Rebanning stages

[Fortress | Sveet]

Kaostar, the MBR made an official ruleset for the first time in melee history. In the past it completely up to the TO and it didnt matter much. Now its fine if you remove stages but if you add any people are going to make a huge deal out of it because there is an "official" list that is backed by some of the top names in the competitive scene. How do you not see what is wrong with that, especially when the stages are competitively fair but plank thought the stages were too gay or something like that.

 

[PEEF!]

do you mean 'unbanning' stages?

best post??

The game is more competitive with the current MBR stagelist. In fact, getting rid of RC and Brinny would make it even better.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Until "Competitive" gains a proper definition, refrain from using it as a reason for doing things.

 

[KrazyKnux]

Kongo Jungle should be on the list as well.

The community community keep shrinking and tourney attendance keeps dropping. I think adding more stages(even if it's just in teams) would more help tourney attendance than hurt it.

That's about the least true statement I've read

I think Melee needs more focus on teams.

Everyone's so focused on themselves, they're not being taught to focus on their friends. jk's, but it could be true maybe (applies to 1 guy I know).

I can see this. Most competitive games/sports definitely focus more on team play. I definitely love singles, that's what I'm more focused on, but things like Doubles and Crews (if run well, especially) could really generate some hype if done well. A problem I see with doubles, however, is spectating is generally not as fun (for me at least). Whether it's because it's too hard to follow, or I don't really care for either of the teams. Crews, however, fix this. They work as a team and play 1v1s. Once people start rooting for their "teams", it's a lot more interesting. That's why I like the whole EC/WC rivalry, and whatnot.

Oh wait, this topic is about stages? Neutrals only imo.

 

[Merkuri]

best post??

The game is more competitive with the current MBR stagelist. In fact, getting rid of RC and Brinny would make it even better.

I think people arguing that the game is less fun/deep and not less competitive.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Kaostar, the MBR made an official ruleset for the first time in melee history. In the past it completely up to the TO and it didnt matter much. Now its fine if you remove stages but if you add any people are going to make a huge deal out of it because there is an "official" list that is backed by some of the top names in the competitive scene. How do you not see what is wrong with that, especially when the stages are competitively fair but plank thought the stages were too gay or something like that.

what if plank thought it was the opposite of gay to add floats, and take off brinstar? he probably would.

if people respect their opinions enough to use (want enough to where they would skip a tourney cuz of the stages) their recommended rule set then whats the problem?

I also don't want this double standard bs. if a TO is bold enough to take a stage away they should be man enough to add.

wobbling has the same problem. but its less subjective. it SHOULD WITHOUT A DOUBT BE LEGAL but its left up to the TO. just get over it.

I think you should fight to get your point across, but argue good. convince people the stages should be legal and if you have valid enough points you should expect mbr would listen/be reasonable.

if they arent then wtf do you care what they think in the first place.

also note that most players only care about neutrals. if they don't like the larger stage list you have more problems than just mbr.

your focus needs to be convincing people the stages should be legal because they add to the depth to the game. not that competitively fair bs because it doesn't actually mean anything.

just argue better.

ive already stated id like to see japes and MC. I gave my reasons. not much more to do.

quit life I guess.

 

[omgwtfToph]

It still comes down to ppl are too lazy to argue the rules, the few ppl that do argue arent "important" enough for the TO's to care. Its ok eventually the rules will go down japan style where its just FD and DL/BF and the higher tier character will always win cuz theyre playing on a stage that furthers strengthens their character. and by then we'll all finally give in and quit melee :D

yeah ****ing right, FD brings all kinds of checks and balances to the space animals and puff. LOOOOL how does the higher tier character always win on FD, it's more like the higher tier character always wins on bull**** stages because they can just run away and abuse their better speed/range

if by "the higher tier character" you mean "the better player" then, why yes, the better player usually DOES win on neutral stages!

 

[Ben-Teezee]

yeah ****ing right, FD brings all kinds of checks and balances to the space animals and puff. LOOOOL how does the higher tier character always win on FD, it's more like the higher tier character always wins on bull**** stages because they can just run away and abuse their better speed/range

if by "the higher tier character" you mean "the better player" then, why yes, the better player usually DOES win on neutral stages!

ur an idiot if u think FD is balanced, countless posts have been made about it in this thread im not gonna repeat them.

if u mean by better player the person who picked the char who could chaingrab the other, then yea they usually do win on FD.

 

[KAOSTAR]

ur an idiot if u think FD is balanced, countless posts have been made about it in this thread im not gonna repeat them.

if u mean by better player the person who picked the char who could chaingrab the other, then yea they usually do win on FD.

its usually space animals being cg. sheik can cg on other stages as well.

whats wrong with cgs? its still not unwinnable. fox can cg falco.

 

[xbombr]

I disagree with the term "perfectly level" playing fields of course, because character attributes inherently turn stages into uneven grounds of play.

Personally, I like the variety that the stages offer. When we set precedents for banning and removing levels that aren't ostensibly "fair," then that means people will keep banning things with "stupid" elements, steadily eliminating more and more variety and fun from the game. I hate using the slippery slope argument but that's what happens. Once you set a precedent for "ban this," people start saying "well why not ban this? They're very similar."

People want to remove Fountain from the starter list, as it isn't fair to certain characters. That sucks for ME because quite frankly it's my favorite level and my go-to counterpick, regardless of the character I'm fighting! But the platforms can interfere with people's linear shuffle games, and rather than pay attention to them they'd rather just not play there.

People want to get rid of Battlefield because the edge is "dumb." Let's take Yoshi's off because Randall interferes with recovery and you can't *really* control when people get sent off the stage, even though you can adapt by checking the timer periodically. Oh, and the Fly Guys mess with hitboxes and stuff, so that level is just crap-tier for Ness. But nobody really mentions Ness.

Dreamland? Huge stage, promotes camping, Wispy ruins everything, and we're already facing a Jiggs-centric meta-game for our top 1 and 2, and this is one of her best stages. Pokemon? Transformations make things dumb and it hugely favors characters with horizontal mobility. Leaving us with... FD as the only stage you can't complain about for its inherent characteristics. Except THEN the ability to control match momentum through platforms and stage control becomes removed, and CGs become strong... so yes, I guess you can.

Our stages are all inherently skewed towards particular styles of play. I am of the (apparently pretty lonely) opinion that we should NOT be trying to determine what method of play is "best," keep as many non-broken elements of the game in, and have people develop effective playstyles around the game as is.

Items? Banned for random and extreme localized advantages/disadvantages. Certain levels? Banned for degenerative and broken strategies. Other levels? Because they're different from... certain other levels we chose because we just liked them better. Which we can't even agree on and people want to get rid of some of them. Preference is dictating our meta-game rather than the simple tenet of "if it ain't broke don't ban it."

I have no idea how legitimately broken Fox is or is not on PF because nobody goes there anymore. I have almost no experience in tournament with that level, except for two fun recollections:

--Plank took me there at Super Champ Combo and I switched to Fox (go figure!). Didn't camp but I won.
--Edreese took me there at my debut IC infiniting tournament and I switched to Ganon for surprise counter-counterpicking.

My working knowledge of that stage is pretty limited. I spend a lot of time practicing on Brinstar and Cruise (since those are the most commonly allowed and selected CPs against my character) and I feel like I'm not at any tremendous disadvantage on those levels even though they're SUPPOSED to suck bad for ICs.

Conventional wisdom is "convenient" wisdom, which doesn't mean it's accurate. X is a bad level for Fox... well, maybe certain parts suck. Maybe certain parts are awesome! Mute is crap for ICs in certain respects, but lots of practice has shown me it's *harder* to gimp Nana there for 80% of the level, half of it is a miniature FD with no edges so I get freebie grabs on edgeguards (so that's a stock) and then the mass of platforms lets me poke safely with u-air and smashes. Wide stage sections means I get to zone comfortably without worrying about getting pushed off. Cars hinder everybody so what's the difference there? The REAL problem with Mute is that every stationary segment is slightly sloped, which has fun effects on Nana's AI that most people don't know about. I only learned all this after spending a lot of time in training mode and just a couple matches getting acclimated to the level. Conventional wisdom says "ban or switch if you're ICs," experience tells me it's not so bad.

So what might I find out about Pokefloats if I play on there enough? I dunno, let's ban it first.

I'm quoting this because people REALLY need to read it.

Wobbles the part about stages being inherently skewed towards certain styles of play is spot on. You're definitely not alone in your views. I've seen PF promotes camping in at least one description of why it's banned, every time I ask. I do not believe that this is a valid reason for a stage ban as it's influencing playstyle via ruleset.

Sure people of the MBR don't say that their rules can't be changed, but the fact is that the largest tournaments in the smash community use this ruleset and varying scale of size tournaments also follow this ruleset because they want to be able to get more attendence since people can see a tournament with the MBR ruleset as practice for a national. I can almost guarantee that anyone who has competed in a nation, didn't go to a smaller, warm up tourney a week or two before that toted the same rulset as the recommended one or the one in place for an upcoming (in)ternational tournament.

Sure local tournaments or smaller regional tournaments have random janky rules and stages on, but these tournaments don't have a huge impact on the smash community that stretches across the nation, or even other ones now that EU has some involvement in the scene over here.

tl;dr The MBR ruleset has a huge impact on the rulesets of every tournament because it is the accepted standard.

 

[Plairnkk]

Sure people of the MBR don't say that their rules can't be changed, but the fact is that the largest tournaments in the smash community use this ruleset and varying scale of size tournaments also follow this ruleset because they want to be able to get more attendence since people can see a tournament with the MBR ruleset as practice for a national. I can almost guarantee that anyone who has competed in a nation, didn't go to a smaller, warm up tourney a week or two before that toted the same rulset as the recommended one or the one in place for an upcoming (in)ternational tournament.

Sure local tournaments or smaller regional tournaments have random janky rules and stages on, but these tournaments don't have a huge impact on the smash community that stretches across the nation, or even other ones now that EU has some involvement in the scene over here.

tl;dr The MBR ruleset has a huge impact on the rulesets of every tournament because it is the accepted standard.

Has it ever occurred to you that that people simply -prefer- playing on this stagelist? You may not, but the majority of people do.

So don't go into some completely errant argument about how people only use this ruleset to practice for nationals, they use the ruleset simply because they like it better.

With every standard there will always be radical groups who want otherwise, but to completely ignore the fact that you are by FAR in the minority is just dumb.

And for what it's worth, basically all tournaments on the EC use this ruleset, so I don't really know what you're talking about saying

"I can almost guarantee that anyone who has competed in a nation, didn't go to a smaller, warm up tourney a week or two before that toted the same rulset as the recommended one or the one in place for an upcoming (in)ternational tournament."

Sooo yeahhhh. The ruleset didn't come out of nowhere and it wasn't arbitrary. It was decided upon as a compromise and is by far the most popular ruleset i've seen since the game came out. People don't just stick to it "because it's the standard". It's only been the standard for a year or so now, and i've never seen people have more fun at tournies ^^

It's fine if you disagree, but just realize, you are one of few.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Has it ever occurred to you that that people simply -prefer- playing on this stagelist? You may not, but the majority of people do.

But if everyone preferred to play on big blue, that wouldnt change the fact that the ruleset should be based on competitively fair stages and not what people "prefer".

So don't go into some completely errant argument about how people only use this ruleset to practice for nationals, they use the ruleset simply because they like it better.

With every standard there will always be radical groups who want otherwise, but to completely ignore the fact that you are by FAR in the minority is just dumb.

No u.

Btw just because you're the majority doesn't make you right. The majority of people are stupid.

And for what it's worth, basically all tournaments on the EC use this ruleset, so I don't really know what you're talking about saying

"I can almost guarantee that anyone who has competed in a nation, didn't go to a smaller, warm up tourney a week or two before that toted the same rulset as the recommended one or the one in place for an upcoming (in)ternational tournament."

Sooo yeahhhh. The ruleset didn't come out of nowhere and it wasn't arbitrary. It was decided upon as a compromise and is by far the most popular ruleset i've seen since the game came out. People don't just stick to it "because it's the standard". It's only been the standard for a year or so now, and i've never seen people have more fun at tournies ^^

It's fine if you disagree, but just realize, you are one of few.

Idk where you get these "facts" but i hear complaints about this ruleset from everyone all the time.

Here are the real facts:
You made a ruleset
Your tournament which used said ruleset was quite popular
MBR backed your ruleset and put the title "MBR OFFICIAL RULESET" on it

Now, since it was your list why don't you answer this for me: Why is mute city banned? Why is Corneria banned? Why is Pokefloats banned? Care to explain how they are competitively unfair?

 

[KAOSTAR]

So if every single smasher wanted FD only.

We should play the other 8 stages because its competitively fair?

What does competitively fair mean?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Until "Competitive" gains a proper definition, refrain from using it as a reason for doing things.

This holds true for the MBR side of the debate too

 

[Skler]

This holds true for the MBR side of the debate too

Screw that, the MBR doesn't need to follow silly rules! It wouldn't be competitive.

 

[Pink Reaper]

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What does competitively fair mean?

its the top line of my sig.

Competitively Fair- Game outcome is within players' control and no strategy is unbeatable.

 

[Plairnkk]

Idk where you get these "facts" but i hear complaints about this ruleset from everyone all the time.

Here are the real facts:
You made a ruleset
Your tournament which used said ruleset was quite popular
MBR backed your ruleset and put the title "MBR OFFICIAL RULESET" on it

Now, since it was your list why don't you answer this for me: Why is mute city banned? Why is Corneria banned? Why is Pokefloats banned? Care to explain how they are competitively unfair?

You hear complaints because that is the nature of people, they complain. Humans will run a mile to complain but won't walk 100 feet to show appreciation. As a TO I hear much less complaining about this ruleset than the previous one. In my shoes LESS complaining is a huge victory, complaining is like why 50% of smashers live and breathe.

Now here's where you're entirely wrong

I didn't make the ruleset. I wasn't part of the MBR until after the ruleset was decided on. I simply backed it, agreed with it, and therefore used it for my tournament. I had the first national that used it and therefore it was dubbed the "*Pound* 4 ruleset".

I don't need to sit here and argue with you because it will obviously go in a circle. All i ask is that you get your "facts" straight before you go around and call them "facts" acting like i'm just this tyrant who single handedly changed the rules of the game.

 

[EPsilon933]

unsubscribed because of lame arguments

 

[Tokyoinamerica]

****acked banning Corneria. Map is a good CP for some characters, and balanced. Random elements make it different from other maps, but they really never affect the outcome. They some times do inflict damage, but I say no where near a ban.

 

[xbombr]

You hear complaints because that is the nature of people, they complain. Humans will run a mile to complain but won't walk 100 feet to show appreciation. As a TO I hear much less complaining about this ruleset than the previous one. In my shoes LESS complaining is a huge victory, complaining is like why 50% of smashers live and breathe.

Succumbing to complaints doesn't make the ruleset right or fair.

I now have the REAL answer to why pokefloats is banned. People went and *****ed about it because they thought it was gay, they didn't like camping, and they wanted Fox to be less powerful so they could play lesser characters more viably. People who actually decide the rules got tired of the *****ing and gave in.

This is why competitive smash isn't taken seriously by other communities. I have a serious problem when the ruleset can be changed by general *****ing because people who think they're better than they are lose a set on a CP that promotes camping.

 

[Plairnkk]

The ruleset cant be changed by "*****ing". If that was the case, we would have changed it already from your "general *****ing".

The MBR decided on it...

I don't agree the MBR is the best way to go about things but hey, can you think of a better way? A vote of the entire forums never works because there are too many newbies who never go to any tournaments or don't know anything who come here. MBR is flawed because it's a small group of people without clear definitions on how you get in.

Maybe at apex i'll have someone make a poll and see if i can get any reasonable data or something.

But really unless you can think of a more fair way for people to come to a decision than getting top respected players (who are willing) to intelligently discuss things, then there's no way to make any progress.



Also, to say that is the reason competitive smash isn't taken seriously by other communities.... that's pretty obscene.

 

[xbombr]

Also, to say that is the reason competitive smash isn't taken seriously by other communities.... that's pretty obscene.

It really isn't taken seriously. I mean, I like the smash community or I wouldn't even be here, but we literally get along with NO ONE. We're seen as whiny little kids by other ignorant communities and I guess changing our ruleset because of QQ'ing somewhat validates why they frown upon us.

Go try to discuss smash on any fighting game board that isn't smash based and tell me how that goes. I can save you the time and tell you that 99% of the people on those boards will flame you and tell you to go back to your party game no matter how ridiculous their arguments sound.

I just think overall that the MBR needs clear definitions of why ruleset changes should occur. This would solve an enormous amount of these problems.

 

[Plairnkk]

It really isn't taken seriously. I mean, I like the smash community or I wouldn't even be here, but we literally get along with NO ONE. We're seen as whiny little kids by other ignorant communities and I guess changing our ruleset because of QQ'ing somewhat validates why they frown upon us.

Go try to discuss smash on any fighting game board that isn't smash based and tell me how that goes. I can save you the time and tell you that 99% of the people on those boards will flame you and tell you to go back to your party game no matter how ridiculous their arguments sound.

I just think overall that the MBR needs clear definitions of why ruleset changes should occur. This would solve an enormous amount of these problems.

you're so ignorant, i meant that there is no way THAT is the reason why, not that we aren't taken seriously.

The MBR spent months debating stages. Don't assume because you weren't part of it that it didn't happen

 

[xbombr]

you're so ignorant, i meant that there is no way THAT is the reason why, not that we aren't taken seriously.

Denial doesn't make you right, nor does calling me ignorant. It's the truth that we aren't taken seriously, partly because other communities don't think this is a fighter (which is ****ing ******** in my opinion) and partly because they think we're a bunch of little kids (which apparently a portion of the community that has been in contact with them acts like). I'm not saying that their hatred of our community is justified at all, but I'm saying that we're not 100% angelic in the matter of maturity since we're willing to change our rules because of whining.

ANYWAY, this isn't the point of the thread.

I have my answer to why the stage is banned. While I'm not satisfied by that answer, I'm content with leaving it at that. The stages (at least some of them) weren't banned under a competitive set of guidelines, but rather at the unstoppable power of the QQ... which I had suspected was the case anyway. There isn't a competitive reason that they're banned and I'm willing to accept that I suppose since I'm unable to debate with or be heard by the rule making body of the community. I'm apparently in the minority of people who actually believe that a ruleset should only be changed for purely competitive reasons.

Edit: I also think that you personally can see at least a slight lack of maturity in this community, Plank. You're hosting national, often international, tournaments in large, expensive venues, that require months of planning and work to prepare, only to have people QQ about the ruleset not being fair. Seeing the circumstances that you're dealing with, I can see why you wouldn't want unpopular stages being legal during your tournaments. The solution of banning being used is the wrong one, in my opinion, but is possibly the most efficient and least taxing solution available since you only have to read me QQ on the forums (which you don't really even have to do, but are at least kind enough to answer me anyway) rather than have someone come up to you and complain after months of planning and hardwork. I can respect that.

 

[KrazyKnux]

I'd imagine we'd be taken less seriously if we often played on ridiculous stages like pokefloats! LOL

 

[Pengie]

I swear, with other fighting game communities it's a lose/lose situation; If we allow the unconventional stages then we're playing a dumb party game and if we ban them then we're a bunch of whiny scrubs that ban everything on sight.

 

[Plairnkk]

@knux thats my reason as a TO for not using those stages. as a competitive player its totally different logic, but i still reach the same spot lol.

its all in what is your definition of competitive.

 

[xbombr]

I swear, with other fighting game communities it's a lose/lose situation; If we allow the unconventional stages then we're playing a dumb party game and if we ban them then we're a bunch of whiny scrubs that ban everything on sight.

Honestly, I think they make themselves look stupid by saying Smash isn't a fighting game. If we handle ourselves with maturity and know we're right, then we win overall, whether they like us or not.

 

[Plairnkk]

Agree to disagree it is then. I still think the TO should have the power to each of their tournies, rather than just conforming to the MBR choice. And no matter what the choice, the TO should still be supported since it's really -NOT- a big deal, in the scheme of things.

 

[Tokyoinamerica]

I'd imagine we'd be taken less seriously if we often played on ridiculous stages like pokefloats! LOL

lol, pokefloats. That would be epic. Mango vs M2K on pokefloats *Pound 5*ha
Make it happen.

 

[xbombr]

Agree to disagree it is then. I still think the TO should have the power to each of their tournies, rather than just conforming to the MBR choice. And no matter what the choice, the TO should still be supported since it's really -NOT- a big deal, in the scheme of things.

I completely agree that it's up to the TO what rules are used and not used. The problem lies in the supposed "higher power" that puts out a guideline for TO's to follow. While they're not actually able to tell TO's what to do, most tournaments do use the standard set by the MBR because that's what it is, the standard.

My aim in this topic was not to tell TO's what to do, but rather to make a point about why the MBR standard guideline should be changed. No one is forced to adopt the MBR's ruleset, but that doesn't mean that a vast majority don't.

What the MBR does is tell TO's and players that "This is our recommended ruleset, outlined by some important players in the community, but you're not required to use it." What happens then is that some TO's will change certain parts of it, but will ignore others due to indifference. Anything they do change that is unpopular, they have to bear the sole burden of complaints and such. Changing the ruleset can range from "not a problem" to " Omg they're complaining and I put so much time into this and don't expect anything in return."

 

[KAOSTAR]

I completely agree that it's up to the TO what rules are used and not used. The problem lies in the supposed "higher power" that puts out a guideline for TO's to follow. While they're not actually able to tell TO's what to do, most tournaments do use the standard set by the MBR because that's what it is, the standard.

My aim in this topic was not to tell TO's what to do, but rather to make a point about why the MBR standard guideline should be changed. No one is forced to adopt the MBR's ruleset, but that doesn't mean that a vast majority don't.

What the MBR does is tell TO's and players that "This is our recommended ruleset, outlined by some important players in the community, but you're not required to use it." What happens then is that some TO's will change certain parts of it, but will ignore others due to indifference. Anything they do change that is unpopular, they have to bear the sole burden of complaints and such. Changing the ruleset can range from "not a problem" to " Omg they're complaining and I put so much time into this and don't expect anything in return."

you are trying to hold peoples hands.

your argument was pointless. you want the mbr to say you don't have to use our rules etc. not that it matters but thats kinda like asking the pope to tell people that he doesn't actually have any power.

why would he want to do something like that even tho it is true?

educate yourself and others if that is your cause. don't try to force others to do it for you.

not to mention mbr tells people all the time that its a recommendation.

the word "official" only means that its got mbr stamp of approval. I myself have an official rule set. people don't have to follow it. wa has an official rule set. still its up to the TOs.

host your own dam tourneys.

 

[xbombr]

you are trying to hold peoples hands.

your argument was pointless. you want the mbr to say you don't have to use our rules etc. not that it matters but thats kinda like asking the pope to tell people that he doesn't actually have any power.

why would he want to do something like that even tho it is true?

educate yourself and others if that is your cause. don't try to force others to do it for you.

not to mention mbr tells people all the time that its a recommendation.

the word "official" only means that its got mbr stamp of approval. I myself have an official rule set. people don't have to follow it. wa has an official rule set. still its up to the TOs.

host your own dam tourneys.

You still misunderstand my point. The MBR already says that people don't have to use their rules, the fact is that people do, and I'd like them to be changed as they are the official standard of this community despite whether or not they are required to be used.

 

[KrazyKnux]

Ah, I'm glad we have good standards then! The ruleset now is definitely solid, if anything I wouldn't mind knocking off a couple more stages (Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, u kno)

 

[KAOSTAR]

You still misunderstand my point. The MBR already says that people don't have to use their rules, the fact is that people do, and I'd like them to be changed as they are the official standard of this community despite whether or not they are required to be used.

Q_Q more. the fact is TOs can do what they want.

All big national tourney holding TOs know this. They choose this list anyway.

imo its fair. its not all neutrals. all cp aren't available.

I think some stages in combination with others detract from the game as I like to play it.


but nobody cares what I think. nobody cares what you think.

get over it. or start your own club

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

KAOSTAR get your trolls out of here *****

 

[xbombr]

KAOSTAR get your trolls out of here *****

^This.

At first, I thought he legitimately misunderstood what I was saying.

 

[MarsFool!]

There should be a melee side room.
More common sense than a noob, but not enough for a purple name lol

No seriously side room has its own debates then the mbr votes on them. This is just a suggestion so flame away.

 

[Winston]

I don't feel like wading into the argument about corneria/mute/rainbow/floats right now, but why is there no discussion of banning Kongo Jungle 64?

As far as I know it's the only stage in the current ruleset where it's possible in certain matchups to run away indefinitely on. This makes it a strong candidate for a ban under the most commonly suggested criteria.

It's not problematic at all right now because nobody chooses to try and exploit this, but I'm just wondering where you guys stand on this issue.