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autowin stages don't actually exist. no, not even for fox.
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Rebanning stages
- Thread starter Fortress | Sveet
- Start date
john!
Smash Hero
$10 mm, hyrule castle, my fox vs. your anything. my fox is terrible, ask anyone from illinois
Bones0
Smash Legend
I accept. I will be using Fox. :D$10 mm, hyrule castle, my fox vs. your anything. my fox is terrible, ask anyone from illinois
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- 7,187
I change my mind about Corneria.
The fin allows for dumb camping to happen. I'd ban that stage. Keep Mute City.
The fin allows for dumb camping to happen. I'd ban that stage. Keep Mute City.
xbombr
Smash Ace
The fact is that the reason you get a ban at all is to prevent imbalance between the characters and stages. Just because one stage is always, or is most often, the most effective use of said ban, does not mean that your ban is being wasted or is meaningless. I almost would always ban FD against Marth if I'm playing a fast faller. Does this mean that my ban was meaningless? Does it mean that FD is broken? The answer to both is no. I'm preventing an imbalance in the game from being amplified by stage choice. This is what the ban for PF would be for. PF is to campers as FD is to Marth for fastfallers. The ban prevents this imbalance from taking place, just like the ban would be used to prevent a stage stressing movement speed from being used against a slower character. Other bans against Fox are purely cosmetic or because you think you'll do badly on the stage. This isn't what the ban is for. It's for preventing imbalance, not your own laziness or supporting your preferences.
Bans and CP'ing ARE NOT IN THE CODING OF THE GAME. They are made up parts of the competitive ruleset. Their existence is only to allow the players to balance out the imbastages in a match up. Are you saying a MADE UP rule becomes MEANINGLESS because you're using it to protect yourself from something that's totally fair instead of something that's down to preference? (Not wanting to play on DL because of the wind, not wanting to play brinstar because of the lava, and not wanting to play other stages because of something gay on them that doesn't benefit your character is not a good reason to use a ban on that stage.) Just because you ban the same stage against Fox every time that doesn't mean that it's imba enough for a community wide, character cast-wide ban, it means that you're playing a character that's entirely inferior on that stage and you don't want to change. If Fox had several autowin stages, then I could see banning a few of them, but (as strong_bad also believes) Fox does not have any autowin stages. Playing is not as simple as "I pick Fox and PF, GG."
Let me ask another question even though I probably won't get an honest answer like I didn't from my last one. What do you REALLY gain by banning PF for the entire competitive community and cast of characters?
My answer, at least, is that you get to ban a different stage against Fox. It's probably pokemon stadium. Fox still beats the entire cast on YS (except arguably Marth and maybe Falco), FD (again except for Marth and Falco), RC (where he actually does completely stomp both Marth and Falco), DL (except for Jigglypuff, he stomps Marth here too). Really I can go on as Fox has no bad stages and no more than 2-3 even stages against any character. All of the stages are either in his favor or cause him to go even with a character. When Fox is getting CP'd, it's just to stages that make the match up more even. When Fox CP's he takes someone to a stage in his favor, just like he should. What you gain is the ability to ban a stage for whatever personal purpose beyond balancing the game. "Jiggs isn't that great on YS.", "Man that wind is annoying.", "I hate getting lava combo'd", ect. ect. are what your ban, which is intended to balance the game, is now used on. Perhaps the stages you're wanting to use your ban on should be re-examined, rather than the ones that are preventing you from using your ban on that stage.
The issue is that you can't possibly ban all of the stages in Fox's favor to balance him in a way to where he's even or not most likely to win a set even with PF gone. So what happens is that PF (A completely fair stage) is off the stage list for the entire cast and no one really gains anything from it because he'll just take you to a stage where you're likely to lose against someone of your skill level or slightly lower anyway. Fox is what's imba, not PF. I'm not saying ban Fox instead of Floats though. He's not broken or unfair enough to be banned. He's just good, the best in fact.
edit: removed unnecessary side-tracking about my smash philosophy
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hyrule castle doesn't exist in Melee.$10 mm, hyrule castle, my fox vs. your anything. my fox is terrible, ask anyone from illinois
Here's my opinion.
I prefer a more modest stage list because I feel that basically all of the counterpick stages do nothing but degenerate gameplay. It's a great thing that stages are in Smash and that we've chosen to use so many, but as a -competitive- game, we definitely became overzealous at the start of the game and allowed a lot of stages that weren't competitively viable. We already get such great stage variety with just the neutral stages. Some have smaller blast zones, some have platforms, some have no platforms, different height platforms, wind on dreamland, the cloud on yoshi's, crazy edges on battlefield, etc.
However as apparent as these differences are, they don't completely modify gameplay and strategy for the majority of the cast/matchups.
Levels like PokeFloats, Corneria, and Brinstar have aspects of them that over-centralize the game into playing against the level, which, in my opinion, is not what smash (or any competitive fighting game) is about. These stages modify the gameplay for basically every character+character matchup in the game and turn the way you play into an entirely different way based on each individual stage.
To the people who use the argument "learn and adapt to the level, learn it's ins and outs... etc" I say why should we have to? I want to focus on learning the ins and outs of my character, of every matchup. The ins and outs of a specific player and how to punish them, rather than the ins and outs of an external stage where instead of fighting on a solid ground we are jumping around on Pokemon the entire match chasing the player with the lead.
When the majority of players play the game they are playing to have fun. They want it to be competitive but they also want to have fun. When you look around tournaments (even tournaments where counterpick stages are legal) you don't see people playing friendlies and practicing on them. Why? Because there's no reason to. Everything we need for a great competitive game is available in the neutrals, and by adding in all these counterpick stages you are doing nothing but degenerating the game to a level-specific over-centralizing strategy.
So what do you people who are actually for legalizing these stages suggest that we do? Everyone should put on all the stages and practice them all the time when they play, for every matchup? This way when it comes time in tournament (maybe 5% of the time or so) where some lame person wants to take you to pokefloats, you're prepared?
The people who want these stages legal are LARGELY the minority and it's for a reason. The stages each have extremely stupid things about them, which is why they were counterpicks in the first place. It's not because we simply don't want to learn them, but rather we don't feel we should HAVE to since they don't promote competitive fairness or a competitive game.
Lastly, having stages like these legal is a HORRIBLE way to get new faces to enter the scene, imo. It's hard enough for newer players to learn tech, matchups, knowledge, etc enough to become a respectable player. If you take these players and constantly make them play on stupid levels that take away everything they've practiced for, it definitely won't inspire them to continue playing.
And for people who are watching but debating getting into the game in the first place, it's possible seeing matches like this will discourage them too.
I don't know, the way I see it both as a competitive player and as a Tournament Organizer, having counterpick stages legal is just entirely detrimental to the community as a whole. They over-centralize game play, make people angry, and make the game look like a total joke from an outside perspective.
I prefer a more modest stage list because I feel that basically all of the counterpick stages do nothing but degenerate gameplay. It's a great thing that stages are in Smash and that we've chosen to use so many, but as a -competitive- game, we definitely became overzealous at the start of the game and allowed a lot of stages that weren't competitively viable. We already get such great stage variety with just the neutral stages. Some have smaller blast zones, some have platforms, some have no platforms, different height platforms, wind on dreamland, the cloud on yoshi's, crazy edges on battlefield, etc.
However as apparent as these differences are, they don't completely modify gameplay and strategy for the majority of the cast/matchups.
Levels like PokeFloats, Corneria, and Brinstar have aspects of them that over-centralize the game into playing against the level, which, in my opinion, is not what smash (or any competitive fighting game) is about. These stages modify the gameplay for basically every character+character matchup in the game and turn the way you play into an entirely different way based on each individual stage.
To the people who use the argument "learn and adapt to the level, learn it's ins and outs... etc" I say why should we have to? I want to focus on learning the ins and outs of my character, of every matchup. The ins and outs of a specific player and how to punish them, rather than the ins and outs of an external stage where instead of fighting on a solid ground we are jumping around on Pokemon the entire match chasing the player with the lead.
When the majority of players play the game they are playing to have fun. They want it to be competitive but they also want to have fun. When you look around tournaments (even tournaments where counterpick stages are legal) you don't see people playing friendlies and practicing on them. Why? Because there's no reason to. Everything we need for a great competitive game is available in the neutrals, and by adding in all these counterpick stages you are doing nothing but degenerating the game to a level-specific over-centralizing strategy.
So what do you people who are actually for legalizing these stages suggest that we do? Everyone should put on all the stages and practice them all the time when they play, for every matchup? This way when it comes time in tournament (maybe 5% of the time or so) where some lame person wants to take you to pokefloats, you're prepared?
The people who want these stages legal are LARGELY the minority and it's for a reason. The stages each have extremely stupid things about them, which is why they were counterpicks in the first place. It's not because we simply don't want to learn them, but rather we don't feel we should HAVE to since they don't promote competitive fairness or a competitive game.
Lastly, having stages like these legal is a HORRIBLE way to get new faces to enter the scene, imo. It's hard enough for newer players to learn tech, matchups, knowledge, etc enough to become a respectable player. If you take these players and constantly make them play on stupid levels that take away everything they've practiced for, it definitely won't inspire them to continue playing.
And for people who are watching but debating getting into the game in the first place, it's possible seeing matches like this will discourage them too.
I don't know, the way I see it both as a competitive player and as a Tournament Organizer, having counterpick stages legal is just entirely detrimental to the community as a whole. They over-centralize game play, make people angry, and make the game look like a total joke from an outside perspective.
xbombr: Uhh.... no, he's actually just arguing the point that IF you had an autowin stage for some character--hypothetically?--it would need to be banned. Because playing it doesn't just yield an advantage, but a guaranteed victory given a certain strategy. That's broken. That's imba to the point of wrecking the game. That means that either you ban that level against X character with the broken strategy, use X character when someone counterpicks you there and hope you're better at doing the broken thing, or lose. THAT--for the last time, hypothetical--level of power is imbalanced, and is worth banning completely.
Plank: It's too much? Don't practice something because you might not run into it? "Why should we have to?" Because it's in the game, and it's not broken, and several of them are actually NOT degenerate.
We can establish they aren't broken and that there is, in fact, competitive depth when playing on these levels. People who complain about fighting against the level tend to say that because they try and pretend those aspects of the stage aren't there, rather than use them. People play on Brinstar without bothering to observe the shaking, the lava patterns, they fight on the breakable section in the middle and when it breaks or messes with their hitboxes say "WTF" because they weren't paying attention.
You are suggesting somehow that everything you learn about the characters goes out the window when you go to Brinstar and that you're suddenly playing a completely different video game. It doesn't, and you aren't. It takes barely any time at all to learn the level patterns. Play on them for a single *day* and you'll know almost everything about them. You will learn how to apply your character knowledge. You learn the same stuff you learn on other stages: character recovery tricks, whether your character has to double jump to poke somebody through the top platform.
Why, for instance, do you know that Fox can ledge-hop waveland onto the side platforms of Yoshi's Story, or that Falco can forward+b ledge-cancel across PS's middle platforms, or that Marth can tipper f-smash through every starter platform except for Dreamland's (but he can still up-tilt), or that if you up+b and go too deep on Battlefield's ledge with Peach you won't grab on? You know this because you practiced on these stages. Spend any time on the other stages and you will learn the same kind of stuff.
People are trying too hard to fight against the levels and play like they're on FD all the time. People get surprised by the lava on Brinstar hitting them, not recognizing that their options change as the level layout changes. These levels ALSO have depth to offer, have their own trove of strategies worth learning and exploring. You're asking "why do I have to learn them?" and I'm asking "why the hell wouldn't you want to?" They ARE fun, once you know what you're doing, and they have depth and their own unique metagames, just like other levels.
Not broken, not degenerate, don't ban it... unless it's too much effort? Is that really what it means to have a competitive mindset? "Don't do it if it's too much trouble"?
Plank: It's too much? Don't practice something because you might not run into it? "Why should we have to?" Because it's in the game, and it's not broken, and several of them are actually NOT degenerate.
We can establish they aren't broken and that there is, in fact, competitive depth when playing on these levels. People who complain about fighting against the level tend to say that because they try and pretend those aspects of the stage aren't there, rather than use them. People play on Brinstar without bothering to observe the shaking, the lava patterns, they fight on the breakable section in the middle and when it breaks or messes with their hitboxes say "WTF" because they weren't paying attention.
You are suggesting somehow that everything you learn about the characters goes out the window when you go to Brinstar and that you're suddenly playing a completely different video game. It doesn't, and you aren't. It takes barely any time at all to learn the level patterns. Play on them for a single *day* and you'll know almost everything about them. You will learn how to apply your character knowledge. You learn the same stuff you learn on other stages: character recovery tricks, whether your character has to double jump to poke somebody through the top platform.
Why, for instance, do you know that Fox can ledge-hop waveland onto the side platforms of Yoshi's Story, or that Falco can forward+b ledge-cancel across PS's middle platforms, or that Marth can tipper f-smash through every starter platform except for Dreamland's (but he can still up-tilt), or that if you up+b and go too deep on Battlefield's ledge with Peach you won't grab on? You know this because you practiced on these stages. Spend any time on the other stages and you will learn the same kind of stuff.
People are trying too hard to fight against the levels and play like they're on FD all the time. People get surprised by the lava on Brinstar hitting them, not recognizing that their options change as the level layout changes. These levels ALSO have depth to offer, have their own trove of strategies worth learning and exploring. You're asking "why do I have to learn them?" and I'm asking "why the hell wouldn't you want to?" They ARE fun, once you know what you're doing, and they have depth and their own unique metagames, just like other levels.
Not broken, not degenerate, don't ban it... unless it's too much effort? Is that really what it means to have a competitive mindset? "Don't do it if it's too much trouble"?
I don't know where that is coming from. I pointed to those matches as reasons the stage should stay legal because it causes much more dynamic situations than you see on other stages, and Bums matches usually do a lot to showcase how a lower tier can take on a higher tier on that stage.
Additionally, to answer your question, Dreamland 64 is Bums best neutral counterpick.
I've never once played against a level. Except in Brawl on Halberd when the hazards actually target you. Everything else is easily avoidable, the only borderline case for the levels we are discussing is Corneria but frankly if you can't avoid a hazard with several seconds of warning then its probably cause the opponent is pressuring, in which case the opponent probably knows how to play the stage so best to take advantage of the hazards.
"Playing against the level" is usually a cop out feeling a player gets when the other player kicks their butt at zoning and spacing. If a player grabs top platform on Brinstar when the lava rises then any damage taken by the other player is a failure of their ability to beat the other player (not the stage). If a player fails to keep moving to the right on Pokefloats cause the other player keeps pushing them away, and they lose a stock cause the blast zone keeps moving, it's the fault of the player who could not overcome the opponent to get to a safe position on the stage (not the stages fault).
Completely agree. Competitive in Smash has slowly actually come to mean the devaluation of any concept or tactic that doesn't require a static, straight forward, copy/paste approach. Where a character should zone minute one in a match should be the same location that character should zone during minute two, and the strategy of the player should only have to change based on the actions of the other player instead of any adaptations to the environment (even though the ability to adapt to both would really show the most skillful player competitively). This has become the value system in Smash (Brawl and Melee). I'm glad after almost a year or two of no one talking about it in Melee that the topic has arisen again. It is a start to at least reverse the trends of turning the game into the way the Japanese play (which I know plenty of people would love to see happen).
I don't really have the time to continue a long winded debate sadly, and I said pretty much anything I could say without running the argument in circles. I can understand why you guys (AZ and Wobbles mostly i'm referring to) feel the way you feel, but I simply disagree with it.
@bomber: you play falco, a jiggs is cp'ing you. you ban brinstar, they cp pichu instant win and switch to pichu. you ban pichu instant win stage, they cp brinstar. allowing that makes stage bans meaningless.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
can somebody tell me why you feel the need to have rainbow and poke floats.
what adv/dis are there on each stage.
balance is gained from stage control. ppl keep arguing about this whats fair. I think its fair to say that having too large of a cp list ruins part of the game. they should be hand picked with competitive depth in mind.
what adv/dis are there on each stage.
balance is gained from stage control. ppl keep arguing about this whats fair. I think its fair to say that having too large of a cp list ruins part of the game. they should be hand picked with competitive depth in mind.
Sinji
Smash Master
Corneria needs to be allowed again. through 2002-2006 corneria was favored more then FD
xbombr
Smash Ace
They learned how to play 2 characters while I only know how to play one. I deserved to lose since they have a more diverse set of characters at tournament level. If they didn't learn Pichu and just chose him for an autowin, I could have easily changed to Pichu and still won. I don't understand why people have to cling to a character with their life when it's disadvantageous in some situatinos to do so. That's not competitive play ffs.
Anyway, that was a hypothetical question, Fox has no broken stage.
It's not a "Disadvantageous situation" it's a "Play this character or lose" situation.
By your logic, Hyrule Castle should be legal as everyone can just play fox and then it's even.
By your logic, Hyrule Castle should be legal as everyone can just play fox and then it's even.
Furthermore, if it's a case of "your character is so awful that they always lose on X stage" you don't ban the level to balance around one character. The idea isn't to promote having no counterpick strategies, but to eliminate broken, unbeatable ones.
That said, we completely ignore the ICs when it comes to CP balance lol.
Robbles, I've always felt the need to ask an ICs player how it is they manage around the CP stages. Do you, as a player, think the list we have now hinders the ICs from being a true high tier character?
Robbles, I've always felt the need to ask an ICs player how it is they manage around the CP stages. Do you, as a player, think the list we have now hinders the ICs from being a true high tier character?
Ben-Teezee
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2009
- Messages
- 152
@ alphazealot, sry i thought you were being sarcastic and using those vids as examples of why those stages should be banned.
wobbles: i agree with almost everything u say, glad a more "recognized" player is arguing in favor of CP's.
plank: agree to disagree, good solution :D maybe we'll eventually convince u :D
wobbles: i agree with almost everything u say, glad a more "recognized" player is arguing in favor of CP's.
plank: agree to disagree, good solution :D maybe we'll eventually convince u :D
Depends on if I'm playing a Fox that's really really willing to camp. Almost anything else is beatable even on stages like RC and Brinstar. If Fox wants to camp me out forever *and* he's good enough to actually fight me, then I have to deal with eliminating Battlefield, Dreamland, and Cruise. He's naturally advantaged on Yoshi's and PS, leaving me FD and FoD in my favor. Corneria and DK64 are... not sure really, haven't played there. Mute feels kind of even, depends a lot on who can maintain dominance during the third traveling segment. Brinstar's kind of a pain but workable. Other characters I don't really worry about, Falcon on DK64 is really tough, he's a rough customer on all levels though so what's new? Don't mind him on Mute at all though. And Brinstar against Puff is probably autoban. I'd rather fight her on Mute.
I don't really care where people want to take me, I just stay ICs now. Most ICs switch off because their counters are initially really tough to deal with--nowadays I think even Peach is only 6:4, maybe 55:45 in her favor; I've stuck it out and found that many counterpicks aren't much worse (if at all) once you know how to navigate them. DK64 is my toughest one I think.
Again, unless you're playing a Fox that is hell bent on camping you to death. I still don't really know how to deal with that effectively.
I don't really care where people want to take me, I just stay ICs now. Most ICs switch off because their counters are initially really tough to deal with--nowadays I think even Peach is only 6:4, maybe 55:45 in her favor; I've stuck it out and found that many counterpicks aren't much worse (if at all) once you know how to navigate them. DK64 is my toughest one I think.
Again, unless you're playing a Fox that is hell bent on camping you to death. I still don't really know how to deal with that effectively.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
It is very tough to deal with a campy Fox on DK64 for reasons similar to why it's hard to deal with him on Dreamland; he can really safely camp the top platforms and all of the ICs' options for dealing with that are very unsafe.
I don't think ICs are that bad on DK64 for the most part, though. I've had a lot of success there by very persistently camping the center of the main stage. You can't afford to move around a lot because of the funky stage structure, but I don't think you really need to move around much against most of the characters that would take you there.
I don't think ICs are that bad on DK64 for the most part, though. I've had a lot of success there by very persistently camping the center of the main stage. You can't afford to move around a lot because of the funky stage structure, but I don't think you really need to move around much against most of the characters that would take you there.
SHUT UP FLY I DIDNT ASK YOU YOU CANT EVEN BEAT A MARIO 
I can understand KJ64 being a bit of a bummer what with the stupid high platforms. Does the awkward stage form screw with nana/CGs much?
I can understand KJ64 being a bit of a bummer what with the stupid high platforms. Does the awkward stage form screw with nana/CGs much?
xbombr
Smash Ace
Again, Fox does not break PF enough to make it bannable. You CANNOT camp the entire stage. Fox probably can break Hyrule with proper play, but I've actually never seen it done since it's been banned since the MLG days.
The reason, and only reason, PF could possibly be banned is if it overcentralized the metagame to the point where Fox-PF was a dominant strategy used by every player or an enormous group of players. This was not the case, never would have been the case, and now, since it's banned AND a gay stage, will never be the case.
This stage was not abused to a bannable extent before. The tactics and tech skill required to camp it effectively have been around since before competitive play even existed. Running and SHL are as old as the hills. Plank's BS excuse for new age tech skill allowing for players to effectively shut down any enemy on the stage is nothing but crap. There is no new age tech skill required to camp PF. Not to mention this argument contradicts another one of his. If a high amount of new age tech skill was required to break PF, then not just anyone could pick Fox and shut down their opponent. It's either one way or the other. Either it takes forever to be good enough with Fox to shut down their opponent on PF and the stage isn't broken, or PF was never broken to begin with since it was legal through smash's competitive existence along with camping and the SHL/SHDL up until P4 when it was banned for no reason other than a shiny new ruleset, camping is gay, and "Man.... Fox ***** my Sheik on this stage."
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
I wish Kongo Jungle were legal, the music is too good
xbombr: We have not been talking about Pokefloats. We've been talking about your hypothetical situation of the existence of an autowin stage. Neither Pink nor I have even mentioned Pokefloats, I don't think.
Also, just because there's a high ceiling for a broken strategy does not in fact keep the strategy from being broken. The strategy remains autowin, despite being difficult to execute. The only time you give it a miss in this regard is if it's broken, but too difficult for humans to perform. In this case we would acknowledge its impracticality and leave it alone. Again, NOT REFERRING TO POKEFLOATS. This is just a general statement regarding brokenness.
I don't even know if PF is campable to the point of an impossible win for the campee, if only because a) nobody's done it to me, and b) nobody's had the chance to because it's banned. I recall winning a match on DK64 by timeout using Puff against Peach, and she literally could NOT do anything to catch me. I got a lead, and just hopped from side platform to side platform. If she went high, I went low. If she tried to carefully restrict my movement by playing from the middle using the rotating platforms, I just didn't move. If she went high, I went under her. I'm pretty confident you could do this to Peach (and a couple other characters as well) with Puff, Falcon, Fox, maybe Falco? Beats me, nobody ever tries testing these things.
Also, just because there's a high ceiling for a broken strategy does not in fact keep the strategy from being broken. The strategy remains autowin, despite being difficult to execute. The only time you give it a miss in this regard is if it's broken, but too difficult for humans to perform. In this case we would acknowledge its impracticality and leave it alone. Again, NOT REFERRING TO POKEFLOATS. This is just a general statement regarding brokenness.
I don't even know if PF is campable to the point of an impossible win for the campee, if only because a) nobody's done it to me, and b) nobody's had the chance to because it's banned. I recall winning a match on DK64 by timeout using Puff against Peach, and she literally could NOT do anything to catch me. I got a lead, and just hopped from side platform to side platform. If she went high, I went low. If she tried to carefully restrict my movement by playing from the middle using the rotating platforms, I just didn't move. If she went high, I went under her. I'm pretty confident you could do this to Peach (and a couple other characters as well) with Puff, Falcon, Fox, maybe Falco? Beats me, nobody ever tries testing these things.
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2008
- Messages
- 7,187
Random Question
What are all the stages that were once legal (at tournaments bigger than local events) but are now commonly banned.
So far the list for it that I think I know would be
Mushroom Kingdom II
Onett
PokeFloats
Jungle Japes
Green Greens
Yoshi's Island Pipes
Princess Peach's Castle
Termina Great Bay
What are all the stages that were once legal (at tournaments bigger than local events) but are now commonly banned.
So far the list for it that I think I know would be
Mushroom Kingdom II
Onett
PokeFloats
Jungle Japes
Green Greens
Yoshi's Island Pipes
Princess Peach's Castle
Termina Great Bay
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
EPsilon, what date are you starting at? At one point every stage was on random and there were no "neutrals".
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2008
- Messages
- 7,187
When no items was the standard everywhere to current.
xbombr
Smash Ace
I understand, but my argument and involvement in this topic is about pokefloats and not just brokeness in general. I genuinely agree with what I've read of your posts though.
I do not believe that Fox is broken on Floats. I believe that it amplifies his ability to camp people and gain an upperhand JUST LIKE CP'S DO FOR ANYONE ELSE. However, I do believe that if Fox were broken on Floats, that it still should not be banned as it has not overcentralized the metagame and for him to break floats would require a higher skill level than is attainable since you would have to find a way to camp someone on uncampable parts of the level. IF anything Floats is less broken now that the skill level is higher people are often able to take a stock with 1-2 combos, especially against the ever so exploitable fast fallers.
What banning Floats actually does, since it doesn't stop Fox from having an advantage on **** near every stage, is make floaties more viable. So what do we do to balance that? We ban MC. I suppose everything evens out in the end, but we could have a larger, more diverse stagelist that is just as balanced as everything is now. I suppose that's what I have a problem with. Stages make this game unique, not the characters, at's, or controls. Every fighting game has characters, at's, and controls. Other fighting games have a flat plane that the characters fight on and very little usage of the stage, if any at all. Banning stages to balance characters is pointless since full balance or even 50% balance will never be achieved. What it does is suck the life from the game since it's just turning into every other fighting game, but 10 years older, with no sponsorship, and a community that doesn't generally get taken seriously by other fighting game communities.
In general and on the topic you're discussing, Wobbles, I believe that the widely accepted ruleset of this community is contradictory to itself in regards to banned stages. Many characters achieve Fox on Floats level advantage over other characters on certain stages, yet these stages are cp's or even nuetral. I think it's unfair for perfectly level playing fields, as far as randomness and playability go, to be banned, especially when they never overcentralized the metagame. A small group of QQ'ers actually wanted the stages this topic is about banned and no one else really cared to say anything before it happened because the stages were unpopular to begin with as they promoted camping or floaty characters that could drag matches out, possibly to the timer. It's pointless to have a timer if there is a 0% chance to hit it and the ruleset is actually changed whenever a match gets timed out to prevent it from happening again.
The reason banning even exists is to get rid of these minor flaws in character/stage design so they don't have to be banned for the entire community. Banning does not exist to give you an out just because you don't like stage x in general or your character isn't totally **** on it (like Fox banning BF because he doesn't have a wall to UB against). If that IS what bans are actually for, then I disagree with having any bans at all.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
If fox doesn't try to time out the clock on floats or camp it would be near impossible for him to play there right like rock camping on kongo jungle. However a major problem with PFs is the random deaths where I fall throught and die then respawn and sudowoodo kills me on the starting platfrom before I can make a move input. That's totally random and total bull s*** It's also impossible to predict most of the time and if you react in time you can't can't up-B because the hole covered it's self back up.
Also PF is a walk off the edge stage so pikachu could jjust get a grab and kill you in one throw. I hate dieng at like 30% Also if you say that is just stage control/knowledge how come I was the one pushing him into the corner and I died? b-throw. controling the stage that mores faster than some of the cast is not something likely doable.
SO you aren't rewards much for stage control, it only premodes camping and loseing stocks to the stage, and most of the cast can't deal with the stage.
However if your going to debate about keeping stages more open debate for brinstar depths, you can't really camp it unless they are playing as like bowser and your fox. Also falling though the stage isn't that common and you can normally recover and if you can't you can still live from landing on one of the islands on the other side. Camping only lasts like 20 secs same for the walls so fox can't just **** you against the walls that bad. I've done lots of testing it's fairly balanced.
Also PF is a walk off the edge stage so pikachu could jjust get a grab and kill you in one throw. I hate dieng at like 30% Also if you say that is just stage control/knowledge how come I was the one pushing him into the corner and I died? b-throw. controling the stage that mores faster than some of the cast is not something likely doable.
SO you aren't rewards much for stage control, it only premodes camping and loseing stocks to the stage, and most of the cast can't deal with the stage.
However if your going to debate about keeping stages more open debate for brinstar depths, you can't really camp it unless they are playing as like bowser and your fox. Also falling though the stage isn't that common and you can normally recover and if you can't you can still live from landing on one of the islands on the other side. Camping only lasts like 20 secs same for the walls so fox can't just **** you against the walls that bad. I've done lots of testing it's fairly balanced.
I disagree with the term "perfectly level" playing fields of course, because character attributes inherently turn stages into uneven grounds of play.
Personally, I like the variety that the stages offer. When we set precedents for banning and removing levels that aren't ostensibly "fair," then that means people will keep banning things with "stupid" elements, steadily eliminating more and more variety and fun from the game. I hate using the slippery slope argument but that's what happens. Once you set a precedent for "ban this," people start saying "well why not ban this? They're very similar."
People want to remove Fountain from the starter list, as it isn't fair to certain characters. That sucks for ME because quite frankly it's my favorite level and my go-to counterpick, regardless of the character I'm fighting! But the platforms can interfere with people's linear shuffle games, and rather than pay attention to them they'd rather just not play there.
People want to get rid of Battlefield because the edge is "dumb." Let's take Yoshi's off because Randall interferes with recovery and you can't *really* control when people get sent off the stage, even though you can adapt by checking the timer periodically. Oh, and the Fly Guys mess with hitboxes and stuff, so that level is just crap-tier for Ness. But nobody really mentions Ness.
Dreamland? Huge stage, promotes camping, Wispy ruins everything, and we're already facing a Jiggs-centric meta-game for our top 1 and 2, and this is one of her best stages. Pokemon? Transformations make things dumb and it hugely favors characters with horizontal mobility. Leaving us with... FD as the only stage you can't complain about for its inherent characteristics. Except THEN the ability to control match momentum through platforms and stage control becomes removed, and CGs become strong... so yes, I guess you can.
Our stages are all inherently skewed towards particular styles of play. I am of the (apparently pretty lonely) opinion that we should NOT be trying to determine what method of play is "best," keep as many non-broken elements of the game in, and have people develop effective playstyles around the game as is.
Items? Banned for random and extreme localized advantages/disadvantages. Certain levels? Banned for degenerative and broken strategies. Other levels? Because they're different from... certain other levels we chose because we just liked them better. Which we can't even agree on and people want to get rid of some of them. Preference is dictating our meta-game rather than the simple tenet of "if it ain't broke don't ban it."
I have no idea how legitimately broken Fox is or is not on PF because nobody goes there anymore. I have almost no experience in tournament with that level, except for two fun recollections:
--Plank took me there at Super Champ Combo and I switched to Fox (go figure!). Didn't camp but I won.
--Edreese took me there at my debut IC infiniting tournament and I switched to Ganon for surprise counter-counterpicking.
My working knowledge of that stage is pretty limited. I spend a lot of time practicing on Brinstar and Cruise (since those are the most commonly allowed and selected CPs against my character) and I feel like I'm not at any tremendous disadvantage on those levels even though they're SUPPOSED to suck bad for ICs.
Conventional wisdom is "convenient" wisdom, which doesn't mean it's accurate. X is a bad level for Fox... well, maybe certain parts suck. Maybe certain parts are awesome! Mute is crap for ICs in certain respects, but lots of practice has shown me it's *harder* to gimp Nana there for 80% of the level, half of it is a miniature FD with no edges so I get freebie grabs on edgeguards (so that's a stock) and then the mass of platforms lets me poke safely with u-air and smashes. Wide stage sections means I get to zone comfortably without worrying about getting pushed off. Cars hinder everybody so what's the difference there? The REAL problem with Mute is that every stationary segment is slightly sloped, which has fun effects on Nana's AI that most people don't know about. I only learned all this after spending a lot of time in training mode and just a couple matches getting acclimated to the level. Conventional wisdom says "ban or switch if you're ICs," experience tells me it's not so bad.
So what might I find out about Pokefloats if I play on there enough? I dunno, let's ban it first.
Personally, I like the variety that the stages offer. When we set precedents for banning and removing levels that aren't ostensibly "fair," then that means people will keep banning things with "stupid" elements, steadily eliminating more and more variety and fun from the game. I hate using the slippery slope argument but that's what happens. Once you set a precedent for "ban this," people start saying "well why not ban this? They're very similar."
People want to remove Fountain from the starter list, as it isn't fair to certain characters. That sucks for ME because quite frankly it's my favorite level and my go-to counterpick, regardless of the character I'm fighting! But the platforms can interfere with people's linear shuffle games, and rather than pay attention to them they'd rather just not play there.
People want to get rid of Battlefield because the edge is "dumb." Let's take Yoshi's off because Randall interferes with recovery and you can't *really* control when people get sent off the stage, even though you can adapt by checking the timer periodically. Oh, and the Fly Guys mess with hitboxes and stuff, so that level is just crap-tier for Ness. But nobody really mentions Ness.
Dreamland? Huge stage, promotes camping, Wispy ruins everything, and we're already facing a Jiggs-centric meta-game for our top 1 and 2, and this is one of her best stages. Pokemon? Transformations make things dumb and it hugely favors characters with horizontal mobility. Leaving us with... FD as the only stage you can't complain about for its inherent characteristics. Except THEN the ability to control match momentum through platforms and stage control becomes removed, and CGs become strong... so yes, I guess you can.
Our stages are all inherently skewed towards particular styles of play. I am of the (apparently pretty lonely) opinion that we should NOT be trying to determine what method of play is "best," keep as many non-broken elements of the game in, and have people develop effective playstyles around the game as is.
Items? Banned for random and extreme localized advantages/disadvantages. Certain levels? Banned for degenerative and broken strategies. Other levels? Because they're different from... certain other levels we chose because we just liked them better. Which we can't even agree on and people want to get rid of some of them. Preference is dictating our meta-game rather than the simple tenet of "if it ain't broke don't ban it."
I have no idea how legitimately broken Fox is or is not on PF because nobody goes there anymore. I have almost no experience in tournament with that level, except for two fun recollections:
--Plank took me there at Super Champ Combo and I switched to Fox (go figure!). Didn't camp but I won.
--Edreese took me there at my debut IC infiniting tournament and I switched to Ganon for surprise counter-counterpicking.
My working knowledge of that stage is pretty limited. I spend a lot of time practicing on Brinstar and Cruise (since those are the most commonly allowed and selected CPs against my character) and I feel like I'm not at any tremendous disadvantage on those levels even though they're SUPPOSED to suck bad for ICs.
Conventional wisdom is "convenient" wisdom, which doesn't mean it's accurate. X is a bad level for Fox... well, maybe certain parts suck. Maybe certain parts are awesome! Mute is crap for ICs in certain respects, but lots of practice has shown me it's *harder* to gimp Nana there for 80% of the level, half of it is a miniature FD with no edges so I get freebie grabs on edgeguards (so that's a stock) and then the mass of platforms lets me poke safely with u-air and smashes. Wide stage sections means I get to zone comfortably without worrying about getting pushed off. Cars hinder everybody so what's the difference there? The REAL problem with Mute is that every stationary segment is slightly sloped, which has fun effects on Nana's AI that most people don't know about. I only learned all this after spending a lot of time in training mode and just a couple matches getting acclimated to the level. Conventional wisdom says "ban or switch if you're ICs," experience tells me it's not so bad.
So what might I find out about Pokefloats if I play on there enough? I dunno, let's ban it first.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
Fourside was legal at one point, as it's banned for most of the same reasons as Princess Peach's Castle.
Actually Fourside succumbed to banning for Peach wall bombing, then remained banned even after wall bombing was found to work on practically any stage and was therefor banned as a tactic on the whole. In other words Fourside never got unbanned from its original unjust banning.
Wobbles I think its pretty clear Fox isn't broken on most/all the stages we talk about. When people have to adapt away from their linear play styles (as you note) they get upset/confused as to why they play poorly. Ultimately Pokefloats never had any serious balance issues when it was legal, non-Fox players won all the time. It is just one of many cop-out excuses to ban a stage when someone gets called out for doing something "because they don't like it".
The most complicated thing most people want to see is someone standing below a platform there is 180 degrees of attackable area, or on top of a platform with 360 degrees of attacking area. Any other derivation of these two concepts makes people whine. Throw in zones that change based on stage interaction and the concepts are just to annoying (read complicated) for most people who just want to go aggro the whole match.
Wobbles I think its pretty clear Fox isn't broken on most/all the stages we talk about. When people have to adapt away from their linear play styles (as you note) they get upset/confused as to why they play poorly. Ultimately Pokefloats never had any serious balance issues when it was legal, non-Fox players won all the time. It is just one of many cop-out excuses to ban a stage when someone gets called out for doing something "because they don't like it".
The most complicated thing most people want to see is someone standing below a platform there is 180 degrees of attackable area, or on top of a platform with 360 degrees of attacking area. Any other derivation of these two concepts makes people whine. Throw in zones that change based on stage interaction and the concepts are just to annoying (read complicated) for most people who just want to go aggro the whole match.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
You'd learn that ICs are pretty good there.
I miss Pokefloats and never liked any of reasons I read for banning it.
Fortress | Sveet
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I may whine if some tournament bans a stage that doesn't deserve it, but my biggest issue is that the official ruleset bans all of these stages. Its much harder to get a tournament audience with a ruleset that adds stages than to get people to come to your tournament when you take off a CP or two. I live in the MW where jank stages are our forte and if someone adds pokefloats to the stage list everyone flips out.
I dont think the official MBR ruleset should remove all these stages because it limits the options for TOs. It should leave it up to the individual TOs to ban stages they don't like.
I dont think the official MBR ruleset should remove all these stages because it limits the options for TOs. It should leave it up to the individual TOs to ban stages they don't like.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
its been said many times....
mbr only makes guidelines. its always up to the TO.
so don't say anything like that anymore. TOs can do as they please.
mbr only makes guidelines. its always up to the TO.
so don't say anything like that anymore. TOs can do as they please.
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- 26,564
the MBR has an uncanny amount of influence over acceptable rule lists, though. everyone practices under the MBR rule list, so people are going to complain if there are many discrepancies with it.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
so what. even if mbr allows cps that are stupid. my guess its plairnk still won't use em.
in wa we don't use the mbr list.
the mbr doesn't have any actual power.
personally im ok with the list as is. im also ok with the same list with MC, JJ added and taking off kongo.
at the end of the day TOs do what they want. if people follow mbr stage lists then you can't get mad about it lol. cuz thats what the people want.
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,860
Kongo Jungle should be on the list as well.
The community community keep shrinking and tourney attendance keeps dropping. I think adding more stages(even if it's just in teams) would more help tourney attendance than hurt it.
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I think Melee needs more focus on teams.
Everyone's so focused on themselves, they're not being taught to focus on their friends. jk's, but it could be true maybe (applies to 1 guy I know).