Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Lawrencelot]

I don't understand questions like this..

It's not like we humans can count the actual frames, just play and get a feel of how long it takes.

Frame data isn't going to help you much (if at all)...

Spoiler

unless you're asking for action replay movie purposes.

I know, and I usually agree with you on this, but this time I wanted to know what to do after my upB lag in case my opponent sucks and doesn't punish me immediately after my upB on the stage, and also in case I land on the stage with no upB lag. If I have a question about sheik I can't just start playing because most things involve a human opponent. Now I have the answer I know rolling might be worse than keeping your shield up or something in this specific case.

 

[Just Sexed]

LOL at that wiki

Amsah often likes to team with n00bs so he can **** everyone by himself...that's sum intense stuff right there.

 

[Batmansince1939]

does anyone know how to run off stage upb to ledge?

 

[Falcinho]

I just want to say that i like that Amsah posts here =D

 

[elvenarrow3000]

does anyone know how to run off stage upb to ledge?

Yeah you run off the stage, then Vanish to the ledge.

No but seriously, you just have to Vanish while running off the stage. You get the neat like... double explosion and bam, you're on the edge.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You have to run and then upb (while still on the stage) so that you slide off the stage after you started the upb. This changes the ground animation (where she kinda just stands there like a ****** for a minute then disappears) into the air animation (where she starts spinning like a ninja).

You can do the same effect backwards, start the upb in the air then land on the stage (platform, randall) and change the air animation into the ground one.

 

[pockyD]

Just because something is theoretically possible, doesn't mean it's doable for human beings. So in the end, even with frame data you'll have to feel it out and see whether or not you can do whatever trick you had in mind.

I really don't see the point of it all and unless you have a really good example where frame data helped you out tremendously, I don't think I ever will. And if you don't, well then it kind of proves my point.

well just consider the up-b edge stall - frame data tells us it's 100% invincible when done 'well' (it doesn't even need to be done perfectly), whereas that's a very difficult thing to know via practice (because even if you're just 90% invincible, it's possible that people just keep whiffing while you're practicing, or you chalk up getting hit to you making a mistake)

and knowing which characters can or can't jump out of fox's uthrow uair or falcon's throw->knee is HUGE

i feel like i gave examples in my first post so i don't know why you had to prompt me for more -_-

the gist of it is that knowing that X move has 10 frames of lag (1/6 of a second) is not important in itself - nobody's just counting frames and thinking that that specific knowledge is important

knowing that X move has 10 frames of lag, while your opponents' potential punishment comes out in 8 frames instead of 12 frames IS important... frame knowledge isn't used in a vacuum; it's used to compare situations (i.e. if you see the thread in the falco boards about the frame advantage/disadvantage in a dair-shine-dair pillar, you can see the best times to do your dair, how mixing it up exposes different vulnerabilities, how you're 100% grab-proof vs. zelda, etc)

frames are just a concrete way to determine "more" or "less" laggy/effective/whatever

 

[Kira-]

tec0 you're still coming to socal for Pat's House?

 

[nicaboy]

I saw what you looked like b4. Black sheik players for the win.

Also raynx does not look like a fox player at all.

 

[soap]

amsah, what prompted u to **** talk captain jack as a nub?

that whole wiki was such a cinderella story

 

[Nihonjin]

LOL at that wiki

Amsah often likes to team with n00bs so he can **** everyone by himself...that's sum intense stuff right there.

Back then I had to do things like that to entertain myself..
Luckily I'm blessed with really good opponents now, so I don't have to do that anymore. (To be honest, I can't)

well just consider the up-b edge stall - frame data tells us it's 100% invincible when done 'well' (it doesn't even need to be done perfectly), whereas that's a very difficult thing to know via practice (because even if you're just 90% invincible, it's possible that people just keep whiffing while you're practicing, or you chalk up getting hit to you making a mistake)

I figured I was invincible during the whole thing, then confirmed it on brinstar..=]

and knowing which characters can or can't jump out of fox's uthrow uair or falcon's throw->knee is HUGE

I just care about whether I can do it or not and I don't need frame data to tell me that..

I feel like i gave examples in my first post so i don't know why you had to prompt me for more -_-

:embarrass

the gist of it is that knowing that X move has 10 frames of lag (1/6 of a second) is not important in itself - nobody's just counting frames and thinking that that specific knowledge is important

I know, I wasn't suggesting that..

knowing that X move has 10 frames of lag, while your opponents' potential punishment comes out in 8 frames instead of 12 frames IS important... frame knowledge isn't used in a vacuum; it's used to compare situations (i.e. if you see the thread in the falco boards about the frame advantage/disadvantage in a dair-shine-dair pillar, you can see the best times to do your dair, how mixing it up exposes different vulnerabilities, how you're 100% grab-proof vs. zelda, etc)

frames are just a concrete way to determine "more" or "less" laggy/effective/whatever

I guess I'm just not a fan of theoretical situations.

amsah, what prompted u to **** talk captain jack as a nub?

that whole wiki was such a cinderella story

Bordem combined with ignorance. I figured if I come across as a joke and could get people to underestimate me, that would give me an advantage. And though I didn't think I would beat CJ, I didn't think the difference would be as big as it was. He was literally hundreds of times better than what I thought was humanly possible.

But yeah, it's a pretty fun story, that's seriously how my smash career went though..

 

[pockyD]

you're operating under the assumption that you can do everything you're testing perfectly (i.e. not messing up your up-b stall when testing it out on brinstar, jumping on the first frame possible out of throw combos, etc)

that may or may not be the case for you, but when 99% of people first try, they are unable to up-b stall anywhere close to perfectly and so being told that it's POSSIBLE to do it while maintaining perfect invincibility is very good to know so that they can continue to practice it, whereas if it was indeed impossible, knowing that would prevent them from wasting time trying to perfect it, then testing it on brinstar/wherever

 

[Nihonjin]

you're operating under the assumption that you can do everything you're testing perfectly (i.e. not messing up your up-b stall when testing it out on brinstar, jumping on the first frame possible out of throw combos, etc)

Well, yeah, I'm arguing from my own point of view of course. I've never had trouble with these things..lol

As for jumping out of combo's, it's not like you go 'HA! Now that I know what the first frame is to jump out of this combo I can do it perfectly!'. Even with frame data you would still need to do it to get the timing down.

that may or may not be the case for you, but when 99% of people first try, they are unable to up-b stall anywhere close to perfectly and so being told that it's POSSIBLE to do it while maintaining perfect invincibility is very good to know so that they can continue to practice it, whereas if it was indeed impossible, knowing that would prevent them from wasting time trying to perfect it, then testing it on brinstar/wherever

It's just not my thing..I guess it's because I don't practice like that.

I'm not saying don't use it, if it works for you, have at it.

 

[pockyD]

As for jumping out of combo's, it's not like you go 'HA! Now that I know what the first frame is to jump out of this combo I can do it perfectly!'. Even with frame data you would still need to do it to get the timing down.

it's just WHETHER you can jump out, not WHEN you can

if you play dr. mario, you know you can jump out fairly easily of fox's uthrow uair at any percent, so you never really bother to learn how to SDI it

if you then switch to sheik, you can see that you CAN'T jump out, so you invest your time into learning how to SDI instead of trying to jump out 'perfectly' or anything like that

 

[Nihonjin]

it's just WHETHER you can jump out, not WHEN you can

if you play dr. mario, you know you can jump out fairly easily of fox's uthrow uair at any percent, so you never really bother to learn how to SDI it

if you then switch to sheik, you can see that you CAN'T jump out, so you invest your time into learning how to SDI instead of trying to jump out 'perfectly' or anything like that

That doesn't change my opinion. You can figure whether and when by playing..

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It's more efficient with numbers.

 

[Nihonjin]

It's more efficient with numbers.

Not to me..:embarrass

 

[DtJ Jungle]

To each his own gentlemen.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

KK I must have the same problem as you. In recent months, studying frame data has helped me get certain timings down too. I think some people can benefit from frame data, and I think some people can't. It might have to do with their internal concept of a frame being arbitrary as opposed to a finite (though small) period of time or it might have to do with some people being ****ing bonkers and others being sane enough to leave it alone.

I thought this might have helped end the debate last page when i posted it, but i'll reuse it.

Some people like seeing the numbers and adding things up then practicing from there.
Some people like to play the game and figure things out from play experience.

Left brain vs Right brain

Its a timeless argument and it all comes down to which you prefer. I prefer a mixture of both, because i believe in balance.

 

[Nihonjin]

I'm not really arguing Sveet..lol

I can't decide what works for other people, all I said is that I never understood people asking for frame data because it doesn't really help me. If it helps you, then that's great..

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I know, but it seems like you're on the play experience side trying to understand the number side, but its all just a foreign language because you simply don't perceive the game that way.

 

[otg]

Dear Amsah,

You are ****. Why are these noobs arguing with you? You **** extra hard for living in amsterdam. I'm going to europe right now just so I can trip out and have you kick my *** all day in melee.

 

[CanISmash]

NIHOJIN OMG I LOVE YOU. i agree 10000000000%

i mean you can test frames with action replay and come back with whatever you found but knowing how many frames for x i agree is pointless. Just goes back to playing theory fighter because everybody is not frame perfect, every moment of the game.

 

[otg]

Yo canIsmash?

No.

 

[Nihonjin]

I know, but it seems like you're on the play experience side trying to understand the number side, but its all just a foreign language because you simply don't perceive the game that way.

Oh don't get me wrong, I understand the numbers. It's just that pretty much everything I read on frames, I already learned through experience, so I don't see the point of filling my head with numbers. Especially since frame data isn't absolute. And by that I mean that even though you shouldn't be able to jump out of certain combo's, some people are slower than others and might mess up, giving you the opportunity to jump out anyway, but you won't even try because it should be impossible frame wise. (I'm pulling a lot of assumptions out of my butt here, but bear with me :embarrass)

Dear Amsah,

You are ****. Why are these noobs arguing with you?

Because I'm not always right..

You **** extra hard for living in amsterdam. I'm going to europe right now just so I can trip out and have you kick my *** all day in melee.

Should be fun, send me a PM when you get here..:embarrass

 

[TresChikon]

some people are slower than others and might mess up,

This is why I still d-throw usmash with Fox

 

[Luma]

well i guess the reason you dont need the framedata at all amsah is because you have many extremly good people to play with so you can just play and get better

for the rest of us who cant just get better by playing against people in our town, we need at least a prove that it would be possible when we play against better people (like you are playing against a CF all the time but he cant do u-throw -> knee really good and then you get ***** from a good CF because he can do it better and you just dont know what to do)

also some people (even though i dont understand this at all) dont like trying out new things even in friendlies (like me getting combo'd by the same **** 5 times because i was trying some stuff out how to get out, some people only see: lol noob same combo works always)


so in the end wheter or not you "need" the frame data or not is mostly a matter of much how you can play against skilled opponents i guess, or at some point you will just get ***** =D

btw amsah how come you arent in the MBR? guessing from your personality you just would be too nice (like always xD) to really argue with people so you could have a hard time making your point, but aside from that i dont really see a reason why not (maybe cuz of too much work or whatever but come on we need some good europeans in there ^^)

 

[elvenarrow3000]

This is why I still d-throw usmash with Fox

10lrn2tex

Dammit, that was shorter than ten characters. FML.

 

[Nihonjin]

well i guess the reason you dont need the framedata at all amsah is because you have many extremly good people to play with so you can just play and get better

...

so in the end wheter or not you "need" the frame data or not is mostly a matter of much how you can play against skilled opponents i guess, or at some point you will just get ***** =D

Except, people only recently got this good...I didn't have anyone good to play with when I learned all these things..:embarrass

btw amsah how come you arent in the MBR?

I don't read the MBR much..

guessing from your personality you just would be too nice (like always xD) to really argue with people so you could have a hard time making your point

Haha, I'm not nice when it comes to arguing. I just can't be bothered.

but aside from that i dont really see a reason why not (maybe cuz of too much work or whatever but come on we need some good europeans in there ^^)

Well, if you point me to some interesting threads, I might consider posting, but I'm not going to browse their every day looking for threads..

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So lets talk about sheik stuff :D

 

[Nihonjin]

She's broken..:embarrass

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How bad do you think sheik vs marth is in PAL? Its marth's worst match-up in ntsc, but I think its about 50/50 or maybe 55/45 for sheik.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Seems like the absence of dthrow **** would crank the match more in Marth's favor, but I dunno just how bad it got nerfed.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sheik can't CG marth anyways, but i'm pretty sure you can still get ftilt from it in PAL.

Marth got some nerfs in PAL too

 

[Öni]

You can be glad if you will hit with a dash attack after the d-throw...
Marth is pretty much the same. Instead of dair you just make a reverse up-b :D

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Technically, Sheik can regrab off of dthrow once =P But just because she can't chaingrab Marth doesn't mean dthrow doesn't still pwn Marth =(

Marth is lighter, isn't he? Falls over from shine now.

 

[Nihonjin]

How bad do you think sheik vs marth is in PAL? Its marth's worst match-up in ntsc, but I think its about 50/50 or maybe 55/45 for sheik.

Sheik outmaneuvers Marth and her needles wreck his recovery..

So even without the chaingrabbing and extremely easy setup, I think it's still strongly in her favor.

 

[Falcinho]

yeah i heard you can even make 4-stock-comebacks against him =P

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Why does Sheik outmaneuver Marth? Her wavedash is only a frame faster, and her running speed is the same. Plus it seems like her dash dance game isn't as good...

 

[Teczer0]

In case anyone cares

Me vs Vanz friendlies

^___^

Though I think almost every time I picked sheik I got ***** LOL