Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Sweet™]

At percents less than 10, dthrow to tipper upsmash is almost guaranteed. I get it 90-some percent of the time.

After that, you can usually fair, regrab after their tech roll, dthrow again to upair if they DI slightly behind, or fair if it's above/slightly in front of you.

It's basically anything you can get after your initial attack after the downthrow.

EDIT: I try to offer as much as I can when it comes to this. It's in no means the best thing to do, it's just what works for me a lot of the time.
Anyone else, feel free to tell me I'm wrong, and ****. lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

i swear i asked this before but what is the combo tree like on peach? i sometimes do uptilts at low percent but they can Di slightly to the side and then nair out if i try to tilt again. most of the time fair seems to follow up..and the one i dropped today I thought I could have hit nair with instead..but even so uptilt nair seems pretty weak. I remember seeing m2k get these ridiculously large combos off throws in some videos, so I'm wondering if anyone knows any large strings at low percent.

While sitting here I had the idea that maybe uptilt turn around weak bair to strong bair might work but i dunno

If they DI away, CG to 20. Now that that's out of the way, if they don't...

At super low percents all you can do is u-tilt > fair / uair and then try to get an illegitimate followup. Some good illegitimate follows include [FJ rising fair > falling fair / falling needle > ???] and [SHFF fair AC > f-tilt / more fair / dance around her landing spot to punish panic actions]. You can also try to get illegitimate followups with other moves, but they're generally less good than fair and uair at this percent range.

After super low percents, uair and f-tilt are generally reliable combo moves if they DI anywhere but away. Away DI is tricky and you're probably gonna have to just freestyle with her fair, f-tilt, illegitimate dash attack, and nair. And then just see what you can get. It'll sometimes be good, it'll sometimes be d-throw > fair. Such is the life of Sheik.

BULA pointed out u-smash. While it technically never combos out of d-throw on Peach except at a really specific percent range, it's not really a bad one to go for (and there are a bunch of reasons why). It leads to very juicy setups. Tipped u-smash > uair (although honestly the uair is optional) at 0-10% range gives you a lot of control and if you clip her float or DJ then she's in a lot of trouble because Sheik.

A lot of M2K's long combos work as a result of him covering a certain defensive action the opponent can take (a DI choice, a tech choice, how they attempt to combo break, etc). They're not true combos. However, that kind of makes them more impressive in some ways IMHO.

 

[Sweet™]

Can a well timed fair hit a Fox sweetspotting the ledge with Up+B and Side+B?

EDIT: Or is there any other attack worth doing? (assuming UP+B is from below the stage sweetspotting, and on, let's say, FD)

 

[knightpraetor]

After super low percents, uair and f-tilt are generally reliable combo moves if they DI anywhere but away. Away DI is tricky and you're probably gonna have to just freestyle with her fair, f-tilt, illegitimate dash attack, and nair. And then just see what you can get. It'll sometimes be good, it'll sometimes be d-throw > fair. Such is the life of Sheik.

can you get away with falling upairs or will they nair out? i just think falling upair would combo better.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think fair can hit either but it's a pretty tight timing. Might as well needle > something if they're coming up from below. Or grab edge > stuff.

can you get away with falling upairs or will they nair out? i just think falling upair would combo better.

I think you quoted the wrong part of my response lmao but yeah the reason you follow with fair (or needles, or nair) is because falling uair doesn't protect Sheik's front and it has more range. Falling uair you basically need to be overlapping their body - it often just doesn't reach outright.

You can sometimes FJ uair > falling uair on her, but that's a super duper specific percentage & DI so... yeah. For a lot of stuff like that, you gotta eyeball it, basically.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah i played around with everything people mentioned today. i also tried uptilt walk forward uptilt again at zero, but the timing is too tight; not sure if peach's nair or sheik's uptilt wins if you time it perfectly, but it's close enough that it's not worth the risk

 

[KirbyKaze]

You might as well just u-tilt > f-tilt if you want to do that kind of combo and then just decide how aggressive you want to be about the pursuit

 

[soap]

okay okay not too sure how practical this is yet, but I was thinking of using the opening frames of needle charges to avoid shield grabs and other short range upper body attacks. You can store and counterattack when ready.

Less recovery than sidestepping but obviously it is extemely delicate spacing I am talking about here.

At the least it looks pretty funny.

I actually think this could potentially **** in sheik dittoes.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

I am trying to teach my friend how to play smash, he's learning sheik.
I don't main sheik so I don't know how to tell him to do the needle to grab on my Marth that I eat when fighting actual sheik's.
I tried doing it on him but he was able to roll away in between the needle and grab. What am I doing wrong?

 

[KirbyKaze]

okay okay not too sure how practical this is yet, but I was thinking of using the opening frames of needle charges to avoid shield grabs and other short range upper body attacks. You can store and counterattack when ready.

Less recovery than sidestepping but obviously it is extemely delicate spacing I am talking about here.

At the least it looks pretty funny.

I actually think this could potentially **** in sheik dittoes.

Sounds weird. I take it this is a leanback abuse?

I am trying to teach my friend how to play smash, he's learning sheik.
I don't main sheik so I don't know how to tell him to do the needle to grab on my Marth that I eat when fighting actual sheik's.
I tried doing it on him but he was able to roll away in between the needle and grab. What am I doing wrong?

You need to hit the last needle fairly close to the same time you land with Sheik, then grab ASAP. More needles means you can release them earlier during your descent.

 

[soap]

Sounds weird. I take it this is a leanback abuse?


You need to hit the last needle fairly close to the same time you land with Sheik, then grab ASAP. More needles means you can release them earlier during your descent.

ya, leanback. the lean is pretty quick. I tested max range sheik grab and hit opposing grab and needle store at the same time and you just lean back out the way, u can release and you are back in range to grab back

you can lean away from sheik's dtilt and fox usmash nicely too

 

[KirbyKaze]

Old tournament set from Impulse

KK (Sheik) vs IB (Falco)

 

[soap]

I have a really basic technical question regarding teching. That 40 frame window after you press the button where you can't tech, is that only while you are in stun? Such as if to say you press the button to L-cancel then get hit, you will not be able to tech?

I started playing melee again and was basically wondering if I should re-work my L-cancel muscle memory to the light analogue press timing. Particularly for fox as he needs to hit his techs.

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's whenever you hit L. Not just when you're in stun.

Strong Bad I summon thee.

 

[Vincent46]

I have a really basic technical question regarding teching. That 40 frame window after you press the button where you can't tech, is that only while you are in stun? Such as if to say you press the button to L-cancel then get hit, you will not be able to tech?

I started playing melee again and was basically wondering if I should re-work my L-cancel muscle memory to the light analogue press timing. Particularly for fox as he needs to hit his techs.

Yeah, I think this is the reason sometimes when they hit you just before you l-cancel your aerial, you happen to miss your tech even though you hit L before landing.

Also with marth there's this dirty rick where you uthrow chaingrab spacies, and just before you regrab them if you you hear the other player hit L hoping to tech, you dthrow them really fast and they can't tech because of this, then proceed to fsmash them off the edge or whatever.

 

[unknown522]

It's whenever you hit L. Not just when you're in stun.

Strong Bad I summon thee.

that is correct.

Stolen info from PP. But when you get u-thrown onto a platform by jiggs/fox as a FFer after missing an l-cancel, you usually can't tech because all of that happens in less than 40 frames. That's why you see it happen pretty frequently when people get rested from non-tech on the platform.

 

[soap]

So when u tech in place and get hit inmediately you are almost guaranteed to miss a tech?

 

[omgwtfToph]

Which is why L-cancelling by only pressing the trigger button in halfway is a great idea, because then you can still tech at will if something goes wrong. Only a hard press of a shoulder button counts as a tech attempt.

 

[darkatma]

Which is why L-cancelling by only pressing the trigger button in halfway is a great idea, because then you can still tech at will if something goes wrong. Only a hard press of a shoulder button counts as a tech attempt.

wait someone verify this. you can still tech with light press, but it doesn't count as a tech attempt?

or is it, you can only tech if you hit it down all the way

 

[KirbyKaze]

No, you l-cancel with the light press and THAT doesn't count as a tech attempt.

You can only tech if you press all the way.

 

[darkatma]

No, you l-cancel with the light press and THAT doesn't count as a tech attempt.

You can only tech if you press all the way.

ah mkay

I always L cancel with light shield, but I guess I never noted that teching only happens with a hard press. Maybe that's why I miss so many techs with spacies

 

[unknown522]

Yeah. You didn't see eggm's thread about that?

It was called like "public service announcement to the new players" or something like that

 

[darkatma]

I did see that thread! It was about wavedashing, but I already do what he talks about in that thread \

I'm pretty sure I'm just noob at teching because spacies fall so fast

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No the thread was saying to do what the topic of discussion is here: lcancel with light press so that you don't have unnecessary missed techs

 

[soap]

Ya I only really noticed the problem of missed techs after aerials when I play fox.

It took a couple hours to get the hang of it but I kinda like the light presses. It is kinda relaxing. Should save alotta strain on my hand cuz I use L for everything. My hand always hurts by the end of tournies.

Light presses make my needle stores real quick too.



Now that I'm kinda used to lightshielding I'm trying to think if I should use it more cuz I almost never did before.

I know you can only powershield with hard shield correct? What are some good lightshield uses as opposed to full shield.

 

[knightpraetor]

that marth trick sounds really broken on stages other than FD..need a grab facing toward the center on either stadium or the center area of a platform stages but you could get a 50% chance of tipper fsmash with that setup mixed with just upthrowing and letting them fall while missing the tech

 

[mers]

The only use for lightshielding I ever consciously remember and use is to be pushed off a platform or the stage when you want to get away from something. Sheik is hella good from the ledge, so this can get you out of some otherwise scary situations.

 

[Sweet™]

Jesus Christ, this is like a ghost town.

 

[KirbyKaze]

*shrug*

Give us something to talk about.

I'm in serious practice mode but right now I'm mostly running through stuff I already know how to do.

 

[Sweet™]

Let's go...

Tips on Luigi.

Had a close set with Vudujin yesterday. Wanna work on it.

 

[soap]

Let's go...

Tips on Luigi.

Had a close set with Vudujin yesterday. Wanna work on it.

You just gotta control the ground better. Force him into the air and make it really hard to get back down safe. He is very very fast with getting in your face with ftilts and usmashes you don't want to have to be on edge defending against all his high speed entries.

To get him in the air, standing needles. Don't even shoot them, just charge em and store them real quick then rush and try to trap his options. Pay close to attention to which platforms you think he will go to. Try to think like Luigi.

He will realize that you are just baiting and he will slide in anyway. Just jump back and space. You have to realize the range where he is close enough to slide under your short hop and just escape to a platform or full hop land with a bair as he passes or fast fall charging needles and hold it to standing needles and begin the pressure cycle over.

In general I've always had greater success dealing with his aerial priority as opposed to his ground priority. And that has more to do with the mobility and ability to space around his air game.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Basics of Luigi MU...

D-throw uair is godlike in this MU (after like 20%). It requires some tech skill to hit but it *****. Below that use u-tilt, f-tilt, or FJ fair > falling aerial / needle.

Hang outside his F-tilt range and SH bair, fair, air needles, dash dance, or shield stuff.

Don't tilt or jab into his crouch. Even if he doesn't crouch jab can suck because his nair is crazy good.

Main focus with positioning is to deny his WD game at close spacings with your wall. At further spacings, use needles and platforms.

Main focus with punishment is to keep him in the air and outspace or evade-punish his combo-break efforts.

Recover onto platforms whenever possible and be prepared to super DI his kill moves. Do not recover onstage if you can help it because Shoryuken kills at dumb percents.

It's hard in general for Luigi to space because of his low traction. Running into his walk approaches and shielding is pretty good - you can fish for shield grabs pretty easily this way. His range is also really awkward because his f-tilt is much longer than his other moves, which can empower crouch and certain kinds of OOS counterattacks.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Luigi matchup is grab his wavedashes mid wavedash.

Then d-throw.

Then bait nair and regrab.

GG

 

[soap]

Luigi matchup is grab his wavedashes mid wavedash.

Then d-throw.

Then bait nair and regrab.

GG

I've done that before but it is highly situational and not a situation experienced luigis put themselves in. They generally will have their wavedash spaced to have a move coming out as they reach you.

Even at mid ranges they can shorten the wavedash so that they are not sliding into you while lagging.

 

[-RedShadow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ26FUXzIns&feature=my_liked_videos&list=LLBbW_z_c-hA_Zpr4ruzMDIA

Sorry about derailing the topic at hand but I was wondering if I could get some feedback on this. It's my most recent set (on YT) vs. spacies, and although it's a couple months old, I still feel like I need more work...

 

[ChivalRuse]

I've done that before but it is highly situational and not a situation experienced luigis put themselves in. They generally will have their wavedash spaced to have a move coming out as they reach you.

Even at mid ranges they can shorten the wavedash so that they are not sliding into you while lagging.

Just so you know, my region used to have two really good luigi players (Vist and Winston). So I know what works and what doesn't.

If you really want to know how to do it, I can explain. You don't just stand in place and grab him when he wavedashes in. Instead, you run toward him intuitively and grab him in the first 15 frames of the wavedash (before he can attack).

 

[Kaffei]

Just so you know, my region used to have two really good luigi players (Vist and Winston). So I know what works and what doesn't.

If you really want to know how to do it, I can explain. You don't just stand in place and grab him when he wavedashes in. Instead, you run toward him intuitively and grab him in the first 15 frames of the wavedash (before he can attack).

lol that is really funny

 

[ChivalRuse]

Perhaps. But it works.

By the way, what do you guys think of approaching with Sheik? Sometimes you can run straight at somebody without having to worry about too much, but at other times you have to approach incrementally (as Peepee would construe what I'm trying to articulate) with run up shield and running wavedashes if they challenge your control of the stage.

 

[soap]

You can just walk up to certain characters and ftilt and see how they try and work around that

 

[omgwtfToph]

I keep thinking Kaffei's avatar is Hard Gay.