Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah!

10immaturetaunts

 

[Smooth Criminal]

if your tech skill is way behind his and you're aware of that, that's usually a very important thing to work on at a basic level

This...

(I love you, Pocky.)

lordy, you have to understand that we know a lot more than you. if you cling onto your ego and ignore or make excuses to our advice then it's useless to you just the same if you can't do it. sheik owns falcons. no johns. sheik has INCREDIBLE priority over falcon. no johns. your friend is better than you, and you are making mistakes. accept that before you ask for advice, please

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd this (to a lesser extent. Perhaps I should have just outlined the part about th' ego).

Elvenarrow's advice was super freakin' sound. Might I suggest starting with what he suggested and working from there, Lordy?

On a unrelated note: I started picking up Melee again, guys. I think it's safe to say that my life's back to normal now that I got my car back. Should I start heading to tourneys?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Lordydennek]

Chill out dudes. I know youre better. And I know he's better than me. Just needed some pointers. And thanks for the advice.

 

[Nihonjin]

Who knows how many frames Sheik's rolls last, forward and back? And in which frames can she be hit?

I don't understand questions like this..

It's not like we humans can count the actual frames, just play and get a feel of how long it takes.

Frame data isn't going to help you much (if at all)...

Spoiler

unless you're asking for action replay movie purposes.

 

[pockyD]

knowing whether something is possible framewise lets you know whether it's worth feeling out the timing for something

i.e. shield grabbing a traditional pillar, jumping out of throw combos, etc

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sheik frame data by SuperDoodleMan:

Roll
Invulnerable 4-19 out of 31

 

[ChivalRuse]

Knowing frames is nice because it gives you a feel for what you're going to experience when X move is input.

Having information on like how many frames of lag an aerial has when l-cancelled allows me to judge timings and adjust instead of having to feel it out in the dark.

 

[Tomacawk]

I'm chill. I'm just saying you came on the boards, asked questions, and then johned. I'm not talking **** I'm just trying to help you learn.

 

[soap]

****ing larry david is right

frame data *****

 

[Teczer0]

I'm with Nihonjin really. I only really use my experience for the "feel" of how long certain things are.

>_>

Frame data is kinda nice but stuff that happens within a few frames you really can't control unless you're like Silent Wolf I guess.

 

[TresChikon]

I like frames because then I know that it's possible to do it faster than what I already am.

Frame perfect needle shenanigans anyone?

Always room for improvement.

 

[LooksLikePit]

Does anyone know how to do the KDJ where you edgecancel your upb? I heard it's possible to do every time

 

[Teczer0]

LooksLikePit - Check the first page and scroll to edge-canceled vanish.

And its not particularly hard to do.

 

[LooksLikePit]

No, I'm talking about

You're off the stage and being edgeguarded
Your opponent is hanging on the ledge
You do your up-b onto the stage then edge cancel it on the ledge of the stage

 

[Teczer0]

OH!....

Yea nvm I haven't heard of that one before.

 

[LooksLikePit]

I've done it a few times in matches before and someone told me that you can do it on command

edit: I THINK I might know how this is done, but I have yet to test it: You up-b right onto the very tip of the ledge, and when your opponent gets up from the ledge it pushes you back off of the stage? Idk, I just really want to learn how to do it

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Example? I've heard of it, but I thought it was impossible to do without third party assistance.

 

[LooksLikePit]

I can't find any videos of someone doing it right now, but it's definitely possible

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm not sure, but I think this is what you're talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNvtLmuhwIw#movie_player

1:48

If M2K has D-smashed or Shined, I'm positive he would have hit KDJ.

He tries the same recovery a friendly but Bass hits him for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d04D...next=1&playnext_from=PL&index=46#movie_player

1:03

KDJ fell much quicker than M2K. Perhaps you can fast fall this?

 

[Nihonjin]

knowing whether something is possible framewise lets you know whether it's worth feeling out the timing for something

Just because something is theoretically possible, doesn't mean it's doable for human beings. So in the end, even with frame data you'll have to feel it out and see whether or not you can do whatever trick you had in mind.

I really don't see the point of it all and unless you have a really good example where frame data helped you out tremendously, I don't think I ever will. And if you don't, well then it kind of proves my point.

-snip-

It's not the same thing.

KDJ's was a delayed sweet spot (for lack of a better term), where as M2k really landed on stage and got pushed off..

 

[KirbyKaze]

I learned that if you Nair someone's shield at the lowest possible point with Sheik, you can grab and if they try to shield grab, you will probably win.

I also learned that my Nair is faster than grabbing so if I do that against characters that I cannot grab (Ice Climbers), I can FJ rising Nair backwards and still be relatively safe.

None of it has directly lead to me winning tournament sets or anything extravagant like that but they were nice to know at the time. A few random grabs I otherwise wouldn't have gotten here and there, among other things.

To be clear, I think practical knowledge is far more useful than frame data.

It's not the same thing.

KDJ's was a delayed sweet spot (for lack of a better term), where as M2k really landed on stage and got pushed off..

Alright.

 

[LooksLikePit]

I'm not sure, but I think this is what you're talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNvtLmuhwIw#movie_player

1:48

If M2K has D-smashed or Shined, I'm positive he would have hit KDJ.

He tries the same recovery a friendly but Bass hits him for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d04D...next=1&playnext_from=PL&index=46#movie_player

1:03

KDJ fell much quicker than M2K. Perhaps you can fast fall this?

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. I'll try to experiment more with this tomorrow when I play some people


but both of those examples look the same to me

 

[Nihonjin]

I learned that if you Nair someone's shield at the lowest possible point with Sheik, you can grab and if they try to shield grab, you will probably win.

If you can do that consistently, you're my hero. :embarrass

I also learned that my Nair is faster than grabbing so if I do that against characters that I cannot grab (Ice Climbers), I can FJ rising Nair backwards and still be relatively safe.

I learned that from doing it..

To be clear, I think practical knowledge is far more useful than frame data.

Then we're on the same side..

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Sheik's nair is the same speed as her grab, out of shield, anyway. Seven frames.

I think frame data's useful. It shows me that I can dtilt as Marth and still have room for tech chasing. It tells me that pillaring isn't perfect shield pressure, it tells me that I can click shield two frames into the Dolphin Slash and still ledgetech against max hitstun attacks.

Lots of stuff.

 

[Nihonjin]

Sheik's nair is the same speed as her grab, out of shield, anyway. Seven frames.

Ah, well...so..? O_o

I think frame data's useful. It shows me that I can dtilt as Marth and still have room for tech chasing.

I could've told you that and I don't know anything about frame data.. ;o

It tells me that pillaring isn't perfect shield pressure

I could've told you that too..lol

it tells me that I can click shield two frames into the Dolphin Slash and still ledgetech against max hitstun attacks.

English please...

 

[unknown522]

I
To be clear, I think practical knowledge is far more useful than frame data.

whole-heartedly agree. =P

 

[TresChikon]

Hmm... that early?

He said he can press L really early as in 2 frames and still walltech something laggy like charge shot or something.

I usually hit L depending on my position to tech, but I never thought bout it in frames. Very cool.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you can do that consistently, you're my hero. :embarrass

It's not hard. You Nair really low. And then you grab. Don't JC grab.

The same principle of low Nair --> grab also "works" with needles. I quote "works" because the data actually says it doesn't work but they have to be frame perfect to beat your grab. And since nobody shield grabs perfectly, it's not hard to get away with.

Then we're on the same side..

Vaguely. I think knowing practical things is more useful. I think frame data can, on occasion, translate to practical things. Understanding the game's basic structure is far more important than numerical tidbits.

Knowing how techs work has solved me many problems in recent months.

whole-heartedly agree. =P

I love you and hate you simultaneously.

 

[Nihonjin]

It's not hard. You Nair really low. And then you grab. Don't JC grab.

Then I guess I just suck, I'm pretty sure I can't do it.. (But I'll try anyway)

Vaguely. I think knowing practical things is more useful. I think frame data can, on occasion, translate to practical things.

Fair enough, I guess it depends on the kind of player you are.

Knowing how techs work and how fast certain characters can move out of shield has solved me many problems against Fox, Falco, and Falcon in recent months.

How..? o_O

Frame 4 jump is a misnomer. It means airborne on frame 4. 3 frame startup. So it's actually a frame faster than grab.

Funny how I notice a 1 frame difference...guess I'm more of a robot than I thought...D=

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fair enough, I guess it depends on the kind of player you are.

I'm the dumb kind.

How..? o_O

This one is largely "me" specific because I have awful timing and I'm dumb. Knowing their data helped me time my grabs a bit better because I was always doing them too early or too late. So then I looked up what my window was and it made sense. I also memorized their tech animations to get a feel for where the invincibility was... I don't think most people really need to do that to get timing down but I'm special (in a bad way).

I also learned a while back from N64 that Pikachu's tech in place has ridiculous invincibility. And, as embarrassing as it sounds, that one actually did help a lot a couple months later...

One small extra thing. The Nair --> grab thing only works if your Nair is close to full power. Otherwise there's less stun (but you already knew that, likely). It works because after the Nair you and your opponent break even for frames and neither of you have an advantage. So because nobody shield grabs perfectly and Sheik has monster grab hitbox, you can usually grab them first.

 

[Nihonjin]

This one is largely "me" specific because I have awful timing and I'm dumb. Knowing their data helped me time my grabs a bit better because I was always doing them too early or too late. So then I looked up what my window was and it made sense. I also memorized their tech animations to get a feel for where the invincibility was... I don't think most people really need to do that to get timing down but I'm special (in a bad way).

I also learned a while back from N64 that Pikachu's tech in place has ridiculous invincibility. And, as embarrassing as it sounds, that one actually did help a lot a couple months later...

Hey whatever works, more power to you man..=]

One small extra thing. The Nair --> grab thing only works if your Nair is close to full power. Otherwise there's less stun (but you already knew that, likely).

Yes, but thanks anyway..

 

[KirbyKaze]

I hope I can play you at Pound 4.

 

[Nihonjin]

Well, assuming you know what I look like, just approach me and we'll play..=]

 

[KirbyKaze]

But I don't

 

[Nihonjin]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Smasher:Amsah :embarrass

 

[elvenarrow3000]

WTF SHEIK HAS A THREE FRAME NAIR?!

Why does anyone even bother with other characters? asfsdfiosjfosidjfds

On topic wise, yeah, obviously, you can get the same knowledge from experience but uh, for those of us who don't have that much experience... it's helpful ^_^

Although I don't see how I would've done the ledge tech stuff without frame data.

But then again, Sheik doesn't have to worry about ledge techs. Bleh. Stupid Sheik.

 

[Nihonjin]

WTF SHEIK HAS A THREE FRAME NAIR?!

Why does anyone even bother with other characters? asfsdfiosjfosidjfds

Killing-comboing-invincible-all-purpose-1-frame down B...

 

[TresChikon]

Killing-comboing-invincible-all-purpose-1-frame down B...

Surgical-ambiguous-unethical-both-ways-sex-change down b

sorry, im leaving nao...

 

[Nihonjin]

Surgical-ambiguous-unethical-both-ways-sex-change down b

sorry, im leaving nao...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

KK I must have the same problem as you. In recent months, studying frame data has helped me get certain timings down too. I think some people can benefit from frame data, and I think some people can't. It might have to do with their internal concept of a frame being arbitrary as opposed to a finite (though small) period of time or it might have to do with some people being ****ing bonkers and others being sane enough to leave it alone.

For the sheik upb cancel, there has been a thread on it before (i think from ~07). Use the search function if you want to read it (not sure what the title was).

From what I remember of the thread, you want to aim yourself so that you land on the tip of the stage. When the opponent does the stand up from the ledge to punish you, you are behind them and get pushed off the stage to the ledge.