Rebanning stages

[pockyD]

you mean you equate a character having an unbeatable strategy as being too good. That means you have no problem with corneria since there is no unbeatable strategy.

A = B
B = A
~B
QED ~A

somewhat correct

except that I made no assertion concerning corneria

also you don't seem to know what QED is but it's cool that you've seen the term before and want to use it so badly

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

somewhat correct

except that I made no assertion concerning corneria

also you don't seem to know what QED is but it's cool that you've seen the term before and want to use it so badly

You didn't have to mention corneria. Do you even know what QED is?

then i equate a character being 'too good' as that character possessing an unbeatable strategy

you mean you equate a character having an unbeatable strategy as being too good. That means you have no problem with corneria since there is no unbeatable strategy.

A = B
B = A
~B
QED ~A

A - A character is too good [on that stage]
B - The stage has an unbeatable strategy

I brought up corneria, and make a statement about your beliefs based on what you yourself said. In this situation the stage refered to in both A and B is corneria, and logically its impossible for your original statement to be true while my statement is false.

Please tell me where i misused QED

 

[pockyD]

You didn't have to mention corneria. Do you even know what QED is?

A - A character is too good [on that stage]
B - The stage is competitively unfair

k let's bring it back

If you ban a stage only because a character is "too good" on it, you are only hurting the metagame [...] Come on guys. A stage should only be banned if it is competitively unfair.

whoops

looks like you contradicted yourself if you subscribe to my logic

if you don't then you contradict yourself 2 posts later when you attempt to use my logic against me

you're really putting a lot of effort in for such an incoherent perspective

I brought up corneria, and make a statement about your beliefs based on what you yourself said. In this situation the stage refered to in both A and B is corneria, and logically its impossible for your original statement to be true while my statement is false.

What are my beliefs on corneria? What is the 'original statement' in question?

I never asserted that corneria is either broken or not broken. I simply asserted that a character that is 'too good' on a stage directly implies that stage being 'broken' or 'unfair' or any other 'banworthy' term

which frankly is the definition of "too" good, is it not?

Please tell me where i misused QED

QED goes at the very end (~A ... QED), and you never led your series of statements with ~A so nothing was QED

not relevant at all but bashing on pseudointellectuals is incredibly fun

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

1. Yes i put "competitively unfair" when i meant to put "has an unbeatable strategy". My mistake, corrected my previous post.
2. Please make a coherent post. You claim i'm contradicting myself, though i see no logical contradictions.
3. Logical writing styles differ, though the meanings never change. And like you said, its irrelevant.

 

[KAOSTAR]

@ kao- the main problem youre having is that youre looking at every stage is if fox is ALWAYS there. marth, samus, plumbers, typically any char who can up-b to the fin with a sweet spot are more than competitive on Corneria. the reason you add these stages is because sometimes you need a variation of the same mechanics to match your playstyle.

any char can take jiggs to corneria because it takes away her strong early kills off the sides and gives you strong early kills against her. rainbow gives you the early kills on her but she still benefits from her great air mobility and quick kills. I think Corneria should be on just as a low ceiling alternative to YS vs jiggs.

Idk why u think getting beat by a fox on a neutral is better than a CP, theyre ALL in his favor. if u think hes gonna beat u on YS chances are hes gonna beat u on PF too, hell in a tournament 2 days ago eggm+ swift took me to kongo in teams, and won. IF KONGO is a FOX counterpick, theres nothing you can do about his ability to be good on every stage. you have to look at it from just a competitively fair perspective :D

losing on a neutral definitely means more. if it didn't then why do we even have a neutral list.

I am looking at it from perspective of fox always being there, considering he alone got at least half the stages banned I see that as a valid concern.

your argument is fox ***** on every stage so why does it matter.

I just see it as giving him too many options. fox is the best for a reason. fox benefits more than other characters on alot of these stages. id like to have more stages but fox ****ed everything up.

for the record I was trying to be open minded about the other stages, I was specifically trying to look at the stages that promoted something other than speed and camping. but looks like its gonna turn into an all or nothing.

in that case we should leave the list as it is.

 

[Mahone]

edit: nvm, pockyd already fixed ur qed

 

[Vyzor]

I didn't really read through the nine pages but, I really wish Mute City was unbanned

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

adfasdgfasdfasdfasd

 

[Ben-Teezee]

kao i see what you're saying, and if the options were some of the stages or none id much rather have some.

forgive me for not wanting to scan back through the pages but which stages do you think should be brought back then?

also there was someone who posted a while back when arguing wit scar about his spoc ruleset that if a stage is "fair" enough to be a legal stage than it should be a neutral. There shouldnt be a difference between fair and kinda fair, either its fair or it isnt. kinda idealistic and would never happen in the community but thats how we always play when we train :D everything on. ur post made me think of that.

 

[Kason Birdman]

Mute should be added and so should corneria.

Its either both are added or the list stays the same.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Well the difference between neutral and CP is the similarities between the stages. Neutral stages are just stages that test for similar skills in order to have a sort of foundation to standardize the results. If there were 6 cruise/floats we could make a neutral set from them. It just so happens we have 6 similar static two edged stages

 

[KAOSTAR]

kao i see what you're saying, and if the options were some of the stages or none id much rather have some.

forgive me for not wanting to scan back through the pages but which stages do you think should be brought back then?

also there was someone who posted a while back when arguing wit scar about his spoc ruleset that if a stage is "fair" enough to be a legal stage than it should be a neutral. There shouldnt be a difference between fair and kinda fair, either its fair or it isnt. kinda idealistic and would never happen in the community but thats how we always play when we train :D everything on. ur post made me think of that.

well I like brinstar as anti ff.

rainbow is good against ppl with slow aerial mobility, or good for power house characters in some MUs. it also allows fox to camp. but we can't just shut fox out. rainbow is timed and non random. I see floats as the same but jankyer. the flat surfaces in rainbow allow slower characters to move better or have to do less random jumping. no reason to have both stages legal. fox can camp alot of places but these two amplify that ability. its not fair to ban them just based on that. but say I wanted to avoid the side scroll jumpy stage cuz I play m2 or yoshi. I would ban rainbow....****! fox just picked floats. I can't have everything my way, so banning the side scroll means be prepared for the low ceiling stage. a choice I would have to make. I can choose aspects of the game im most suited against and prepare for others.

japes-epsilon said the camping is super gay. ive honestly never had this happen to me. not to say its not a valid concern. but I can say pikachu/pichu/m2 can use the extra ledges for added mobility. padding against vertical kills. general survivability. ganon/zelda can play king of the hill. smaller main platform makes it easier to corner rolls/cover options. characters who have a harder time tech chasing can use that as a potential advantage.

mute city-obviously peach and jiggs stand out. but characters with low lag up b can benefit. or just get more chances to punish a marth/sheik/falcon. chances they may not normally get. now pichu can utilize that crazy strong f smash.

kongo-like a DL. I like it a little, its the closest cp to a neutral stage. fox can camp tho. but the ceiling is high. idk really know how I feel about it because other than decent against marth idk if it benefits anything/style/character other than fox/puff peach? my guess is high platforms don't interrupt some vertical combos....idk, no real use

stadium-honestly by now everyone is comfortable here. it doesn't really boost fox in any area but they like the platforms. most fair fox cp imo.but not a neutral.

for balance of the game we should look at what the stages actually do to the metà in conjunction with each other.

cps are designed to give a style/character/something a boost. its suppose to tip the scales. but fox is a versatile power house, if we just allow every stage because we haven't proven it broken fox will run wild. imo if it doesn't promote diversity more our equal to fox's ability to camp then we don't need it.

also saying something like pika samus on corneria is bs. fox greatly ***** on low ceiling and pika could chose ys instead. no character benefits from the low ceiling more than fox. that fin **** is dumb imo. but if it is a viable strategy aka i cp corneria so I can play with the fin then its possibly a decent stage. if not...random ships and fox out weighing the benefits in his favor = no.

either cps should be chosen specifically to balancE as much as possible or we should play all neutrals adding stadium and kongo and just strike no cp.

fox being good because he is the best its ok. fox having an infinite array of stages to essentially power all of his skills up is whack. if he benefits the most from a stage...why have it.

I would be interested in hearing people's reasonings as to what they think are metà game advancing or skill/character benefiting for the other stages. something other than whats "fair" things that are fair can still destroy integrity.

such as the monopoly rule. its illegal irl for a reason.

 

[xbombr]

Pokefloats

Is there a stage hazard or random element to the stage that is beyond the player's ability to predict?

No.

Does it follow a set path?

Yes.

Is there an unbeatable strategy there?

No, although camping and abusing mobility is very powerful there.

Is it a gay, boring stage to watch when Fox is involved?

Yes.

Is that enough reason for it to be banned?

No.

 

[Plairnkk]

I simply don't think stages that change the entire dynamic of the game from the gameplay of neutral stages should be allowed. This is my opinion for a competitive game, but it's understandable that it isn't everybody's. Other fighting games have only one flat stage so we already have a lot of variation in stage size, platform high, blast zones, smash did a great job at even balancing every end of the "NEUTRAL" stages, so I don't see why we need ANY more stages.

Idealistically I'd run with the 5 neutrals and stadium, but I will admit counter picks add fun to the game for me every once and a while and i'm just as guilty of using them when legal as anyone else is.

 

[Skler]

Pokefloats

Is there a stage hazard or random element to the stage that is beyond the player's ability to predict?

No.

Does it follow a set path?

Yes.

Is there an unbeatable strategy there?

No, although camping and abusing mobility is very powerful there.

Is it a gay, boring stage to watch when Fox is involved?

Yes.

Is that enough reason for it to be banned?

No.

I have what some people would call the ****tiest Fox in the world. It wins on Floats if I want to be a ***** and I can barely l-cancel with the character. Floats is pretty stupid broken in singles. I do think it could be fine in teams though. Just like how Corneria can be fine in teams, silly ships and all.

You could also argue that Seel is a broken element you can't predict until it's already happened. I didn't know about Seel for a long time while I went to tournies (didn't play on PF much except for laughs) so I was caught completely unaware when it happened to me the first time. Luckily it wasn't a tourny match.

Why should all players have to know an obscure stage glitch? No other stage requires that kind of knowledge to not lose random stocks on.

 

[Plairnkk]

Why should all players have to know an obscure stage glitch? No other stage requires that kind of knowledge to not lose random stocks on.

THIS THIS THIS.

I don't feel that it's necessary for people to learn every matchup they already know all over again on lots of new stages. The game is skilled and deep enough as is, imo. This is why I disagree with stages that literally -entirely- change the way the game is played.



****by this logic I realize even not all neutrals would you play the same exactly, but a general similarity will be present.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

you know PFs once took half my liffes away when playing there first I died from soduwoodo, because if you spwan at the ruight time you can't move and you will die because you have to wait like 2 secs before you can move again. Then seal killed me and I couldn't recover. brinstar depths is way more legit in everythinkable way.


i've fallen throught the stage a few times as falco/fox and I always live I land on a small platform on the other side or I recover easily, camping isn't a big deal last for what 20 secs if you play there enough his pattern is easy to see he turns it to the player and you can watch his arms, and the lack of edges is more fair than MC because there is also a platform to recover on sometimes and wall jumps are mad useful there i'm thinking falco young link. also wall camping is uber fail if people know how to WD OOS.

walk up sheild they hit and you jump out WD on the edge(it makes it faster so even peach will have a fast WD) then FF niar to combo sorry kirby.

 

[Ace55]

No other stage requires that kind of knowledge to not lose random stocks on.

I only recently learned that you can air-dodge through the tree on PS. I've known about the seel glitch for years. What's the difference?

 

[EPsilon933]

You guys don't know anything about Brinstar. Ban that stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTChxLNteW8

Now if splitting Brinstar becomes the new Brinstar metagame, you're going to have to first learn the stage non-split, and now you're going to have to learn the stage split for a certain time unless someone keeps re-splitting it.

Spamus had no clue that the stage would split that fast or even at all, so he tried to shield and ended up losing 1 stock at 0% which is 1/4 of the game. Not legit at all. In fact, he died like this 3 times in the game. No watch the following game on a neutral game, a stage that doesn't give splitters such a huge advantage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Jo3kDkmXU

Brinstar: I won by 2 stocks
Final Destination: I lost by 3 stocks
That's a 5 stock difference. Either FD is broken for Samus or Split Brinstar is broken for Peach, and Split Brinstar is a part of Brinstar.

 

[Plairnkk]

i agree brinstar is stupid, however ur argument is flawed.

i think all counterpicks are stupid, which is why they ARENT neutrals. It's about -how- much it changes the metagame at this point which determines its legality.

Anybody can take any example of ANY counterpick stage and post one of the most extreme examples (samus sucks horribly on brinstar cuz she cant grapple whereas peach is good there) and make a stage seem way more unreasonable than it is.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I have what some people would call the ****tiest Fox in the world. It wins on Floats if I want to be a ***** and I can barely l-cancel with the character. Floats is pretty stupid broken in singles. I do think it could be fine in teams though. Just like how Corneria can be fine in teams, silly ships and all.

You could also argue that Seel is a broken element you can't predict until it's already happened. I didn't know about Seel for a long time while I went to tournies (didn't play on PF much except for laughs) so I was caught completely unaware when it happened to me the first time. Luckily it wasn't a tourny match.

Why should all players have to know an obscure stage glitch? No other stage requires that kind of knowledge to not lose random stocks on.

Stage knowledge is a skill. Yes it is completely fair to test for stage knowledge.

 

[EPsilon933]

i think all counterpicks are stupid, which is why they ARENT neutrals. It's about -how- much it changes the metagame at this point which determines its legality.

Anybody can take any example of ANY counterpick stage and post one of the most extreme examples (samus sucks horribly on brinstar cuz she cant grapple whereas peach is good there) and make a stage seem way more unreasonable than it is.

But Brinstar is like 2 stages in one and certain characters can control when it's split and when it's not. What other stage (either legal or up for debate on legality) can be changed on command?

So if I change Brinstar metagame so that Peaches and Jigglypuff **** the living crap out of everyone who can't handle a split Brinstar, would that affect its determination for legality?

 

[Plairnkk]

It would to an extent. Remember, Brinstar fixes on it's own. On top of that, there are other ways of playing brinstar. Characters with good downwards priority (namely falco) can own this stage just by sitting on the top platform with the lead and not really letting people up. Silly tactics like this work on all counterpick stages with certain characters, which is why i dont like them as a whole

 

[EPsilon933]

It would to an extent. Remember, Brinstar fixes on it's own. On top of that, there are other ways of playing brinstar. Characters with good downwards priority (namely falco) can own this stage just by sitting on the top platform with the lead and not really letting people up. Silly tactics like this work on all counterpick stages with certain characters, which is why i dont like them as a whole

Can't Peach do something as simple as umbrella Falco on the platform? I'm sure a lot of other characters can easily solve that problem too.

Brinstar does fix on its own, but if you know the timing, you can always go back and re-split it with a single move. It only takes like 2 seconds; .5 for the move to hit, 1.5 to get there. Just hit your opponent with a good attack and you've got your 2 seconds needed 9Jigglypuff needs only .5 seconds, slower splitters may need like 2 seconds).

I'd like to know what silly tactics work on
Brinstar - Your Falco dair theory
Mute City -
Kongo Jungle 64 -
Corneria - The Ness trick, but Ness has less weight in the argument since he's so uncommonly played and a bottom tier. But anything else?
Pokemon Stadium - it's like half neutral, half counter pick. Answer not needed.

 

[Skler]

Stage knowledge is a skill. Yes it is completely fair to test for stage knowledge.

There's a difference between stage knowledge such as knowing that the edge on battlefield will be gay to Peach unless you're spaced correctly (or something like that, I don't play Peach at all and I suck with her) and knowing that every other Tuesday in March Sheik will fall through Seel.

You can't expect players to remember obscure things about the game. Imagine you're a new player and somebody picks Pokefloats against you. Somehow you're good enough to not lose immediately but you end up falling through Seel. I know I'd call bull****, but if the other player said "LOL you suck so much because you didn't know Seel is some sort of magical teleportation circle to the ninth layer of hell," I'd probably punch him in the face and never play the game again.

When I first fell through Seel I thought it was a random glitch, not something that happens every single time.

Most tournament players rarely see the Seel glitch (PF is almost never played on for obvious reasons). Would it be so surprising if a player forgot about that obscure glitch for a half second and killed themselves on Seel?





Also Fox camping. That is the reason PF is banned. Seel is stupid but Fox camping on that stage is down right broken. Only Fox players want the stage unbanned for singles.

 

[Ben-Teezee]

There's a difference between stage knowledge such as knowing that the edge on battlefield will be gay to Peach unless you're spaced correctly (or something like that, I don't play Peach at all and I suck with her) and knowing that every other Tuesday in March Sheik will fall through Seel.

no there isnt a difference. Just because its a neutral therefore played more often therefore EXPERIENCED more does not make it so that u do not need to know one random thing about the stage. the same example you give about a newbie falling thru seel can be applied to a newbie missing the edge, they would go wtf, and the person theyre playing would go LOL battlefielded and theyd prob punch them in the face and never play again.

There silly stage nuances for every stage, extra hit boxes on shyguys, falling thru the tree on pokemon, battlefields edge, just cuz u chose to learn a certain set of stages instead of all of them doesnt make your argument more valid.

Im now just talking for the sake of being argumentative, this thread is going nowhere hopefully someday the stages will be brought back AT least for teams if not in the double ban format i suggested.

those of you that continue to post i will enjoy reading your valiant efforts in convincing biased players thru logic and watching them ignore and continue to talk nonsense :D

 

[EPsilon933]

I say stop beating around the bush.

FD is unfair to characters that get chain grabbed
DL is unfair for Peach/Jigglypuff/Fox/Falcon
FoD is unfair to Falcon and it's banned in teams
YS is unfair for Marth
PS is unfair for Fox/Falco

BF is fair for everyone because Falco/Fox's recovery gets nerfed, thus they get rightfully nerfed. Who else gets buffed/nerfed? No one.

 

[Pink Reaper]

How is FD unfair to chars that get chain grabbed? That's in inherent character flaw, it's not the stages fault. At the end of the day BF and FD are exactly the same, they're better for some chars, worse for others, there's no real argument to be had over which is better it's just a matter of "Do i want platforms or not"

 

[KAOSTAR]

There's a difference between stage knowledge such as knowing that the edge on battlefield will be gay to Peach unless you're spaced correctly (or something like that, I don't play Peach at all and I suck with her) and knowing that every other Tuesday in March Sheik will fall through Seel.

You can't expect players to remember obscure things about the game. Imagine you're a new player and somebody picks Pokefloats against you. Somehow you're good enough to not lose immediately but you end up falling through Seel. I know I'd call bull****, but if the other player said "LOL you suck so much because you didn't know Seel is some sort of magical teleportation circle to the ninth layer of hell," I'd probably punch him in the face and never play the game again.

When I first fell through Seel I thought it was a random glitch, not something that happens every single time.

Most tournament players rarely see the Seel glitch (PF is almost never played on for obvious reasons). Would it be so surprising if a player forgot about that obscure glitch for a half second and killed themselves on Seel?





Also Fox camping. That is the reason PF is banned. Seel is stupid but Fox camping on that stage is down right broken. Only Fox players want the stage unbanned for singles.

melee has alot of influence from stages and how players utilize them.

I expect players to know about legal stages. if you think its not about skill to know your opponent and the stage I will kindly ask you to drop link and pickup guile. you are playing the wrong game.

I have never seen the seel glitch or fallen through ps. but thats my fault.

id be mad at a tourney but its still my lack of knowledge. thats like getting mad cuz you had never seen randall before and you died cuz he ****ed you up.

players don't know the stage cuz they don't practice it. also....just post the glitches to notify the community. waffles, thread with rule (stage) update, announcement at tourney.

problem solved!

 

[Kason Birdman]

How is FD unfair to chars that get chain grabbed? That's in inherent character flaw, it's not the stages fault. At the end of the day BF and FD are exactly the same, they're better for some chars, worse for others, there's no real argument to be had over which is better it's just a matter of "Do i want platforms or not"

yeah..

but fd is harder to walltech on

 

[EPsilon933]

How is FD unfair to chars that get chain grabbed? That's in inherent character flaw, it's not the stages fault. At the end of the day BF and FD are exactly the same, they're better for some chars, worse for others, there's no real argument to be had over which is better it's just a matter of "Do i want platforms or not"

FD is unfair because there are no platforms to separate characters and platforms also prevent certain chain throws from continuing. It's not the stage's fault, it's just that the stage does nothing to help balance out the cast. If you saw a man who tripped and a man who didn't trip, wouldn't you offer your hand to help him back up?

FD is better for Marth (ruins the game for Falco/Fox)
Fox (Falco/Falcon/Fox)
Sheik (unless it's PAL)
Peach (Falco/Falcon/Fox)
Ice Climbers (banning wobbling entirely will reduce the amount of brokeness and require skill and awesomeness)

That's not balancing stuff. They're already part of the top 8 and 3 of them are par of the top 4 and 1 is now commonly considered the 6th best.

We always need platforms to prevent broken chain throws


-OH! WAITTTTTTTTTTTTTT! Fox and Falco get chain throw *****! FD is a good idea, as in better than my BF only idea. I change my mind. FD only it is. So much better balance.

 

[KAOSTAR]

FD is unfair because there are no platforms to separate characters and platforms also prevent certain chain throws from continuing. It's not the stage's fault, it's just that the stage does nothing to help balance out the cast. If you saw a man who tripped and a man who didn't trip, wouldn't you offer your hand to help him back up?

FD is better for Marth (ruins the game for Falco/Fox)
Fox (Falco/Falcon/Fox)
Sheik (unless it's PAL)
Peach (Falco/Falcon/Fox)
Ice Climbers (banning wobbling entirely will reduce the amount of brokeness and require skill and awesomeness)

That's not balancing stuff. They're already part of the top 8 and 3 of them are par of the top 4 and 1 is now commonly considered the 6th best.

We always need platforms to prevent broken chain throws


-OH! WAITTTTTTTTTTTTTT! Fox and Falco get chain throw *****! FD is a good idea, as in better than my BF only idea. I change my mind. FD only it is. So much better balance.

mewtwo picks fd cuz its his best stage

 

[The Cutting Edge]

I have never seen the seel glitch or fallen through ps. but thats my fault.

I have. The firs time I've done it (and I've seen it on youtube before it's happened to me), I was like wtf? Then I died and didn't even try to get back because I was too wtf'ed. The second time I fell through, I was like

NO! Fool! I aint dying so stupidly TWICE!

So I double jumped and landed on the lowest floor on the tree transformation. The PS holes are so rare, they're not a problem. When you fall through a hole, even as Fox, it's so easy to live, it's not a problem.

 

[xbombr]

How is FD unfair to chars that get chain grabbed? That's in inherent character flaw, it's not the stages fault. At the end of the day BF and FD are exactly the same, they're better for some chars, worse for others, there's no real argument to be had over which is better it's just a matter of "Do i want platforms or not"

How is FD any less unfair to chaingrabbable characters than PF is to characters without strong camping games?

IMO, you can do less about a legit chaingrab than strong camping.

edit: Oh wait, this stage is used to balance a few match ups involving Fox/Falco. That certainly makes it a more fair stage. MY BAD.

 

[Voodoo Daddy]

This is ********. Mute city and brinstar clearly fault the character and not the player. The winner of a competitive match should be the better player, not the character who won first round. If peach or jiggs win first round and Mute City AND Brinstar are both legal they pretty much win the set, as you can only ban won. the quality of tournaments has greatly improved since these stages were banned.

God forbid a peach player have to win on a stage where their character can't carry them to victory.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Some oldies but goodies:
Bum (DK) vs PC (Peach) on Brinstar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjLRplaAY4Y
Bum (DK) vs M2K (Fox) on Brinstar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8kdJ9uNmKo
Bum (DK) vs Isai (Falcon) on Brinstar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHFqHbsvLkE

 

[Wobbles]

Voodoo: Of course, you're basing that entire argument on the fact that Mute and Brinstar are, in fact, autowin. Quick question. Even when Mute and Brinstar were both legal in most rulesets, how many times did you see people ever playing friendlies on them? How often did people practice on those stages? Puffs and Peaches would play there all the time because it was their counterpick, and they have more obvious and immediately obtainable stages, so they had reason to do it.

But just because the first level of a metagame benefits one character doesn't mean it ALWAYS benefits that character. Lots of IC players will assert to you that Peach vs. ICs is an awful matchup, probably around 7:3 or even 8:2 in Peach's favor. This is interesting, because I've spent a lot of time playing it and I'm confident it's more around 6:4 or 55:45. It's actually pretty **** close to even, even when you're fighting a Peach who is experienced in the matchup. Though Peach's advantages against ICs are more obvious and easily accessible, with training and understanding it's nearly neutral IMO.

Do you really want to know how well everybody *actually* does on Mute? Play there a bunch. Learn more about it than the other guy, find the character-specific tricks and nuances to the stage that you learned on all the others, and see what hidden advantages come to you. I found out ICs are actually pretty **** legit on Mute City, even though it's "supposed" to be an awful stage for them. And I've won many matches on Rainbow because I actually sit down and practice there; in tournaments a Fox or Peach or Falcon will take me there and it turns out hey, I *still* know what I'm doing and I *still* win even against character advantages AND alleged stage advantages. BTW, Cruise is actually pretty good for ICs as well, if you know how to play it.

The point here is that conventional wisdom about the counter-pick stages hardly take into account any practice, effort, or metagame expansion. God forbid a non-Peach player have to practice and learn about a different stage to win there.

 

[EPsilon933]

This is ********. Mute city and brinstar clearly fault the character and not the player. The winner of a competitive match should be the better player, not the character who won first round. If peach or jiggs win first round and Mute City AND Brinstar are both legal they pretty much win the set, as you can only ban one. the quality of tournaments has greatly improved since these stages were banned.

God forbid a peach player have to win on a stage where their character can't carry them to victory.

Double bans. It frees up Mute City and Corneria and solves the extra broken Fox/Jigglypuff/Peach problem.

 

[Voodoo Daddy]

Wobbles: I know the disadvantages can be surmounted, and a great player does that, but it doesn't change the fact that in a match like peach marth or peach sheik, mute city and brinstar are extremely unbalanced. I just don't think it's worth it.

 

[SwiftBass]

onett mother 2 theme.


the end