Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[KirbyKaze]

Lol. I want to see videos of you laying PAL Sheik against people.

PAL Sheik is terrible.

She's so bad that I don't even consider her Sheik.

I want a separate forum for PAL Sheik.

 

[Bob Money]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c82kxSNf8uI#t=11m21s

KK, you are so fraudulent.

Haha to be fair falcon does have a decent reverse grab box, so i dont think KK exactly tricked him. it was really cool though.

 

[unknown522]

Man. I remember at the Big house when I u-aired behind s2j's shield and he grabbed me facing backwards. I'm like wtf is this crap?!?

 

[Luma]

haha KK you suck =P

 

[KirbyKaze]

You know I love you Luma <3

 

[Luma]

just keep playing pal for a bit and you'll see sheik in a complete different way, might boost your game alot, who knows =D

 

[ShroudedOne]

Haha to be fair falcon does have a decent reverse grab box, so i dont think KK exactly tricked him. it was really cool though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzwFrvbxEVQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=28s

Well, it seems to be a thing. I wasn't aware.

Also, at 11:36, can someone explain to me what exactly this is? S2J's dair collides with the hitbox (?) of Sheik's upB, and M2K, instead of going to the ledge (which I think he was aiming for) lands onto the stage. I wouldn't bother asking about it, but this has happen in a couple friendlies as well, during which I (as Marth) downtilted a Sheik's shino stalled, clanked with it, and then he ended up appearing under the stage, and he didn't know what was causing the issue. I thought it was the down tilt then, but I didn't have anything to back it up with.

Looking more closely, M2K might've made a slight "angling" error, I think?

 

[KirbyKaze]

just keep playing pal for a bit and you'll see sheik in a complete different way, might boost your game alot, who knows =D

The more complete version of my intial thoughts of her are that she's really underwhelming compared to NTSC Sheik. When you figure NTSC Sheik is generally accepted to be 3rd (or lower) on the tier list, and she got some of the hardest nerfs, it really hurts. I don't think she deserved to be beaten with the nerf bat. She's still top tier, but her game feels a lot more limited & linear.



Biggest gripes I have with her:

1) How easy it is to edgecancel the d-throw as a space animal and that the window to snag tech rolls away is tiny.

Not entirely sure how to combat this yet but I think I need to use more positional stuff to create tech traps... the fact that they can't go behind you effectively is kind of cool and probably the only upside to the new throw. That said, I have some basic ideas because to produce the edgecancel positioning you have to non-tech or tech stand from certain lengths, which places more dependency on that tech option to get you out of the combo (and tech stand is the most vulnerable option to burst damage, which Sheik can do). So it feels like the thinking games with tech options are a bit different. Because it's a directional throw, it's also strictly better than her f-throw for gimping at the edge because it basically forces people to DI it hard away or they get drop-zoned - whereas f-throw seems to give them a much better trajectory and so forth (especially at low percents). Maybe this will empower a more offensive Sheik that goes for d-throw gimps? I dunno. But yeah. Stuff to play with.

2) How the opponent's shield goes from average to amazing against her once her d-throw stops comboing.

I really hate this. I despise this and it makes me mad. I always view NTSC Sheik as a character that gets a lot stronger as the stock goes on because she gets access to her tilts, her combo moves start doing more stun to enable really sophisticated links, her push moves deny crouch counterattacks, etc. PAL Sheik feels this way but there's also this cut off point at some percent (not sure where yet) where her throw sucks even though the rest of her game has been improving. The result? It powers up defenses that are good vs her attacks (shield is one of the big ones). Not so sure how to combat this one.



There are a few changes that I like, but they're mostly to do with the Fox MU. Fox's recovery is a lot easier to edgeguard (that reduced Up+B distance is a huge nerf and I understand now why so many Euro Sheiks look for gimps so much) and Fox's u-smash just isn't as good as it is in NTSC - it doesn't combo as well, kill as well, and so forth. I also like that I can dash attack tech stands & non-techs without needing to wind up with a dash or WD.



These are just initial thoughts though and they're subject to change as I play her more. If I play her more. I really do prefer NTSC honestly.


@ Shrouded - M2K messed up his angle after S2J hit the poof with an attack that clinks with it (specials have weird and often unique priority rules). Not very different from ICs or other characters shooting projectiles at the poof. I doubt the timing change caused M2K to mess up the angle 'cuz all you do is just hold the direction after the explosion appears... odds are the angle was wrong before the clink.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, now that I see it now, it looks like his angle was slightly off before the poof. And the fact that the timing changes also explains why the person I was playing with messed up, as he wouldn't know (not being a regular Sheik player). Thank you.

 

[Deleted member]

just keep playing pal for a bit and you'll see sheik in a complete different way, might boost your game alot, who knows =D

it might also give him the bad habit of not grabbing at low %, making him a strictly worse player.

david don't play project m sheik if you hate the pal version. i've been telling them those same problems for months now and it's always seen as "player entitlement"

 

[Sweet™]

Can we get a topic on recovering to the stage against Spacies, Peach, and other higher-ish tiers?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sure. New topic. Anyone want to start with their thoughts and such? I hate just... wall-of-texting the board and killing all future discussion :/

 

[omgwtfToph]

Every time I see a Sheik not DI Peach's edgeguard dsmash properly, I cringe. Hold down on the first hit, then immediately up so you get sent inward. Be wary of Peach floating inward and nairing, and so forth, though.

Just wanted to say that.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I've always wondered why Peaches don't just start edge guarding with reverse nair. Maybe it doesn't come out fast enough. The trajectory might not be as good as downsmash's, either, now that I think about it (though at higher percents, reverse nair > downsmash, imo)

Walls of text seem to be a recent problem of mine as well, KK. I guess I can understand (though yours are really insightful and such).

 

[Luma]

umbreon if he would pick up such a bad habit so fast he wouldnt be such a good player dont you think?

and kk, dont get too deep into pal, just try to be as good with sheik in pal like you are in ntsc now (its possible, look at amsah or ice for example)
and when you go back to ntsc you got a sheik with alot better basics + that ******** broken dthrow (+uair) = you'll win everything =D

 

[Teczer0]

I've always wondered why Peaches don't just start edge guarding with reverse nair. Maybe it doesn't come out fast enough. The trajectory might not be as good as downsmash's, either, now that I think about it (though at higher percents, reverse nair > downsmash, imo)

Walls of text seem to be a recent problem of mine as well, KK. I guess I can understand (though yours are really insightful and such).

Reverse nair vs sheik is imo better than Dsmash, but dsmash is just easier to do.

It sends at a better angle and you can react to like, double sticks if they to it.

Oh, and hi everyone.

Feels like its been a while being here.

 

[Wake]

I use reverse nair and reverse fair.

 

[Deleted member]

umbreon if he would pick up such a bad habit so fast he wouldnt be such a good player dont you think?

habits are not related to skill as far as i can tell, so no.

 

[omgwtfToph]

LOL nice sig umbreon

Good **** peepee

 

[KirbyKaze]

and kk, dont get too deep into pal, just try to be as good with sheik in pal like you are in ntsc now (its possible, look at amsah or ice for example)

I spent many years on my Sheik, developing and figuring out a style I can enjoy playing. From what I've played of PAL, I honestly can't see myself enjoying her to the same degree. So simply because of that I don't think this is possible. I can try to learn her but... I dunno. I don't really see why I couldn't learn Sheik's footsie and non-grab stuff better in NTSC from playing it more or focusing more on those aspects of her during practice matches.

Anyway, Peach edgeguarding Sheik? I have some thoughts on that...

Peach's edgeguarding is pretty good vs Sheik. Not much to say as far as survival strategies go. When you poof onstage, your only real options vs FC nair are to ground tech it (although she can follow that up if she catches it - probably with f-throw or another aerial or something) or you can try to get a really good survival DI (if the percent is right) and then not get killed during the free fall. There are tricks against turnips (catch them and throwing them at her, bouncing them with attacks and then up+Bing into them to knock you closer to the stage, etc.) that can be used to assist Sheik's recovery.

Recovering on the side platforms isn't a bad idea if you want to try and just survival DI the nair really hard. Beware of uairs at like 120+. She can also u-smash you on YS (if you're close to the middle) and FoD for vertical kills in the low 100s. A lot of Peaches don't go for that kind of thing, though.

DI d-tilt the way she's facing and then get ready to DI her fair or nair for survival (she can't follow up on a properly DIed d-tilt with super combos AFAIK).

If she gets a bomb or stitch when she's below 100 you're screwed if she does everything right and that sucks. But you can try to make it harder for her and it sometimes works. Try to minimize lag with the corner recovery or get right next to her so if she throws it at you immediately the crouching animation of the poof will cause the item to pass overhead (if you get close enough, her side throw actually blind spots even on standing Sheik but she can counter this by tossing the item down if she notices how you're trying to position yourself). Landing on the platform can be okay if you suspect she's going to DJ off the stage and throw it like that (often very relevant vs bomb) but this loses spectacularly to her simply standing up (and then blasting you off). You can also try to go for the edge if you think she'll try to do some kind of DJ positioning with her item.

 

[knightpraetor]

hey kk, today i was playing IC and realized blizzard out of shield isn't too bad when people to outspace your shield..it made me think about B moves out of shield.

is sh into charge double needle decent against any form of shield pressure? i get the feeling fox/falco would just hit you with an aerial if you tried to do it after the shine but i was curious if it worked on anyone else's pressure.

 

[KirbyKaze]

lowest air needle on shield is -1

you can sometimes grab after and have it work simply because you time your grab better than they time their shield grab, but it's not reliable and vulnerable to sidestep, roll, wd, jump, and faster attacks (nair OOS in sheik dittos, shines by spacies, up+b by bowser, etc).

it's not awful pressure 'cuz you can poke with it and other stuff but it's not terribly reliable by any means

 

[soap]

Occasional needle to jab/tilt/dsmash mixups are nice tho

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

occasional needle to jab/tilt/dsmash mixups are nice tho

oh **** real talk soap speakin some gospel ****

 

[S l o X]

KK how often are you on aim

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fairly frequently.

 

[Sweet™]

I guess my biggest issue about recovering in the Fox matchup is that I get shine spiked out of my up+b animation way too much.

What are my better options if I'm recovering to the stage upwards at about a 45 degree angle?

 

[PGH Carroll]

Davids so nice to you sheik players :+)

Also, breaking news.
My sheik is probably one of my best chars. I "MAY" start using sheik for foxes.. Vids coming soon.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I guess my biggest issue about recovering in the Fox matchup is that I get shine spiked out of my up+b animation way too much.

What are my better options if I'm recovering to the stage upwards at about a 45 degree angle?

Pull away from Fox or try to attack him to protect yourself.

That's about it.

 

[Sweet™]

There's times where I'm try to fair him as he comes down, but nine times out of ten, the shine hits me as my fair is coming out.

Is fair the best option...?

 

[KirbyKaze]

fair and uair are usually okay

if you have your dj, ffing into dj or djing away from him to space your move can be some good tricks that help outrange his shine

but if he does it perfectly then you're basically screwed

 

[Sweet™]

So instead of being aggressive offstage and trying to hit him with a fair, my better option is to play defensively, and spacing myself with a fair?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Generally, yes.

 

[Sweet™]

KirbyKaze. I love you.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You wouldn't be the first.

Anyway, a small side note to wrap up this sub-topic (since more people might want to discuss recovery? anyone?)

I find the only time you want to really attack them with your aerial (rather than defend yourself with it) is when you're trying to keep them from grabbing the edge. And even then... you're not so much attacking them so much as you're defending the edge. But yeah, that's one of the main exceptions. I'm sure there are a few more, but I can't think of them right now so they're probably very rare and with practice you'll probably learn to recognize them as they come up and act accordingly.

Davids so nice to you sheik players :+)

Also, breaking news.
My sheik is probably one of my best chars. I "MAY" start using sheik for foxes.. Vids coming soon.

But if you're actually serious, cool. Welcome to the Sheik board. It's basically me answering questions ranging from interesting to boring but every now and then we talk about life and stuff. It's pretty laid-back here.

 

[soap]

When u gonna win a major KK?

You have the potential.

 

[Wake]

hahahaha KK, it's amazing how often people do that. I was actually going to comment on that, but that picture is perfect.

 

[KirbyKaze]

When u gonna win a major KK?

You have the potential.

I'm working on it.

Evil birds, avid pokemon fans, and Swedish royalty stand in my way. Plus a cast of thousands.

 

[TheLake]

kk im afraid that someday

somone is gonna post your name

with three k's

and im gonna make this face " :/ "

im glad and trail are in this thread

get em caroll

and god save the queen

 

[knightpraetor]

i swear i asked this before but what is the combo tree like on peach? i sometimes do uptilts at low percent but they can Di slightly to the side and then nair out if i try to tilt again. most of the time fair seems to follow up..and the one i dropped today I thought I could have hit nair with instead..but even so uptilt nair seems pretty weak. I remember seeing m2k get these ridiculously large combos off throws in some videos, so I'm wondering if anyone knows any large strings at low percent.

While sitting here I had the idea that maybe uptilt turn around weak bair to strong bair might work but i dunno