Rebanning stages

[S l o X]

@Arm - Like making the only counterpicks Brinstar, Mute City and Poke Stadium?

Neutrals only test tournament would be **** but nobody does that. EC =/= WC.

 

[Tero.]

Hi, I main Fox and floaties are dominating this metagame, could we please use this ruleset:

Neutral:
YS
PS
FD
DL
KJ

CP:
Rainbow Cruise
Floats
Onett
Jungle Japes
Peachs Castle
Corneria

Who's with me?

Spoiler

In all seriousness: Pound ruleset would be perfect if you switch FoD with Stadium.
Stadium is the stage most likely to be played on when using stage striking and look at the advantages of having the same neutral pool for singles and doubles.

 

[Skler]

Tero you forgot Green Greens! That's the BEST fox stage! Well, except maybe Onett and Temple.

Armada, Corneria is banned/was banned for pound 4. Same with Mute City. Fox had one great CP stage (RC) and one good one (PS). Peach had two great ones (Brinstar was legal there wasn't it, as was KJ64).

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I've been killed from PFs far to many times to ever respect that stage.Besides the game breaking camping that works on a good amount of the cast, you fall through most of the pokemon and randomly die and CAN'T recovery well maybe if your puff on some of them and you abuse you rising pound. it's also a walk up stage which is common;y hated with passion. ******** upwards and side killing and WTF camping that is impossible to caugh as a fair amount of people.

People want that when they could have brinstar depths at least there you can reocver though the holes and camping isn't really as bad, sure the camping lasts like 20secs till the stage moves.I can also be good/bad for everyonein an even way peach gets easier edge gaurd, easier to keep up with them but loses chain throws(at times) and goodwards killing can change a lot from early, 60% if at the highest point but why the F*** would ou want to be there, and on some partly it's late upwards kills.

BD is more legit than MC or PF I wouldn't feel as bad about that as getting down-smashed a lot by peach on MC.

People simply just hate it I don't even know why I CPed there vs sveet the only part seemed to be edges but he was G&W aND G&W would have really bad problems on PF or MC edges same for marth and who ever esle.

 

[Ace55]

With your logic xbombr we should have all stages legal since you get a chance to switch characters after the stage choice. If someone CPs temple and you don't choose fox you're not playing to win, which is true. However the mayority of stages are banned to make sure all sets don't turn into said fox dittos.
But if you want to play and see Fox dittos the whole time (and force people to play him or lose) then by all means host a tourney with your rules. Just don't expect people who aren't fox mains to come. Since you just made the rest of the cast nonviable to use against the opponents CP.


Plank your style of posting will certainly convince people

Spoiler

that you're an *ss.

 

[Smasher89]

IMO IC>Fox on corneria this is why:

Pros:
No Nana gimps as on other smaller stages

You can mostly (except in one scenario, with involves for the fox taking the risk of getting hit by a laser, he needs to take a planeride to be safe) force fox to approach ICs.

HARD HITTING PUNISH when you get the grab, which you´ll get oppoturnitys to get.
A wall if you get the lead, that isn´t possible to infinite on for some reason (the tilt)...

Cons: Some free lasers and in NTSC, quick usmash kills, uthrow upair is also dangerous.

Camping foxes can be predicted atleast in ICs case and therefore be punished


In NTSC he is supposed to be harder to beat so I'm not sure about it since it's a bit different, but in PAL i like to counterpick corneria against foxes to get wins against players thinking it's a free win. (currently working on learning it soo good that fox being the best on it will be questioned =) )

 

[xbombr]

With your logic xbombr we should have all stages legal since you get a chance to switch characters after the stage choice. If someone CPs temple and you don't choose fox you're not playing to win, which is true. However the mayority of stages are banned to make sure all sets don't turn into said fox dittos.
But if you want to play and see Fox dittos the whole time (and force people to play him or lose) then by all means host a tourney with your rules. Just don't expect people who aren't fox mains to come. Since you just made the rest of the cast nonviable to use against the opponents CP.


Plank your style of posting will certainly convince people

Spoiler

that your an *ss.

I never said all stages should be legal. My point is that stages that don't have inherent randomness and unfairness about them shouldn't be banned. Banning a stage because a character is dominant on it is wrong. There is a reason that they're called counterpicks. Some characters can pick that stage to counter who they're up against.

If you lose a game purely because of a stage your character isn't good on, then you deserved to lose that game because you didn't choose a character that could win there. Is the competitive scene a test of one's skill or is it a test of one's skill in an overly officiated atmosphere with the sole intention of making every character viable?

Having floats banned doesn't make low or mid tiers any more viable against Fox. You're still leaving out 50% of the cast or more. What's happening is that rules are being made that are targetted at a small portion of the high tier cast that people enjoy to play so that they can be viable against superior characters. These rules don't benefit all characters or even most characters. Yes, captain falcon is fun as hell to play....on a flat stage, that doesn't move, has no more than 3 platforms, and no walk off edges.

Captain Falcon wouldn't be anywhere near his position on the tier list now if all those stages were banned. "But xbombr, that's unfair. Flat stages with minimal obstruction are the most fair stages out there!" Sure you think that if you play a character who combos well. Let's take a look at a character who doesn't combo well. Say... Bowser. Any match up involving captain falcon, bowser, and unobstructed flat is sure to be onesided. For all you Bowsers out there, I'm sure you'd like to see FD and Dreamland banned from play, I'm sure. You'd like something like Green Greens to be in play, that way CF can't really kll you since his only vertical kill move is his upsmash. The blocks on the side of the stage can stop CF from running around and comboing like crazy. Bowser might actually be able to kill CF with an UpB at a reasonable % compared to like...never being able to kill him at all without a BAir gimp or something. The problem is that this gameplay isn't as exciting or fun as skillfully executed combos that span the entire stage and often end a stock. Competitive and exciting/fun aren't the same thing. There is no competitive reason that PF should be banned. There are fun/excitement reasons though.

Wanna counter Jigglypuff? Let's get some stages with walk off ledges and low ceilings (like Onett) so her recovery doesn't mean anything.

You might find out that Fox isn't that great on every stage if you bring back some of the more obscure ones. He might even have an autoloss on a few of them to make up for PF (which isn't an autowin, imo).

If you don't want to watch camping and Fox dittos, then just say so. PF is inherently fair since it's on a set path and has no random elements. Seel should be considered a ledge and reasonable players don't walk off ledges unless they have a good reason to. Getting gayed by PF is just laziness. Most people have refused to learn it or a character who does well there. There is plenty to learn about this game, tightening up the ruleset will just diminish what's left to learn in the metagame.

 

[EPsilon933]

I claim to not be a not gay player. Here's my opinionated list of legal stages

BattleField

It's the most fair stage in the game. It doesn't have much which hurts or hinders many characters, except Fox/Falco a bit. You can't hug a wall to change the timing of your up-B during recovery. But that's a good thing because Falco/Fox already **** enough to begin with. It's good to nerf them a bit without the need for PAL.

So fair. No contest it's the fairest stage list of them all.

 

[Plairnkk]

Plank your style of posting will certainly convince people that you're an *ss.

Some people get themselves into trouble drinking and driving

Some people get themselves into trouble drinking and dialing

I get myself into trouble drinking and posting

:-D

 

[iamthemicrowave]

lol @ plank raging.

armada why didnt you include KJ64??

 

[Smasher89]

Kj64 is like worse then corneria when it comes to camping :/

 

[TemPesT-]

i always thought corneria and MC were complimentary stages, like they each help different parts of the cast, but if one goes then both should go for sure.

does that make sense?

 

[pockyD]

i always thought corneria and MC were complimentary stages, like they each help different parts of the cast, but if one goes then both should go for sure.

does that make sense?

that makes no sense, because there are characters that are disadvantaged or advantaged on both

a stage is either fair enough or it isn't; there's no such thing as 'X character gets stage A, but Y character gets stage B"; that's complete nonsense for all characters that aren't X or Y

 

[Armada]

Slox: That would be a good ruleset if you asking me.
But neutrals only is ok for me.

Skler: What the hell are you talking about?
KJ64 a good peach stage?
Not even close.

On of the worst stage for her its impossible to win with her if someone camping her.

iamthemicrowave: Too much camping.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I never said all stages should be legal. My point is that stages that don't have inherent randomness and unfairness about them shouldn't be banned. Banning a stage because a character is dominant on it is wrong. There is a reason that they're called counterpicks. Some characters can pick that stage to counter who they're up against.

If you lose a game purely because of a stage your character isn't good on, then you deserved to lose that game because you didn't choose a character that could win there. Is the competitive scene a test of one's skill or is it a test of one's skill in an overly officiated atmosphere with the sole intention of making every character viable?

Having floats banned doesn't make low or mid tiers any more viable against Fox. You're still leaving out 50% of the cast or more. What's happening is that rules are being made that are targetted at a small portion of the high tier cast that people enjoy to play so that they can be viable against superior characters. These rules don't benefit all characters or even most characters. Yes, captain falcon is fun as hell to play....on a flat stage, that doesn't move, has no more than 3 platforms, and no walk off edges.

Captain Falcon wouldn't be anywhere near his position on the tier list now if all those stages were banned. "But xbombr, that's unfair. Flat stages with minimal obstruction are the most fair stages out there!" Sure you think that if you play a character who combos well. Let's take a look at a character who doesn't combo well. Say... Bowser. Any match up involving captain falcon, bowser, and unobstructed flat is sure to be onesided. For all you Bowsers out there, I'm sure you'd like to see FD and Dreamland banned from play, I'm sure. You'd like something like Green Greens to be in play, that way CF can't really kll you since his only vertical kill move is his upsmash. The blocks on the side of the stage can stop CF from running around and comboing like crazy. Bowser might actually be able to kill CF with an UpB at a reasonable % compared to like...never being able to kill him at all without a BAir gimp or something. The problem is that this gameplay isn't as exciting or fun as skillfully executed combos that span the entire stage and often end a stock. Competitive and exciting/fun aren't the same thing. There is no competitive reason that PF should be banned. There are fun/excitement reasons though.

Wanna counter Jigglypuff? Let's get some stages with walk off ledges and low ceilings (like Onett) so her recovery doesn't mean anything.

You might find out that Fox isn't that great on every stage if you bring back some of the more obscure ones. He might even have an autoloss on a few of them to make up for PF (which isn't an autowin, imo).

If you don't want to watch camping and Fox dittos, then just say so. PF is inherently fair since it's on a set path and has no random elements. Seel should be considered a ledge and reasonable players don't walk off ledges unless they have a good reason to. Getting gayed by PF is just laziness. Most people have refused to learn it or a character who does well there. There is plenty to learn about this game, tightening up the ruleset will just diminish what's left to learn in the metagame.

wait let me get this straight hyrule is fair because there is nothing random about it and if you lose it's your fault for not picking falco/fox??? Walk off stages are total bull s*** b-throw equals death and you can death at what 29%??? what if sheik camps one side vs falcon? that is clearly impossible to winif he doesn't approach he gets needled and if he does f-tilt to grab to b-throw. you can't fight that. Also stages shouldn't force you to change your chacter If you main non puff/fox does that mean sorry but f*** you or something?

basically what gives us ALL stages or whatever stage basically does is forces us to know stages NOT match-upsseeing how most stages premote gay unstopable camping it is basically banning 90% of the cast. I have a question what if you main roy and fox takes you to HT? is it your fault for being a ******? If I pick falco on ice mountain and spam lasers and dair vs Dk does that mean it's your fault for sucking?

No f*** that your logic is worse than a bear that keeps wlaking into a door. what I think.


neutrals
YS
FoD
PS
FD
DL64
BF

counterpicks
KJ64
ranibow ride
brinstar
brinstar depths

each person bans 2 stages they don't like.

this stage list helps but DOESN'T break anyoneit doesn't make a > match-up turn to a >>> like on PF.

 

[mastermoo420]

lol ICG you just love Brinstar Depths.

 

[Plairnkk]

wait let me get this straight hyrule is fair because there is nothing random about it and if you lose it's your fault for not picking falco/fox??? Walk off stages are total bull s*** b-throw equals death and you can death at what 29%??? what if sheik camps one side vs falcon? that is clearly impossible to winif he doesn't approach he gets needled and if he does f-tilt to grab to b-throw. you can't fight that. Also stages shouldn't force you to change your chacter If you main non puff/fox does that mean sorry but f*** you or something?

basically what gives us ALL stages or whatever stage basically does is forces us to know stages NOT match-upsseeing how most stages premote gay unstopable camping it is basically banning 90% of the cast. I have a question what if you main roy and fox takes you to HT? is it your fault for being a ******? If I pick falco on ice mountain and spam lasers and dair vs Dk does that mean it's your fault for sucking?

No f*** that your logic is worse than a bear that keeps wlaking into a door. what I think.


neutrals
YS
FoD
PS
FD
DL64
BF

counterpicks
KJ64
ranibow ride
brinstar
brinstar depths

each person bans 2 stages they don't like.

this stage list helps but DOESN'T break anyoneit doesn't make a > match-up turn to a >>> like on PF.

brinstar depths is silly, so take that out. PS needs to be a counterpick since 5 stages is necessary for stage striking (or 7)

now you have....oh wait you have the mbr stage list! lol

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

What's wrong with BD? better than PF/MC/captain caveman.

Hey I don't like only banning neutrals it sucks neutrals are like family to us.

overall I like the set-up but we should ban whatever and add BD.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Tero you forgot Green Greens! That's the BEST fox stage! Well, except maybe Onett and Temple.

Armada, Corneria is banned/was banned for pound 4. Same with Mute City. Fox had one great CP stage (RC) and one good one (PS). Peach had two great ones (Brinstar was legal there wasn't it, as was KJ64).

You forgot YI: Pipes.
Walk-off edge with a slant, a breeding ground for laser camping, and the second lowest ceiling in the game.


May I please see a video of a Fox playing hit and run on Pokefloats as proof/evidence?

 

[N64]

I don't understand arguments focused on balancing characters to eachother through a stagelist. Considering the whole cast, this should be an impossibility. Even considering the top 7 chars (and ignoring the rest of the "not tournament viable" cast, which I don't agree with randomly attempting to gimp them further) and the then 21 non-ditto matchups that occur, you won't end up with a "balanced" stagelist. A stagelist isn't meant to level the playing field for character selection. Indeed, the only purpose that seems sensible to me is to attempt to ensure that the more skilled player is the victor. And to clarify, I don't necessarily mean pure technical skill, but a combination of precise execution, intelligent decisions, and overall competative competance. To ensure this, it seems two main things are red-flags for stages.

1. Random influential elements. If the victor is to be the most skilled, having a random influential element can sway things away from this. If this randomness doesn't have much effect, it can be ignored, but the more prevalent it is the more it matters.

2. Overpowering tactics. If someone can take a char to a stage and through use of one tactic essentially get a free win against the rest of the cast, then that's overpowering and tends to centralize gameplay and is overall non-competative. regardless of the skill of the other player, they have no reasonable response against this other than to switch to the same char and abuse the same tactic.

That's pretty much it for qualifiers to ban stages. This often comes off as "gay" or "noob" because randomly dying to a bomb or having a peach downsmash-camp the rock on Kongo Jungle are frustrating occurances that seem (and i believe are) counter-competative. They're also generally unpopular because people want to feel that if they win it's because they were better than their opponent, and if they didn't then they weren't.

Edit: Also Skler, I was super sad when MK2 stopped being on CP for teams, Donkachu was sooo good there Needed a ban, that stage is silly

 

[TemPesT-]

that makes no sense, because there are characters that are disadvantaged or advantaged on both

a stage is either fair enough or it isn't; there's no such thing as 'X character gets stage A, but Y character gets stage B"; that's complete nonsense for all characters that aren't X or Y

that's what i meant... <_< it's good for certain characters on one stage, and terrible for the others.

don't get me wrong i dislike both stages, and i like the current rule set, but what i was trying to say was like if you brought back on of those 2 stages, it would seem unfair to the characters that used the other stage as there counterpick...

 

[dch111]

May I please see a video of a Fox playing hit and run on Pokefloats as proof/evidence?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ8l-XQQ1Yg

Be sure to watch till the very end. It's quite enjoyable.

 

[Ben-Teezee]

Plank youre an idiot. Insulting me doesnt change the points i make in my post. It also doesnt change how your post is completely biased nonsense. But whatever your response just proves to me how ur the one that doesnt know anything about anything. It sucks that u ran Pound4 so everyone just meat rides u instead of thinking for themselves.

N64 i agree with you 100%. however the problem is smash is that no ONE stage avoids having that overpowering tactic. if fox can camp you on PF, he can camp you on DL just the same or even worse for some chars. FD's overpowering tactic is chaingrabs. whether its IC's, Marth, Shiek, Dr Mario, someone can chaingrab someone on FD. Are you gonna tell me that the more skilled player always wins when it comes to FD? how bout pokemon stadium? plank made it a counterpick for pound4, that must mean that the stage is not "fair" enough to be a neutral. The overpowering tactic there must be running around with spacies, i mean why else would ppl AUTOBAN it vs spacies?. DL gives the same advantage to fox and has become one of the main strikes/ban vs Fox cuz most chars just cant catch him there If you dont think fox can camp you just as well on DL as any CP stage you havent played a campy fox.

n64 now let me ask you this, do you think smash should be played on stages that absolutely do not interrupt the flow of the game or do you think thats part of smash? keep in mind stage transformations on PS, shy guys on YS, Wind on DL, all affect just as much as lava on brinstar, and the movement of RC and PF. and then tell me at what point these "interruptions" (most of which 100% predictable) become too much and become ban worthy?]

edit: like i said in my very first post (finally the link shows up) Spam timed out someone (according to the date added 2 years ago) and ppl will never let it go. *sigh*

 

[dch111]

N64 i agree with you 100%. however the problem is smash is that no ONE stage avoids having that overpowering tactic. if fox can camp you on PF, he can camp you on DL just the same or even worse for some chars.

In those stages Fox can get backed into a corner, or have his options limited significantly. On PF, he can do this forever without getting backed into anywhere. To give a clearer picture, consider Hyrule Temple's circle strategy (run around the central "island" with a faster character). Each float can basically be treated as such an island, and a circle strategy can be employed around each. It wouldn't be true if the floats didn't have other floats underneath/around them (so you couldn't run around them), but unfortunately the stage was designed just this way, and there is always just the right number of floats around to lead a unending goose chase.

edit: like i said in my very first post (finally the link shows up) Spam timed out someone (according to the date added 2 years ago) and ppl will never let it go. *sigh*

Well, it's pretty significant. It should be quite deducible from the video that with a bit more refinement the strategy can be made virtually unbeatable. The pattern of the floats is the same every time, after all. Peach vs Fox would only be the beginning.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I personally like to eliminate as much random as possible, it leaves the game up to the players, characters, and how they skillfully utilize the stage. getting lucky happens....but it should be lucky cuz fox side b and died or i accidentally hit l and stick teched.

onett-hell no. too many individual problems to be abused. cars, walls, walkoffs. its a combination of characters that have ability to walk off kill but fox literally kills have the cast and can keep you locked in the middle. it honesty destroys the competitive nature of melee. gimps and low percent kills are part of the game but onett is a combination of ****ty (not alot of thought into this, truly a bad stage). the game should not result to cheap auto kills.

corneria-I had a huge argument with sw about this. all the things I don't like about the stage aren't real reasons to ban it. camping/planking can be done by samus/marth/fox/falco/puff/sheik/pika to some effective degree using the fin. imo the random ships is the only reason to ban. its a non neutral hazard that is applied to a player. small but its an avoidable random occurence. by avoidable I mean we should ban it to preserve competitive integrity between players.

japes-I thought klaps were timed? they hit an area and don't attack players directly. imo this is what a cp should be. for example:

with m2 I can now more effectively tech chase on the center platform because of its size. I can live longer vs a sheik fair with a good horizontal recovery. the only thing im iffy about is the ohko.those scare me a bit, I think we should test this stage out and see how much klaps affect(skew, if at all) game andif ppl can reliably tech them in game.

mute city-iffy in its defense, the random cars do not target players, they just take up space. I honestly don't care if puff/peach are good here. I think this is where a low lag up b high mobility low tier could possibly shine. if you can "OK" the random cars then this is a good cp against recovery types. imo it promotes diversity in many ways. irrelevant tho as diversity has noting to do with competitive fair smash.(extreme lack of diversity is another story).

peach castle-teams, it haas a good dynamic about it. I see this as fine, your teammate and bb
should end any fox infinites. the rules for teams as far as what stages are acceptable should be more lax since camping and infinites are avoidable and preventable/stoppable. singles, the wall is too strong. easily abused by fox. don't be dumb about this.

we should try to keep as much of the game as possible. we already dropped items, most stages, and low tiers lol. but we should still think about the game as a whole. which leads me into floats.

fox will abuse this stage for sure. but thats not really the best reason to ban a stage. fox really is good everywhere. but what is floats a cp to? i don't see any other characters benefitting from this. a style of hit and run, but we have rainbow and imo that stage is pretty much the same type and less extreme. there is no reason to add another side scrolling timed non random stage to the list.

frankly, it will destroy cp against fox. its ok to promote other styles, characters, recoveries, dimensions, etc but having floats is over kill. in wa, we have rainbow,and corneria legal and stadium as a neutral. I played against tophs fox. I took a game...but then I was saddened by my inability to keep his adv to a minimum. i only got 1 ban lol.

cps are great, they make some styles, or characters more viable-but lets choose stages for a purpose. I think it would be bad for the scene if we added a bunch of stages just because individually there wasn't much reason to ban them. I know thats its not completely fair, or consistent but honestly its just hard to please everyone. people should be a little more open minded and stop worrying about logistics as much and really think about how that would affect the scene as far as tourney goes. its pretty obvious done wide scale testing is in order. we could all be wrong.

(hard to write on a mobile touch with no key board.)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Im glad some people are posting their opinion on the stages! I haven't gotten the chance to read every post, but i like the discussion so far. N64 knows where its at for sure.

Requirements to be banned
My analysis of the stage

Is the camping strategy on corneria unbeatable?
Is the random element on corneria enough to change the outcome of the game?

I think the camping strategy is strong but nowhere near unbeatable because there is no circle. I think the random element would be the best argument to banning the stage, but i would like someone to propose that argument because i can't think of it. I would also like to know information about if the laser shots follow any sort of timer and if they will shoot a certain player (like how dreamland will blow wind at a certain player)


Is there an unbeatable strategy on Mute City?
Is the random element enough to change the outcome of the match?

I don't see an argument for either. Both players must fight and i see no possible way that the stage can change the fight so it is actually un-lose-able for any character. The stage itself follows a rotation and the random element (cars) are consistent even though they are random.

 

[Ben-Teezee]

@ DCH111: Speaking as someone who has pokefloats completely memorized (cuz many ppl who are arguing in this thread havent even taken the time to memorize lava patterns on brinstar let alone PF) This stage does not promote as much circling as ur making it seem. First off the stage has no ledges, Extremely rewarding actually hitting fox, plus the low blast zones means you dont even have to get him to high % (examples vidjos first kill i think he faired him at like 80 and he died) to actually kill him.

I really disagree with using the vidjo match as an example for a couple of reasons:

a) ur assuming at the time that the fox was a worse player (whether he was or wasnt is completely subjective)
b) the match is one match in what 10 years of melee?
c) PF is not the only stage vidjo has been timed out on, He was also timed out by PC outta SPITE for camping PC to death the match b4. (using as an example that players have timed him out b4 so i dont see why this is like OMG vidjo got timed out)
d) vidjo is naturally a campy player which made the match way more about who could camp better (obviously i think we all give the advantage to foxs lasers). not about who played better.
e) also spam in no way looked ubeatable in that game, if anything vidjo looked like he was playing terrible. Did anyone watch that match and say dam i cant catch that fox?

watching the first 2 mins of that match it was obviously where it was going cuz vidjo had no plans of approaching and spam knew the stage.

-Many of the pokemon in PF are not platforms that you can drop through, as such fox has to waste his jump, double jump, or even side b to get to the other pokemon.

when the wooper is on the stage i can see the circle strategy ur talking about mainly around snorlax but the rest of the time fox is in a very vulnerable position.


kaostar: i agree with alot of what you put. however i dont think we should ever use fox as the char when we're discussing how many stages should be on. Like you said u were unable to keep his advantage to a minimum not just because of corneria, but because of RC, and PS, not to mention YS, and DL if he likes camping or even FD (unless hes fighting a good grabbing char.)

again my solution: turn on corneria, floats, japes, mute, and allow 2 bans for some defense, different players/chars/ and playstyles should be able to use the mechanics and stages to their advantage.

 

[DJ Nintendo]

I agree with Bentizzle. Bring those stages back!

 

[EPsilon933]

again my solution: turn on corneria, floats, japes, mute, and allow 2 bans for some defense, different players/chars/ and playstyles should be able to use the mechanics and stages to their advantage.

Yay! Someone else agrees that a 2 ban might be a good idea.

 

[WarriorKnight]

Yay! Someone else agrees that a 2 ban might be a good idea.

Yea, I was discussing this with some ppl earlier.

2 stage bans is perfect and will keep everyone happy and will make up for more counterpick stages being put back on.

 

[KAOSTAR]

@benteezy-the reason using fox is important is because he if at all would be the one abusing the layout of the stage. the competitive balance is what people are looking at and fox would be the ***** to **** it up.

fox being good on just about all stages is irrelevant. I don't think we need floats because we have rainbow. I see rainbow/floats as fox cp. lol who else goes there with expectation of winning? i don't see a specific problem with floats, I just don't want to give fox another option. his camp game is improved more than anything else any other character has on floats/rainbow. rainbow is a bit more stable and I think other characters are at a little bit less of a disadvantage. the more abstract a stage is terrain wise, the more fox's mobility pushes him over the top.

sveet-the honest truth about corneria is that the random elements are minor, but can **** somebody over under the right circumstances. it would be something outside the players control. fox benefits a **** load with the low ceiling, once again overall he benefits the most. ban this ****.

im ok with the random making MC banned, but alot more characters benefit from this being legal. I think that out weighs the consistent random cars. I think cars that are random but you can count on to be there(predictable), even utilize if you ****, are less of a problem than a few random shots fired at a random player at a random time.(unpredictable)

if other characters/styles don't benefit we should leave it banned. floats/corneria should absolutely stay banned, or switch floats with cruise.

edit: I can agree with the 2 cp bans 1 neutral. or two bans, but I don't think having corneria, rainbow, and floats is a good idea. at least 1 of those should stay banned. that way if you are worried about fox you can at least get ***** on a neutral stage. then everybody is happy....

of course I hope you guys thought about DSR and the fact that 4 stages are now gone, potentially from neutrals leaving battle field lmao

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If you ban a stage only because a character is "too good" on it, you are only hurting the metagame by stopping creativity and limiting strategies. Marth is decent on corneria, better than any other CP stage. Chu was known to CP corneria vs spacies. Wes used to CP corneria all the time. Its not just a fox or falco stage, every character in the cast can play on it. They are fighting on the stage. This isn't hyrule where if you pick fox and run away laser all game you have 0% chance of losing. No matter what, the person who uses the stage and plays the matchup better will win on the stage. Nobody remembers Pound3 with mango being m2k on corneria?

Come on guys. A stage should only be banned if it is competitively unfair.

 

[EPsilon933]

I'm going to host tournaments at my college, with changes to rules like:


5 or 6 minute timer


Stage List

Neutral
FD
BF
DL
YS
FoD

Counter
MC
Brinstar
Corneria
PS
KJ64


Double Bans


PAL version


Hell, I might even be able to host barlw tournaments and try adding heavy gravity and reflect status to the rules. We need to always keep experimenting, finding and testing new ideas. There is never a perfectly correct answer in Smash but there should never be a moment where we stop trying to find it. Don't be afraid of risks and chance.

 

[pockyD]

i'd equate a character being 'too good' with the stage being 'competitively unfair'

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i'd equate a character being 'too good' with the stage being 'competitively unfair'

I wouldn't.

Competitively Fair- Game outcome is within players' control and no strategy is unbeatable.

 

[pockyD]

then i equate a character being 'too good' as that character possessing an unbeatable strategy

 

[KAOSTAR]

ok, for corneria then. what are your thoughts on the random aspects of it?

Im not against corneria, but is it really legit to have to go into tourney and know that no matter what you do, your character is guaranteed to lose a game because you have to play on rainbow, floats, or corneria. Even if you get two stage bans.

I think it would make alot of characters less viable vs fox than they already are.

rainbow(or floats)-brinstar-kongo-MC-japes- stadium is a legit cp list imo. plays to different strengths without giving fox more than he needs and it doesnt require two bans or anything to be changed. Its more stages, but not too many imo. In a way its also a compromise. Alot of ppl dont like cp stages at all, but alot of ppl think they are important.

My question is what are you looking to gain by adding corneria floats onett other than 3 more stages. (the ones that I dont see being viable.)Why do you think other characters would gain something?

 

[EPsilon933]

rainbow(or floats)-brinstar-kongo-MC-japes- stadium is a legit cp list imo.

They're not stages. They're obstacle courses to play tag on. But this is just an imo.

You haven't been camped on that stage in a 1v1. So broken and boring. Ruins the game for players and spectators. I've heard the problem is gone in teams though.

Also, Melee requires skill, far more than character selections.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

then i equate a character being 'too good' as that character possessing an unbeatable strategy

you mean you equate a character having an unbeatable strategy as being too good. That means you have no problem with corneria since there is no unbeatable strategy.

A = B
B = A
~B
QED ~A

 

[Ben-Teezee]

@ kao- the main problem youre having is that youre looking at every stage is if fox is ALWAYS there. marth, samus, plumbers, typically any char who can up-b to the fin with a sweet spot are more than competitive on Corneria. the reason you add these stages is because sometimes you need a variation of the same mechanics to match your playstyle.

any char can take jiggs to corneria because it takes away her strong early kills off the sides and gives you strong early kills against her. rainbow gives you the early kills on her but she still benefits from her great air mobility and quick kills. I think Corneria should be on just as a low ceiling alternative to YS vs jiggs.

Idk why u think getting beat by a fox on a neutral is better than a CP, theyre ALL in his favor. if u think hes gonna beat u on YS chances are hes gonna beat u on PF too, hell in a tournament 2 days ago eggm+ swift took me to kongo in teams, and won. IF KONGO is a FOX counterpick, theres nothing you can do about his ability to be good on every stage. you have to look at it from just a competitively fair perspective :D