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Mute music.
-
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Rebanning stages
- Thread starter Fortress | Sveet
- Start date
Bones0
Smash Legend
To me, it just doesn't make sense to unban stages that players will just insta-ban if they win the first match anyway. If I win against a Jiggs, I should have a choice between banning Dream Land or Kongo Jungle. They are both balanced stages that no characters have EXTREME advantages on. But this isn't the case when you make Brinstar and Mute City legal. I would insta-ban Mute City every time I play a Jiggs or Peach because it is such an extremely unfair stage it would be stupid not to. Sure, it isn't auto-win, but it is far from what most counterpicks are for most characters in most matchups. People say everyone is just hating on floaties because they are getting better, but the reality is most of the gay fast-faller/spacies stages have already been banned. Should we allow Hyrule Temple where Fox players can laser and run the entire time? You could chalk that up to "knowing the stage" and having the foresight to ban it, but what happens when they go Termina Bay and do the same crap?
As far as claiming social inertia is the reason people are starting to ban CPs, I'd say that's a bit backwards. The only reason people are still playing crap stages are because they've always been allowed and people freak out when you start changing rules, even if they agree with most of the changes. From what I can tell, the large majority of players do not play on CPs because they are stupid to play on. You never see people play friendlies on CPs because it's pretty obvious the match isn't even close to fair, and matches should be as fair as possible. CPing never made sense to me, though. I don't see why we don't just strike until there are 3 stages left, then play those three.
This would be the stage list:
BF
DL
FD
FoD
KJ64
PS
YS
In a hypothetical match of me vs. a Peach, the striking would go something like this (idk how you would make striking fair for 7 stages instead of 5; I'm guessing you start off with 1221? Or would it be 12211221? That's 8 strikes, lmao. How about 122112? That seems right. Not important to get the point across, so I'll just do 121212):
Bones strikes DL.
Peach strikes FD.
Bones strikes KJ64.
Peach strikes YS.
Bones strikes FoD.
Peach strikes PS.
First match is BF.
If I lose, we play PS. If Peach wins, we play FoD.
If I win Game 1 on BF and lose Game 2 on FoD, we play PS. If I lose Game 1 on BF and win Game 2 on PS, we play FoD.
This type of striking also eliminates the whole DSR debate. The only flaw this might have is you cannot choose the second stage based on how the first match went, but that can easily be fixed by allowing the player who lost the first match to initiate a restriking of the stages.
i can has win?
As far as claiming social inertia is the reason people are starting to ban CPs, I'd say that's a bit backwards. The only reason people are still playing crap stages are because they've always been allowed and people freak out when you start changing rules, even if they agree with most of the changes. From what I can tell, the large majority of players do not play on CPs because they are stupid to play on. You never see people play friendlies on CPs because it's pretty obvious the match isn't even close to fair, and matches should be as fair as possible. CPing never made sense to me, though. I don't see why we don't just strike until there are 3 stages left, then play those three.
This would be the stage list:
BF
DL
FD
FoD
KJ64
PS
YS
In a hypothetical match of me vs. a Peach, the striking would go something like this (idk how you would make striking fair for 7 stages instead of 5; I'm guessing you start off with 1221? Or would it be 12211221? That's 8 strikes, lmao. How about 122112? That seems right. Not important to get the point across, so I'll just do 121212):
Bones strikes DL.
Peach strikes FD.
Bones strikes KJ64.
Peach strikes YS.
Bones strikes FoD.
Peach strikes PS.
First match is BF.
If I lose, we play PS. If Peach wins, we play FoD.
If I win Game 1 on BF and lose Game 2 on FoD, we play PS. If I lose Game 1 on BF and win Game 2 on PS, we play FoD.
This type of striking also eliminates the whole DSR debate. The only flaw this might have is you cannot choose the second stage based on how the first match went, but that can easily be fixed by allowing the player who lost the first match to initiate a restriking of the stages.
i can has win?
john!
Smash Hero
ban fox, unban every stage that's banned thanks to fox, have a more fun and diverse game. everyone wins except techskill***s.
Bones0
Smash Legend
If Fox is really the ONLY reason a stage is banned, you might as well just allow the stage, and ban Fox players from CPing those specific stages.
john!
Smash Hero
i was being sort of facetious lol, i think stages that are banned due to fox would be banned due to falco/falcon/another speedy character if fox was banned. and if we say things like "fox can't counterpick corneria, peach can't counterpick mute, etc." then what are counterpicks good for anyway, if not shifting the match to your advantage?
throw my vote in for stage striking, 7 neutrals, single ban, no counterpick stages.
in fact, i can think of some items that would be more fair allowing than having stages like ONETT legal.
throw my vote in for stage striking, 7 neutrals, single ban, no counterpick stages.
in fact, i can think of some items that would be more fair allowing than having stages like ONETT legal.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Petition to legalize Mr. Saturn! :O
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What's the point for Peach players? She pulls one out once every 300 down-b's on average.
Is Peach vs Fox on PS any less unbalanced?
i don't think so
So it CAN be surmounted if you're the superior player and you have the experience necessary. What's the problem then?
Hell, maybe future experience will indicate that the matchups aren't as skewed on those stages as they appear at first glance and Peaches won't always want to take people to Mute when it isn't banned. Similarly, what if you're just really good on Mute and you WANT Peach to take you there, because your experience and skill gives you an edge? I let people take me to Rainbow Cruise all the time because I win there a lot. I ban the neutral that give the other guy a big advantage because I know they'll have experience at it, and let them try to take me to an "autowin" counterpick where I have more practice than they do.
But hey, what do I know?
Hell, maybe future experience will indicate that the matchups aren't as skewed on those stages as they appear at first glance and Peaches won't always want to take people to Mute when it isn't banned. Similarly, what if you're just really good on Mute and you WANT Peach to take you there, because your experience and skill gives you an edge? I let people take me to Rainbow Cruise all the time because I win there a lot. I ban the neutral that give the other guy a big advantage because I know they'll have experience at it, and let them try to take me to an "autowin" counterpick where I have more practice than they do.
But hey, what do I know?
xbombr
Smash Ace
This is still unfair since it singles out certain players and creates a competitive unfairness. I'd be down with 2 bans if someone wanted to like autoban something vs. Fox, but w/e.
If Fox is the ONLY reason a stage is banned, then it shouldn't be banned. If Fox is the reason a stage is banned + a bunch of other crap reasons that don't make logical sense then it should still be unbanned. (I.E. Seel glitch when PS is still legal, was even nuetral for 90% of smash's existence, and has just as many problems. In fact, I was down thrown by Marth into the tree and feel straight through the stage when I was playing Falco and it cost me a full stock, and the match, since it happened from 0%.)
Some of our neutrals have more inherent randomness and luck involved than BANNED stages. Randal saves can't be controlled all the time by the recovering player since you never know when you're going to be knocked offstage for sure (plus Ganon is totally dominant there and I'mma QQ about it), messed up crap from when the wind blows on DL, Shy guys, stage transformations on PS (it was neutral for a long long time and it's still legal), ect. The most random thing about PF can be completely avoided. One character being really good on a stage isn't enough to ban it. Fox isn't as unbeatable on PF as people QQ about. We know it's gay and you don't want to play there, grow up and deal with it. That's not a good reason to ban a stage.
Also, if every tournament is 100% FD and we play hacked Melee, Taj would win every time with black Mewtwo. For real.
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Yes so far.
May not exactly be true.
Randall moves at a set 20 second timer. I don't think that's random. If you know the Randall timing, you could alter the timing/movement on your recovery to land on Randall (situational, but possible). Killing knocked off the stage by your opponent isn't randomly timed.
Nothing on PokeFloats is random. Everything moves on a set timer.
PokeFloats and Rainbow Cruise aren't stages to fight on. They're playgrounds to play tag on.
Fun fact: There are four stages in Melee that involve no randomness whatsoever.
Final Destination
BattleField
Rainbow Cruise
PokeFloats
There's no randomness whatsoever on Brinstar. The lava has a set pattern.
There's no randomness in Yoshi's Island, Yoshi Story, Hyrule, Mushroom Kingdom and technically Mute City, though an argument can be made that the way the cars show up is random due to them being able to hit each other, the actual times they show up are the same every single time.
There's no randomness in Yoshi's Island, Yoshi Story, Hyrule, Mushroom Kingdom and technically Mute City, though an argument can be made that the way the cars show up is random due to them being able to hit each other, the actual times they show up are the same every single time.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
actually I think shy guys are random. but maybe itstimed idk. but either way I agree with whatever conclusion you are about to come to.
faith lol
Sorry that was actually supposed to be Yoshi Story 64 lol. Also im just pointing out that Epsilon is spreading false information.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
lol and I agree
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Sorry if all the details aren't perfect, hahaa. You got my point though, right?
BEES
Smash Lord
More legal stages + double bans is the correct solution.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
why? why do we need more stages? do you play fox?
BEES
Smash Lord
variety is the spice of life
and I don't play Fox competitively
and I don't play Fox competitively
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
if the reason isn't to promote a more deep and competitive experience then variety is stupid.
if variety was important just for the sake of having more we would use items and the whole stage list.
pockyD
Smash Legend
In many cases, the issue isn't "fox"; it's "the fastest character" by some definition of fastest, where banning fox on that stage would only lead to the 2nd best by that speed metric dominating the stage
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
we don't need more stages lol
the sillier the stage is, the dumber the gameplay gets
seriously like if you go on youtube and watch any of the most amazing matches in melee history, they're all on neutrals. and if you watch the stupidest matches you can find, you find stuff like lunin camping armada on poke floats. did armada win that match? yes. so poke floats isn't BROKEN, but it's ****ing stupid LOL
it just makes the game worse lol, and it's not fun
i had an entirely different view on this sort of thing half a year ago but i recently agreed to Big Blue in a tourney set and realized how utterly brainless playing on a lot of non-neutrals is >_>
It's the same kind of thing with banning items. if you turned items on, mango would still win every tournament. they wouldn't "break" or "ruin" the game. but they'd make the game a lot stupider
the sillier the stage is, the dumber the gameplay gets
seriously like if you go on youtube and watch any of the most amazing matches in melee history, they're all on neutrals. and if you watch the stupidest matches you can find, you find stuff like lunin camping armada on poke floats. did armada win that match? yes. so poke floats isn't BROKEN, but it's ****ing stupid LOL
it just makes the game worse lol, and it's not fun
i had an entirely different view on this sort of thing half a year ago but i recently agreed to Big Blue in a tourney set and realized how utterly brainless playing on a lot of non-neutrals is >_>
It's the same kind of thing with banning items. if you turned items on, mango would still win every tournament. they wouldn't "break" or "ruin" the game. but they'd make the game a lot stupider
xbombr
Smash Ace
So the stage stresses mobility? Boohoo Ganon isn't high tier there.
Other stages stress **** combos and/or platform camping. Is it fair to the characters that don't have **** combos and platform camping games that these stages are legal? No...
Just because your character is bottom tier on a certain stage, doesn't mean that they aren't top tier on another. This is the reason that there are bans and counterpicks. Banning PF crosses the line of balancing the game for competitive play and moves into overbalancing the game so people don't QQ about losing when they think that they deserve to win. Learn how to play different characters ffs, actually act like you want to win and learn multiple characters, or even every character. ****, this game has been played competitively since like...2002/2003? lrn2play everyone. This way you know their strengths and their weaknesses. You can use them to get you out of jams and/or help you come up with strats for countering each character.
There is a reason that players like M2K and Mango are amazing. They can play a tournament level everything and hence can counter tournament level everythings. They know the situations and what each character can do and wants to do from each situation. This is how you predict people's actions. It's the core of gameplay in our metagame. People are QQ'ing because they don't care enough to learn how to play every aspect of the game and they still want to win. "Ah ****, I think Floats is gay. Let's just ban it so I don't have to deal with it and make up **** about how Fox is unbeatable there and how I've lost countless sets because I've fallen through Seel." That's the throught process, it has nothing to do with balancing the game and anyone telling you otherwise is either full of **** or extremely gullible..
Perhaps I'm getting a little sidetracked, but tl;dr if you lost because you can't play a character and/or stage then you don't deserve to win.
Ben-Teezee
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2009
- Messages
- 152
So ur saying BUM sucks?
Bum was one of the best players in the US at the time, but i guess he shoulda counterpiced PS against 2 spacie players and a capt? what stage would you have taken them too if u played DK?
btw im :D @ the fact that ppl support 2 bans.
and to the person who said matches get dumber on CP, its only because ppl dont feel comfortable on CPs cuz they dont practice, if u played any CP as much as u play FD ud run circles around the map without a 2nd thought.
@ pocky the issue "IS" fox, hes considered by most to be the best character whos super fast and has an amazing projectile and is relatively easy to kill his opponents with guaranteed kills off his upthrow and waveshine. No other char that is that fast has a projectile that good and vice versa.(i still think hes overhyped, and he shouldnt decide what stages are on or not, most ppl see fox is their opponent and smile as opposed to seeing jiggs who currently has NO bad stage in this ruleset)
It still comes down to ppl are too lazy to argue the rules, the few ppl that do argue arent "important" enough for the TO's to care. Its ok eventually the rules will go down japan style where its just FD and DL/BF and the higher tier character will always win cuz theyre playing on a stage that furthers strengthens their character. and by then we'll all finally give in and quit melee :D
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Wobbles will you marry me?
edit- wooops new page.... dont mind me
edit2- nope, i stand by my statement.
edit- wooops new page.... dont mind me
edit2- nope, i stand by my statement.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
that was toph. in one of my earlier post he was the fox that I couldn't stop from cp me because of our stage list.
he def is mad gay with his cp when he wants to be.
different stages play to different strengths. why do we need floats and rainbow.
why another low ceiling stage?
if we already got it we don't need it again.
pockyD
Smash Legend
it's not about characters being nonviable; over half the characters are probably non-viable even on neutrals
it's about ONLY one or two characters being viable; if the stage puts you into a place where you either pick one specific character or lose to an opponent using that same character, then it is 'broken'
my argument wasn't that the stage might 'favor faster characters'; it was more that the hypothetical stage in question IS in favor of the FASTEST character by a large margin; being 3rd fastest doesn't help competitively in this situation because you're still 'too slow'
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Btw onett ceiling is lower than yoshis
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
its a terrible place and has lots of other issues meaning it should never be legal.
low ceiling on ys is fine.
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2008
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- 7,187
Pikachu Kills Captain Falcon at percent percents with an up smash, no DI nor stale moves.
Onett: 94%
Yoshi's Story: 84%
I measured this from the lowest part of the center floor (not floor blastline).
Some old stage height information I have. Numbers are based off of NTSC Fox's uncharged up smash against Captain Falcon, no DI nor stale moves. The percents are when he dies. I tested the up smashes on the center most parts of the stage on the main floor.
Neutrals
Yohsi's Story
96%
Pokemon Stadium
99%
Final Destination
101%
BattleFeild
105%
Fountain of Dreams
105%
Dream Land 64
117%
Counter pick
Green Greens
89%
Corneria
97%
Mute City
105%
Brinstar
106%
Kongo Jungle 64
115%
Jungle Japes
115%
Rainbow Cruise
It moves too much and it's too difficult to measure except for the boat part. But I got lazy and never bothered, ever.
Characer rankings of vertical KO resistance. Percents are for when they die at the lowest percent from NTSC Fox's fully charged up smash on Final Destination, no stale moves nor DI. (some PAL characters may have buffed/nerfed vertical KO resistances. PAL Fox has a nerfed up smash, so maybe I'll remeasure all of this wih Pikachu's up smash? One day...)
Jiglypuff: 31%
Mr. Game & Watch: 35%
Kirby: 38%
Pichu: 39%
Mewtwo: 42%
Zelda: 43%
Peach: 44%
Ice Climbers: 45% (tested on one Ice Climber)
Pikachu: 45%
Luigi: 48%
Ness: 49%
Marth: 50%
Samus: 50%
Doctor Mario: 50%
Mario: 50%
Young Link: 50%
Sheik: 52%
Roy: 53%
Fox: 56%
Yoshi: 56%
Link: 57%
Ganondorf: 58%
Bowser: 60%
Falco: 61%
Donkey Kong: 64%
Captain Falcon: 68%
dch111
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 472
How does it overbalance the game? And if you make things less balanced, how does that make wins any more deserved?
Of course people have learned to play. It is because we know much more about the characters and the stages and their strengths and weaknesses now that the current ruleset has evolved (albeit, supported by popularity, which is ultimately the deciding factor).
...
Yes..
You must think Sakurai designed this game perfectly for competition or something. And that everything is the player's problem, not the game's. It's been many years, like you said, and the game's aspects have been learned. If we didn't know these aspects, nothing would be banned, just like in the very beginning, when we didn't know any better.
Keep those assumptions coming. People don't support stage removals just because they've lost on a stage. Nobody's making up ****. And it has nothing to do with balancing the game? That just contradicts what you said earlier about overbalancing...
If the speed/camping is an issue, then DK64 should also be banned (I've started picking that stage, and got every match(3) to less then 15 seconds left, or a timeout, where in one case we had to replay a stock(since same % and stockammount) and getting the match to go to 11min+
I think I mentioned it earlier but as wobbles said he likes people counter[pick RC against him, I really like foxes pick corneria against me, since I'm sure that when I get more experience on it I'll be beating foxes there even more then now(and if I get the chance I often pick it against him), but I play pal though...
I think I mentioned it earlier but as wobbles said he likes people counter[pick RC against him, I really like foxes pick corneria against me, since I'm sure that when I get more experience on it I'll be beating foxes there even more then now(and if I get the chance I often pick it against him), but I play pal though...
xbombr
Smash Ace
Ok. I'm hesistant to explain this as it has been explained by at least one other person in this thread (Sveet).
The point is that we're balancing the game around tier lists. That's completely unfair. We're taking a flaw with the basic make up of the characters within the game and adjusting what stages are allowed to be played on using that information. If we REALLY wanted to balance competitive play in this way, then we would do it for every type of flaw that exists within the game. FD would be banned because of chaingrabbable characters. BF would be banned because it gimps characters who need a wall to recover properly. YS would be banned because floaties don't live there as long as other characters do. DL would be banned because characters with strong recoveries live there much longer than other characters do. FoD would be banned since it's varying platform height messes up things like SHL and comboing.
It goes on and on.
Seriously, honestly ask yourself this question: If Kirby or Pichu had an autowin stage, would anyone want to ban it for all of competitive play? (I still don't think that Fox has an autowin on PF, but this question is being asked as a check against if PF is being banned for competitive reasons, tier list balance reasons, or just because it's plain gay, which it is.) My answer is probably not because Pichu and Kirby have absolutely nothing going for them. So, in theory, the only reason PF is being banned is because Fox is the best character in the game.
It's not like it REALLY matters to me whether PF is legal or not, since I live in the MW where Icicle Mountain and Flat Zone are our core neutrals and Green Greens is widely accepted a CP. <3 MW. I'm just trying to address a problem within the community.
MC should be legal as well, imo. The biggest argument for that stage being banned is Peach and Jigglypuff are too good there. Again, this is balancing the game around the characters. If this stage is banned, BF should be too as it also messes up character's recoveries and Peach and Jiggs are immune to that. Everything else about MC is on a set path/timer. Just because a stage stresses something other than combo'ing, doesn't mean it's broken and needs to be banned. There are more aspects to this game than just showing off your tech skill and shining someone accross the stage and back before you upsmash them 25% after they could have already been killed.
We'd ban a Pichu/Kirby autowin stage because for whatever reason, if you can play those characters then you have a guaranteed win during a set. Either that or you have to learn one of the 4 matchups necessary to play on that stage. Doesn't matter what else the characters have going for them, it eliminates counter-pick strategy.
Even if Fox was a terrible character--imagine Pichu with lasers I guess, minus the self-damage--then we would STILL ban Hyrule because our ruleset means Fox has autowin there by tagging you with one laser and running. It turns the game into "never ever let Fox get the lead or he wins because you can't catch him."
The reason we want stages banned is NOT for the sake of balance, but avoiding pure brokenness. The game is, regardless of our stage choices, imbalanced. Character matchups are inherently skewed because of character properties, and those are in turn affected by stage properties.
We say right now that Fox is the best character in the game. If we only played on levels where he had disadvantages, he wouldn't be the best anymore. Instead, we'd have a new best character for that stage list. Is this better or worse? IMO, it's "neither." Doesn't really matter if there's a "best" character on a stage provided it's NOT autowin or degenerate; that's all that matters from a competitive standpoint.
You don't find it fun? There's lots of obnoxious **** in every game that you won't find entertaining to deal with, but if we want to ban stuff because it's not fun then we'd have no solid tournament standard because people would ban things they personally think are stupid. I think people are EXPECTED, as tournament players, to overcome challenges based on matchups and game mechanics, and prove you can beat all non-broken strategies in the game. Not get rid of stuff you just don't like.
If you don't like a majority of strategies in the game... maybe it's the wrong game for you?
Even if Fox was a terrible character--imagine Pichu with lasers I guess, minus the self-damage--then we would STILL ban Hyrule because our ruleset means Fox has autowin there by tagging you with one laser and running. It turns the game into "never ever let Fox get the lead or he wins because you can't catch him."
The reason we want stages banned is NOT for the sake of balance, but avoiding pure brokenness. The game is, regardless of our stage choices, imbalanced. Character matchups are inherently skewed because of character properties, and those are in turn affected by stage properties.
We say right now that Fox is the best character in the game. If we only played on levels where he had disadvantages, he wouldn't be the best anymore. Instead, we'd have a new best character for that stage list. Is this better or worse? IMO, it's "neither." Doesn't really matter if there's a "best" character on a stage provided it's NOT autowin or degenerate; that's all that matters from a competitive standpoint.
You don't find it fun? There's lots of obnoxious **** in every game that you won't find entertaining to deal with, but if we want to ban stuff because it's not fun then we'd have no solid tournament standard because people would ban things they personally think are stupid. I think people are EXPECTED, as tournament players, to overcome challenges based on matchups and game mechanics, and prove you can beat all non-broken strategies in the game. Not get rid of stuff you just don't like.
If you don't like a majority of strategies in the game... maybe it's the wrong game for you?
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for the record, Bum's preferred counterpick against fastfallers is Jungle Japes. note how Bum won game 2 against M2K on Japes. DSR forced him to pick his second choice, Brinstar.
confirmed via magical telepathic/AIM communication.
confirmed via magical telepathic/AIM communication.
Once again people need to understand that Hyrule is not actually banned because of Fox. Hyrule is banned because it becomes a match of "Who is the faster character." Even if it's a match between something stupid like Roy/Bowser, Hyrule is STILL broken because one character is faster than the other. Fox just so happens to be the current best abuser of the stage because he has speed+projectile. Ban every projectile user in the game and it's still broken because Falcon is faster than everything.
xbombr
Smash Ace
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS
I still don't think a Pichu/Kirby autowin stage would be banned though. No one would complain about it since they're not good on any other stage. DSR and bans would eliminate their chance of winning the set based on an autowin stage. Fox is good on other stages, every stage in fact. So people QQ because he's good at so many things and is dominant on so many stages. The problem is that they don't like the strategy that he uses to win on floats.
I can't say I've ever seen a match on PF where Fox just laser camped the whole time and had 0 chance of dying and/or losing the match. PF was a very underplayed stage anyway. People just hated it because they thought it was gay and refused to practice on it, so they never took advantage of it.
Every stage in the game emphasizes something different. A different aspect of each character. DL emphasizes recovery. FD emphasizes long combos and chaingrabbing. Floats emphasizes...camping. People hate camping and that's why 910 people will agree with it being banned.
Floats isn't Hyrule, you can't run forever on it and never get hit. There are several parts where the stage comes together and you can't get away from your opponent without running off screen and dying. Those are your chances to kill the faster character. It's not an autowin just because Fox can Pew Pew between those parts of the stage. Fox can still circularly camp most characters on any stage and they can't catch him.
xbomer do you understand that if an autowin Kirby/Pichu stage existed that it would essentially HAVE to be banned? Otherwise any given player has a go to stage when they lose simply because they could say "Counter Picking el oh el broke stage" and proceed to pick Kirby/Pichu. If that stage existed and was legal you'd have to ban it every time you get CP'd at which point the CP stage ban would be meaningless.