Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[KirbyKaze]

I found Plup harder but that might just be his weird yet effective missile game. I've never seen someone use them so well.

 

[Renth]

If any of you sheiks (KK) inparticular, Want a $1 MM at big house find me. I could use the match up exp.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ok. $1 bo3? And then like 2-3 games after? We can pretend it's another MM if people try to kick us off. I like comparing how people play in pressure environments (MMs, tournament) versus no-pressure environments (friendlies).

If you want we can talk about what you're having trouble with while we're playing the friendlies. Maybe I can help.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

If any of you sheiks (KK) inparticular, Want a $1 MM at big house find me. I could use the match up exp.

I'm in. I need some Ganon experience as well.

I like comparing how people play in pressure environments (MMs, tournament) versus no-pressure environments (friendlies).

Oh boy, then you'll love playing me.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh boy, then you'll love playing me.

I like playing most people.

 

[Renth]

Ok. $1 bo3? And then like 2-3 games after? We can pretend it's another MM if people try to kick us off. I like comparing how people play in pressure environments (MMs, tournament) versus no-pressure environments (friendlies).

If you want we can talk about what you're having trouble with while we're playing the friendlies. Maybe I can help.

Excellent.

For starters, this is my most recent set vs. a Shiek player. That being said, I know a lot of technical errors I made. Those were on me. I have a mental block when it comes to edge guarding sheik. I've had a lot of bad experiences trying to steal the ledge from her, holding ledge standing up, wavedashing back on ect. I tend to mess up the timing and well, I guess i'm interested on your take on properly ledgehogging sheik because something in my brain says to leave it alone.

I'm in. I need some Ganon experience as well.

You're more than welcome to chain grab me to death every stock tremor, remember this game is about winning. If you have a mechanic you aren't abusing that can give you an edge in a match you should. I won't get mad, it's part of the game. - My way of saying yes I guess lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm pretty sure that link is you ****** Swag. I'm not watching that again lol (until I'm home anyway).

Linguini was harder than Kage in that MU and he uses a lot of platforms to try and move around my attacks so he can punish them (usually with bair). I eventually got the hang of his style (after a game) and ***** him but... I dunno. I played super gay and I'm not proud of it lol. Needle camped him on FD and PS :/

Against Kage I just kind of roshambo with and I win more exchanges because I've got glitter and he doesn't. Linguini made me camp and play lame (which is how it should be, I suppose). At APEX I didn't need to super camp Linguini but... they were also just friendlies. So I dunno what to make of them. I think Sheik's disrespect is hard for the platform style to overcome though. AC fair has no weak :/

This is probably not helpful lol.

Uhh... I think side-B and down-B are legitimately useful in the MU for dodging her naked grab attempts and counterattacking but you'd have to ask Kage about when & where he does it. It's one of Kage's little gimmicks that I never see other Ganons use to the same level of effectiveness and it periodically catches me. It's the thing I find hardest about him lol.

If you can shield DI her f-tilt forward you can shield grab it, which is kind of cool. But shield DI on ground moves is hard. Although a lot of Sheiks have automatic f-tilt places (like after fair, after WD, etc) so you may be able to make it work off prediction. Just a thought.

As for the edge stuff, it'll be easier to show in person but basically if she's close enough to recover with DJ > air-dodge or whatever (basically if she can reach without having to Up+B) then you have to protect the edge with an attack (backwards uair maybe?), hit her away, and make sure you don't get faired (or she doesn't slip by your cover and reverse the situation on you). If you realize she's backing away to poof, speed at grabbing the edge gives you a direct counter to it. Otherwise you need to settle for ledgepressuring, which is okay, but not as good as a kill.

If she's further then it can be worthwhile to jump after her but it takes some guts & precision. Edge grab > check how she's Up+Bing (they may pull away to try and wait out a preemptive stand so watch for stuff like that) > then time the stand accordingly. If you manage invulnerability well, stand will have enough intangibility to dodge the double poof (I'm serious). So refreshing invincibility is obviously recommended if you notice that's what she's going for. From there, once you've stood up, basically pick your favourite heavy move (probably bair, stomp > stuff, or grab > bair). On FD CG her to death if the percent is right to do so.

Learning the WD FF edgehog is worth it vs Sheik to expand your edgeguarding windows, repertoire, and to counter planking.

 

[Renth]

I'm pretty sure that link is you ****** Swag. I'm not watching that again lol (until I'm home anyway).

Linguini was harder than Kage in that MU and he uses a lot of platforms to try and move around my attacks so he can punish them (usually with bair). I eventually got the hang of his style (after a game) and ***** him but... I dunno. I played super gay and I'm not proud of it lol.

Kage I just kind of roshambo with and I win more exchanges because I've got glitter and he doesn't. Linguini made me camp and play lame (which is how it should be, I suppose).

I think side-B and down-B are legitimately useful in the MU for dodging grabs and counterattacking but you'd have to ask Kage about when & where he does it. It's one of Kage's little gimmicks that I never see other Ganons use to the same level of effectiveness and it periodically catches me. It's the thing I find hardest about him lol.

I wasn't aware you'd seen my set. I was just using it as a basic example to how afraid I am of edge guarding sheiks up b. There was a sheik main I use to play against, every time I would shield his aerials and attempt a shield grab he'd crouch instantly and up smash me. Worked a lot of the time, until I grew to expect it. Ganon can't grab a lot of the cast in their crouch animation, I'm surprised I don't see people abuse it more often.

 

[KirbyKaze]

You can grab Sheik's up+B with Ganon but you have to wait for her to start standing up. This is also how Marth has to time his ledgehop uair on her up+B lag.

edit: whoops I thought we were talking about edgeguarding

Aerial > crouch on shield is godlike as Sheik if they watch for your jump OOS (stomps, etc). I'm not sure what to tell you. If they're over 50 consider Up+Bing them. Otherwise you may just want to back off and get your footing back. It sucks but... unless you're prepared to take a big risk, repositioning might be your best option.

If you can figure out how complacent they are or what they're watching for specifically you may be able to bait their jump counter and move around it with DJ > counterattack (stomp probably) but it seems like a risky business. She's at a big advantage. In general I don't think Ganon's shield is good vs Sheik aside from her jab, d-smash, and badly spaced f-tilts. I think staying mobile or putting a low lag move (bair, uair) into that zone is better but... yeah, you will be forced to shield and it sucks. Not much else to say.

To beat Sheik's crouch in neutral (not when you're being pressured) I think you need to figure out how complacent they are and what they're trying to do with their positioning

To his credit, Ganon wins a CC war with d-tilt as long as you stay outside her d-smash range (not hard, you've got longer legs) so don't worry about d-tilt lol it's not a threat to you at this point unless you jump and misspace something in the air

I think baiting her is the way to go here

Try empty hopping in front of her just outside her f-tilt range and see if you can punish what she does (if she does anything)

Empty jump > FF > shield can also be good vs tilt-happy ones

You can also space bair

Bear in mind that a crouching Sheik can only really maneuver by WD, shield options, and jump (this is half true but just trust me for simplicity's sake) so they're probably trying to either draw you into something or stuff your move. If you can figure out which one they're attempting, you can get a hit. You want to bait her or call her motion. It's hard but doable. And you can sometimes get huge returns for the hit (stomp > CG, fair > edgeguard opportunity, uair > more uair / position, etc).

Run WD down is also a good choice when used sparingly. It's what Foxes often do. It's solid but Ganon can't act out of WD down with as much so that limits its utility. Not a bad scouting play or bait though.

 

[SonuvaBeach]

For starters, this is my most recent set vs. a Shiek player. That being said, I know a lot of technical errors I made. Those were on me. I have a mental block when it comes to edge guarding sheik. I've had a lot of bad experiences trying to steal the ledge from her, holding ledge standing up, wavedashing back on ect. I tend to mess up the timing and well, I guess i'm interested on your take on properly ledgehogging sheik because something in my brain says to leave it alone.

You're more than welcome to chain grab me to death every stock tremor, remember this game is about winning. If you have a mechanic you aren't abusing that can give you an edge in a match you should. I won't get mad, it's part of the game. - My way of saying yes I guess lol.

Damn, impressive win though. You're considerably faster than any Ganon I have ever played so I'll likely take a game or two just to get used to that anyway. I'm excited. Swag and I have vastly different styles of sheik play so should be good.

If I was playing against you in that set, I'd feel lucky that you gave up the ledge a few times. You got there pretty sneakily with quick wavedashes or cancels, occasionally hold the ledge and tap back up if you think they'll go to the edge. Swag seemed like he favored going to the ledge pretty often, partially because you almost always jumped off. Make the sheik more unsure of that. Not sure of Ganon's best way to do this though and still be able to hit the sheik back off - gotta go check out some Kage lol.

And alright haha. I do have a tendency not to CG until I'm losing so I'll keep that in mind. If only CG's to death were as easy as they seem, I like tilts better anyhow.

EDIT: I walk away and come back and click post and KK has already elaborated on what you should do. Lucky you lol. Go KK

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't CG in some situations because learning a regrab timing to beat Ganon harder seemed superfluous to me. Moreover, there's some precision to it at mid percents because of slight DI > jump and the prospect of messing up slightly, eating a stomp, and then being CGed to death myself seemed like a lame proposition. So I just CG the away DIs and combo everything else. I feel my punishment consistency has improved because of it but some people swear by the CG and I mean it legitimately works so if you learned it why not use it?

 

[Sweet™]

KK, I would love it if you played some friendlies with me sometime this weekend.
I'll pay any amount of anything.

 

[Renth]

KK, I would love it if you played some friendlies with me sometime this weekend.
I'll pay any amount of anything.

I'd be careful with those kind of claims, you are an attractive human being. Also, I've deduced KK just enjoys helping people/playing new people. So it likely won't take much more than a hey, play me?

 

[Sweet™]

I'm the next Chu when it comes to good looks.

And that's good then. I'm looking for a lot of exp grinding. :D

 

[KirbyKaze]

KK, I would love it if you played some friendlies with me sometime this weekend.
I'll pay any amount of anything.

MM me for 2 bux or something bo3 MBR recommended ruleset and we'll do 1-3 friendlies after

Just like everyone else

 

[john!]

For starters, this is my most recent set vs. a Shiek player. That being said, I know a lot of technical errors I made. Those were on me. I have a mental block when it comes to edge guarding sheik. I've had a lot of bad experiences trying to steal the ledge from her, holding ledge standing up, wavedashing back on ect. I tend to mess up the timing and well, I guess i'm interested on your take on properly ledgehogging sheik because something in my brain says to leave it alone.

your ganon is stylish as ****

 

[Strong Badam]

too lazy to read KK's advice so hope I'm not repeating him

against Duck you should shield more often than usual. this facilitates more grabs -> stuff and fewer samus hits -> stuff, and there's not too much she can do about it. just don't be dumb about it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I just said throw your gigantic aerials into the Samus and don't get down smashed. Oh and grab.

 

[Kaffei]

I just said throw your gigantic aerials into the Samus and don't get down smashed. Oh and grab.

ok you know how u said that you can slap her and shield and her CC dsmash won't work

does that strat work vs anyone else

 

[KirbyKaze]

Most other characters you can just out-range their counterattack with your fair

But Samus's d-smash is enormous

 

[darkatma]

I have yet to play plup but I feel like all sami are the same.

Renth I'm down for a 1-2$ MM.

 

[silentSWAG]

good luck man
you did real good against duck a while back

 

[Sweet™]

Johny, I am sidebetting SO hard that you beat Scar.

 

[Scar]

Johny, I am sidebetting SO hard that you beat Scar.

i wanna bet too! how much let's get specific :D

 

[darkatma]

LOL <3 scar

Scar's hella good vs sheik, you guys don't even know.

 

[silentSWAG]

aye, im pretty good vs falcon

 

[omgwtfToph]

That's nice.

Scar gonna get in dat *** doe

 

[Kaffei]

Most other characters you can just out-range their counterattack with your fair

But Samus's d-smash is enormous

o lol
thanks

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think the fair --> shield thing might have some utility vs Peach. But you can outrange her d-smash. It's kind of hard though so it might be worth going for at some spacings. She also doesn't really have a good grab on you either (like Samus) so that may also buff its utility. I've never really tested it very thoroughly though.

Marth, ICs, other Sheiks, and various other characters all try to crouch into grab as their go-to out of crouch vs Sheik because of reward, range, speed, etc. So shielding after the fair is not necessarily a good idea. Out of those three it probably winds up working the most vs other Sheiks (because of their aptitude to d-smash or tilt after being hit [which is the alternative to grab]) but even then I'm not sure why shielding would be better than moving (dash and SH being the best ones).

 

[L__]

sheik is kinda fun sometimes

 

[KirbyKaze]

She doesn't really play like any other character when you're high level with her.

 

[L__]

i love that about her

 

[Sweet™]

I'll put down $5-$10 on my boy.

EDIT:
:^)

 

[Deleted member]

I was just using it as a basic example to how afraid I am of edge guarding sheiks up b.

hog the edge. when she poofs, get up and do bad things to her. ledgedash grab should be no problem for you given how comfortable you are with the character.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I'll put down $5-$10 on my boy.

EDIT:
:^)

And I'll put $10 on mine!

Hype

 

[Kaffei]

I think the fair --> shield thing might have some utility vs Peach. But you can outrange her d-smash. It's kind of hard though so it might be worth going for at some spacings. She also doesn't really have a good grab on you either (like Samus) so that may also buff its utility. I've never really tested it very thoroughly though.

Marth, ICs, other Sheiks, and various other characters all try to crouch into grab as their go-to out of crouch vs Sheik because of reward, range, speed, etc. So shielding after the fair is not necessarily a good idea. Out of those three it probably winds up working the most vs other Sheiks (because of their aptitude to d-smash or tilt after being hit [which is the alternative to grab]) but even then I'm not sure why shielding would be better than moving (dash and SH being the best ones).

Good explanation. I'll keep in mind =D

 

[Salevits]

I know very little about the IC's matchup.

I'm supposed to fair fair and fair like crazy, whilst watching out for crouch punishes (good spacing takes care of that) and stuff. Keeping IC's in their shield is good. Platform camping and needles to stop approaches and make them do stuff is good I think. Never let them grab, and.. gimp Nana.

..That much would be okay vs some low tier scrub character, but I really feel that IC's are one of the harder matchups for Sheik.. Concidering that, I feel like I really don't know what I should be doing against them.. Help.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I have a set with Fly Amanita (I lose) recorded from this weekend. There is some decent strategic value to it, however. Watch it when it comes out.

Ignore the last match where I try to cheese a win with Fox like a scrub.

 

[Salevits]

I will, thanks.

E: Now that I think about it.. It would help my thinking process if someone could tell me what stages are good/bad for the IC's MU and why..

 

[knightpraetor]

no peach to cheese with? or is your fox just so much better than your peach that fox was a better bet?