to A. It's really annoying.

 

[Sweet™]

New current discussion topic should be about times when switching to Zelda may be opportune.

Like when Jigglypuff misses a rest.

Maybe not.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I mostly grab when I slide my finger from Y to A. It's really annoying.

I don't think this should happen unless you're doing the nair too early (and the jump is being therefore eaten by stun and you're left with just the A input, thus producing the shield grab).

I am okay with discussing applications of Zelda transformations since they're situationally useful when used properly. It's mostly a recovery technique though.

 

[Doser]

When I practice doing a Nair OOS without anything hitting me I grab like 90 percent of the time. I just don't understand the timing, if I go any slower it's not fast enough to hit the shorter characters with a full hit.