Project M vs Melee

[trahhSTEEZY]

lol, oh.

10chars-

 

[Jonas]

Are you sure? Sometimes people confuse the 'List Of Things A Multi National Corporation Doesn't Want You To Do' with the actual law. I'm not so sure myself now that you bring it up, but I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for making video game mods. Hardware mods, on the other hand, can get you very big fines if you do something like enabling a console to run pirated games and selling it to someone.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Are you sure? Sometimes people confuse the 'List Of Things A Multi National Corporation Doesn't Want You To Do' with the actual law. I'm not so sure myself now that you bring it up, but I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for making video game mods. Hardware mods, on the other hand, can get you very big fines if you do something like enabling a console to run pirated games and selling it to someone.

That's the thing, nobody gets in trouble because nobody cares.
Of course companies would rather have the law there, (would you want people poking around in your coding?) but they aren't gonna try and track down people doing it.

 

[keeper]

Are you sure? Sometimes people confuse the 'List Of Things A Multi National Corporation Doesn't Want You To Do' with the actual law. I'm not so sure myself now that you bring it up, but I've never heard of anyone getting in trouble for making video game mods. Hardware mods, on the other hand, can get you very big fines if you do something like enabling a console to run pirated games and selling it to someone.

The legal fees versus what they'd actually get from suing someone doing it wouldn't be in the positives. If only the RIAA realized this they wouldn't be losing around 90+% on their lawsuits they've had against people with those thirty track playlists.

Edit: But yeah, they probably really don't care that much.

 

[Archangel]

Especially when he used your instead of you're. That just let me know he was trolling.
P.S. You weren't

Well someone took my post way too seriously. Btw are you hungrybox?

 

[Shell]

1. Project M will never be finished.

2. There will never be a competative scene for the non-official version of the game.

3. Melee has cool stages, 'nuff said.

4. They'll almost always have textures which 199% of the time look butt-ugly.

So plz no, it won't have an impact in a sense of people quitting melee and playing Project M.

I thought I'd respond to this since it seems like it represents most of the common fears and misconceptions.

1. Project M will go gold, at which time updates will be reduced to balance tweaks. We've learned a lot from the mistakes of Brawl+, that is, we know that when you release a project publicly you have to make minimal changes in order for the metagame to develop. For this, we're doing most of the development behind closed doors, inviting in a select few, including all of the Melee pros who are interested.

Once we have the core moveset of every character established, we'll release a public beta. With the feedback from the public beta we'll begin doing rough balance changes, examining matchups, culminating in the release of Gold. It's impossible to say exactly how long that will take -- it all depends on how balanced the game turns out to actually be, but I hope less than 6 months. So yes, the project will technically never be 'finished' because it'll be occasionally (once/6 months?) be updated with slightly improved balance. But that's a good thing.

You might ask yourself, 'how will you balance the game in a way that is fair?' We're already establishing good relationships with a variety of Melee Pros, listening to their feedback. When the time comes for fine tuning balance, we'll establish a 'Balance Team' of sorts within the PMBR, which will be made of a lot of those pros. There we'll establish a voting system, ultimately resulting in a series of small, conservative, but important updates which focus on evening out matchups worse than 70:30(ish) and generally removing any 'stoopid' things like any moves which autocombo into themselves or tactics which are out of balance with their counter tactics.... things like that.

Again, just to reiterate, by releasing the game into Public Beta at 80-90% complete rather than from the start, the community will have access to a product which is much more finalized than the changing face of B+ (no offense, B+). If we do our job right (and we're getting better and better at it), no one should have to relearn their character.

2. Even with all of the drastic changes B+ went through it developed a small competitive scene. By sticking to a well-defined vision from the beginning and limiting our changes after public release we will have a good chance at building a significant scene. And to the person on the first page who quoted the hill development of modded games (rise, acceptance, decline), that's the shape of any and every game (modded or not), any and every community. The real question is how wide that hill will be. The only thing I can say is that we're putting a lot of work into making every character have a wide variety of gameplay options and technical depth. Furthermore, we're slowly capturing the spontaneous, free-form nature of Melee's combos, where you'll still be discovering new tactics years from now.

3. Melee does have cool stages. By the time we're done, though, we'll have the most cooolestest stages of any smash game. We're replicating Dreamland, YS, FoD, FD, BF, and we've also got a few N64 stages in the works. Top that off with a variety of actually really solid modified Brawl stages and you have a massive selection of fun, competitive stages. In fact, the only problem we'll have is coming up with a totally new method of stage striking / counterpicking to deal with this huge number of great stages.

4. We're going to develop optional texture and sound packs once we've got the core game simmering in public release. You'll be able to have it your way.


And just to conclude this post /thread, no, Project M will not kill Melee nor did it ever have any intention of doing so. Our goal right now is for everyone to have a good time at Melee tournaments with Project M side tournaments. If anything, Project M has generated increased interest in Melee, as others have said. If we do a good enough job at replicating the feel of characters (and we're on the right track), then you'll never need to choose.

Just be warned that going back to a low tier character in Melee might make you a bit of a sad panda, though.

 

[Kanelol]

I thought I'd respond to this since it seems like it represents most of the common fears and misconceptions.

1. Project M will go gold, at which time updates will be reduced to balance tweaks. We've learned a lot from the mistakes of Brawl+, that is, we know that when you release a project publicly you have to make minimal changes in order for the metagame to develop. For this, we're doing most of the development behind closed doors, inviting in a select few, including all of the Melee pros who are interested.

Once we have the core moveset of every character established, we'll release a public beta. With the feedback from the public beta we'll begin doing rough balance changes, examining matchups, culminating in the release of Gold. It's impossible to say exactly how long that will take -- it all depends on how balanced the game turns out to actually be, but I hope less than 6 months. So yes, the project will technically never be 'finished' because it'll be occasionally (once/6 months?) be updated with slightly improved balance. But that's a good thing.

You might ask yourself, 'how will you balance the game in a way that is fair?' We're already establishing good relationships with a variety of Melee Pros, listening to their feedback. When the time comes for fine tuning balance, we'll establish a 'Balance Team' of sorts within the PMBR, which will be made of a lot of those pros. There we'll establish a voting system, ultimately resulting in a series of small, conservative, but important updates which focus on evening out matchups worse than 70:30(ish) and generally removing any 'stoopid' things like any moves which autocombo into themselves or tactics which are out of balance with their counter tactics.... things like that.

Again, just to reiterate, by releasing the game into Public Beta at 80-90% complete rather than from the start, the community will have access to a product which is much more finalized than the changing face of B+ (no offense, B+). If we do our job right (and we're getting better and better at it), no one should have to relearn their character.

2. Even with all of the drastic changes B+ went through it developed a small competitive scene. By sticking to a well-defined vision from the beginning and limiting our changes after public release we will have a good chance at building a significant scene. And to the person on the first page who quoted the hill development of modded games (rise, acceptance, decline), that's the shape of any and every game (modded or not), any and every community. The real question is how wide that hill will be. The only thing I can say is that we're putting a lot of work into making every character have a wide variety of gameplay options and technical depth. Furthermore, we're slowly capturing the spontaneous, free-form nature of Melee's combos, where you'll still be discovering new tactics years from now.

3. Melee does have cool stages. By the time we're done, though, we'll have the most cooolestest stages of any smash game. We're replicating Dreamland, YS, FoD, FD, BF, and we've also got a few N64 stages in the works. Top that off with a variety of actually really solid modified Brawl stages and you have a massive selection of fun, competitive stages. In fact, the only problem we'll have is coming up with a totally new method of stage striking / counterpicking to deal with this huge number of great stages.

4. We're going to develop optional texture and sound packs once we've got the core game simmering in public release. You'll be able to have it your way.


And just to conclude this post /thread, no, Project M will not kill Melee nor did it ever have any intention of doing so. Our goal right now is for everyone to have a good time at Melee tournaments with Project M side tournaments. If anything, Project M has generated increased interest in Melee, as others have said. If we do a good enough job at replicating the feel of characters (and we're on the right track), then you'll never need to choose.

Just be warned that going back to a low tier character in Melee might make you a bit of a sad panda, though.

****

/10reallygoodposts

 

[Jim Morrison]

Well someone took my post way too seriously. Btw are you hungrybox?

Only on fridays, I guess?

post

I was actually stereotyping the fears/misconceptions from anti-hackers, glad you got that.

One thing, when do you expect to release the first version of Project M? "Within 6 months" can be as much as tomorrow as it is january <_<

 

[mastermoo420]

I think that, for the hell of it, P:M should make the low tiers into the high tiers and completely freak everybody out. MK FOR MID TIER! :V

 

[Archangel]

I think that, for the hell of it, P:M should make the low tiers into the high tiers and completely freak everybody out. MK FOR MID TIER! :V

I won't say low/bottom tiers will be high however they definitely don't suck. Its hard to say who will end up were tbh. Former top/High tiers will be pretty much the same. Some(Captain Falcon for example) Will be slightly better than before. Other mid tier characters will also be slightly better. Low/Bottom tiers for the most part will be ALOT better. The balance won't exactly be done on purpose however Making every character Pretty good means much deeper competition. Instead of the same 4 or 5 dancing their way threw pools/Bracket into finals Everyone who plays any character will be a legit threat.

Then there is the matter of Meleefication. These characters present entirely new match-ups vs Each other and the former Melee cast. Wolf seems to hold up the tradition of being a **** spacey but he also holds the tradition of getting ***** do to hitstun and chain grabbed or something so who knows what'll happen but its interesting to contemplate.

 

[Strong Badam]

we'll be aiming for a Guilty Gear-level of balance, where every character is viable even if some are more than others.

 

[Pengie]

I gotta say that after playing Project M today, I'm really impressed. Switching between Melee Falco and Project M Falco felt pretty seamless in terms of tech skill. Everything was pretty much 100% transferable from shuffling to waveshining to JC Shines. Not to mention that Wolf is probably my new favorite character to toy around with. I absolutely love how they made him feel like a Melee character, and how creative the designers were with his little landcancel shine/JC blaster; it really felt fresh and I can't wait to play it again some time. In fact my only real gripe was that Wolf's jump seemed a bit slow. Apparently Dark Sonic told we that Wolf's jump is around 7-8 frames. I would really love to see that toned down to about five or six. Any way I'd really love to see this take off, and please everyone give it a chance, I love Melee as much as all of you (and probably hate brawl just as much if not more), but Project M is a great way to liven up this game and keep it fresh.

Also, I'm curious as to how long Project M has been in development.

 

[shanus]

I gotta say that after playing Project M today, I'm really impressed. Switching between Melee Falco and Project M Falco felt pretty seamless in terms of tech skill. Everything was pretty much 100% transferable from shuffling to waveshining to JC Shines. Not to mention that Wolf is probably my new favorite character to toy around with. I absolutely love how they made him feel like a Melee character, and how creative the designers were with his little landcancel shine/JC blaster; it really felt fresh and I can't wait to play it again some time. In fact my only real gripe was that Wolf's jump seemed a bit slow. Apparently Dark Sonic told we that Wolf's jump is around 7-8 frames. I would really love to see that toned down to about five or six. Any way I'd really love to see this take off, and please everyone give it a chance, I love Melee as much as all of you (and probably hate brawl just as much if not more), but Project M is a great way to liven up this game and keep it fresh.

Also, I'm curious as to how long Project M has been in development.

I think its been around 9 months now, but the first several were very casual with me and shell and camelot just toying around with changes.

Wolf's jump i think is 4-5 fr

 

[Pengie]

I think its been around 9 months now, but the first several were very casual with me and shell and camelot just toying around with changes.

Wolf's jump i think is 4-5 fr

Wow that's amazing, the game is very impressive, especially for still being pre beta. Keep up the great work guys!

As for Wolf's jump thing, thats strange because I was asking him if Wolf would be able to pressure a shield with landcanceled Shines and he said that there was an eight frame window where you could get grabbed. I thought that meant that Wolf had to wait 8 frames until he was airborne in order to do another landcanceled shine. That's great then I just thought that it was a bit odd that ANY character would have such a slow jump. One change that I would love to see is most characters having quick jumps that allow them to wavedash quickly. That way you don't end up with characters like Bowser whose wavedashes take forever.

Also, I'd ask this in the P:M in the Workshop, but since I'm already posting here, how much progress have you guys made with lightshielding?

 

[shanus]

Light shielding is a whole other beast as compared to light presses. Our current code for light presses fools the game into thinking its a full press thus allowing for light Lcancels, etc.

However, piping the fact that a button is pressed partially to individual character data from somewhere so elementary a button press has proven extremely complicated even for our best ASM coders.

 

[rhan]

LAAAAAAAAAAAAATE!

Rhan: I'm fairly surprised that a Young Link player doesn't think Melee is broken. Nonetheless, you are welcome to play and think whatever you want to.

I main Samus/Sheik/YLink. Honestly I like challenges. And I'm mostly know as me being a Young Link main. Though i'm trying to break that. But I just can't seem to drop the lil guy.

I thought the same things when I looked at Rhan's main. The only people who may think Melee is perfect have either not played with mid-bottom tiers at the highest lvl or Play Sheik, Fox, Falco, Jiggs at a high enough level to roll over everyone who isn't one of those 4.

I played Young Link at Pound 4 lmao. I played D'oh who is probably one of the best Peach players next to Armada. I reped Young Link against GERM and other Link pros. I played HBox before at HERB2 with Young Link. I PLAYED DR. PEEPEE WITH YOUNG LINK AT HERB2! (Lmao funny *** set). I played Cyrain's Fox awhile back in MM's v Young Link. I played against high level players. Didn't win but some were close and some were 2 stocks. and some were just horribly fun. I don't see this game as broke but nearly perfect.

 

[[TSON]]

My point was that it's still illegal, even if you aren't going to get in trouble for it.

No, it makes it a crime to circumvent anti-piracy measures built into most commercial software.

But we aren't circumventing anti-piracy measures, and for that reason, we're protected by Fair Use.

 

[Archangel]

we'll be aiming for a Guilty Gear-level of balance, where every character is viable even if some are more than others.

Guilty gear is a legit *** game. I'll take on anyone with Sol Badguy.

 

[Pengie]

LOL I love the Guilty Gear balancing mentality

"We'll make EVERYONE broken that way no one is broken by comparison, and thus we achieve balance!!!"

If Project: M turns up like that it'd be awesome.

 

[Strong Badam]

You can't really say everyone's broken in Guilty Gear, because "broken" usually means way better than everyone else. Everyone has ridiculous combos, though, yeah. I guess everyone's broken in SSB64?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No, it makes it a crime to circumvent anti-piracy measures built into most commercial software.

But we aren't circumventing anti-piracy measures, and for that reason, we're protected by Fair Use.

Oh, all right then

Can I ask a few questions about P:M?

How are the ICs going? Will they still have wobbling? Will they lose the ability to be on the same ledge?

Are you including Melee characters like Doc and Pichu? If so, how will Pichu be buffed?

 

[Archangel]

Oh, all right then

Can I ask a few questions about P:M?

How are the ICs going? Will they still have wobbling? Will they lose the ability to be on the same ledge?

Are you including Melee characters like Doc and Pichu? If so, how will Pichu be buffed?

honestly, IC's i'm not sure if they are done but I heard Chu tested out the game recently and loved it so i'm guessing they are still good. In fact they'll likely be slightly better then they were in Melee do to he fact that they can double grab the ledge.

As for now the Clone engine isn't working/implemented so no the fallen five are out(For now). Until then they have moved to combine similar characters like Mario for instance. Brawl Mario is currently 50% Mario 50% Doc and 100% ****! Toon link and Young Link's best attributes are combining also. If you really want to know about the game go to the Project M page and read up on it for yourself. Check especially on weekends to see if someone links a livestream page of testing.

Project M Page.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260812

Also of notability. Shanus, Dant, Magnus, & Windowl cracked Melee physics early today I believe so yeah.....PM should feel just like it now once this is implemented. :D

 

[samsonites101]

Melee will always be melee and most won't drop melee for another game. Although, that does not mean that people won't start playing Project M too! Ideally, it will be a true successor to Melee, and people will play both games! Dammit I cannot wait for the beta!!!

 

[Archangel]

Its going to play exactly like Melee once Shanus, Magnus....etc implement everything. :D Its a great day for Project M.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Its going to play exactly like Melee once Shanus, Magnus....etc implement everything. :D Its a great day for Project M.

no, it's literally impossible for it to be exactly like melee, you and all the developers know that. Now, they could make the concepts exactly the same sure, but for it to feel exactly the same would be near impossible, especially on two different engines.

 

[Archangel]

no, it's literally impossible for it to be exactly like melee, you and all the developers know that. Now, they could make the concepts exactly the same sure, but for it to feel exactly the same would be near impossible, especially on two different engines.

You must have misread what I said earlier so I'll repeat. They Cracked The Values of Melee physics from the DAT files. Meaning Each character will now move EXACTLY the same way as they did. Fall speed, Rolling, dodging, Jumping...pretty much everything. This all happened in the past 24 Hours. Shows you how fast things are progressing. So yeah it is no longer impossible for it to be exactly like melee because.....well....its gonna be lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

spam_arrows, we still haven't cracked landing detection, and as far as mechanics go there will be some differences.
as far as physics go, though, yeah. they'll be perfect.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

lol spam_arrows thats awesome news but in no way or shape does it mean it'll be identical. and look at you givin out faulty info! let the dev's do the facts

 

[Archangel]

lol spam_arrows thats awesome news but in no way or shape does it mean it'll be identical. and look at you givin out faulty info! let the dev's do the facts

I'm not giving out false info at all.

Mechanics do not = Physics.

 

[XkaruX]

The new camera sure makes everything look better, by the way.
I gotta admit this project is looking good

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I'm not giving out false info at all.

Mechanics do not = Physics.

Mechanics/physics both apply to making the game 'exactly' the same!

 

[Strong Badam]

as far as how the game "feels" though, it'll be the same.

 

[D1]

Me and NinjaLink play tested this today!

Definitely has somethings that need to be fixed, but overall the experience is pretty fun!

I'm still not sure who I'm gonna main...it might be Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik/Jiggz.

NL lookin like Lucas/Diddy/Pit/Ike/etc.

I think they should fix Yoshi's DJC though...

 

[shanus]

Me and NinjaLink play tested this today!

Definitely has somethings that need to be fixed, but overall the experience is pretty fun!

I'm still not sure who I'm gonna main...it might be Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik/Jiggz.

NL lookin like Lucas/Diddy/Pit/Ike/etc.

I think they should fix Yoshi's DJC though...

we are looking into a way to reprogram the DJC to be more melee-like in how much of the momentum kill is based of off how late you do the DJC in the animation

We will still keep it optional, of course, but we were looking into a complete DJC rewrite

 

[Fletch]

You must have misread what I said earlier so I'll repeat. They Cracked The Values of Melee physics from the DAT files. Meaning Each character will now move EXACTLY the same way as they did. Fall speed, Rolling, dodging, Jumping...pretty much everything. This all happened in the past 24 Hours. Shows you how fast things are progressing. So yeah it is no longer impossible for it to be exactly like melee because.....well....its gonna be lol.

How does this work for the new characters? Maybe there's something I don't understand.

 

[Archangel]

How does this work for the new characters? Maybe there's something I don't understand.

It is a process called Meleefication. Use your imagination.

 

[Byron 1337]

Pretty much means that every vharacter will more or less have the same physics. more or less

 

[Archangel]

Not only that. New characters will play at Melee speeds and be far far less floaty then you are use to seeing them. That and most will have additional changes and advance techniques of their own.

 

[Red the Ghost]

All I have to say is reading this thread has made me very happy in how seriously the coders are taking this project. I might even have to buy Brawl again! (Wow, I'm surprised I said that.)

Seriously, this is amazing to me and I would love to see what Brawl was supposed to be and more.

You guys are awesome.

I guess everyone's broken in SSB64?

LOL yeah, until you knock Link off the stage!

 

[[TSON]]

Also of notability. Shanus, Dant, Magus, & Windowl cracked Melee physics early today I believe so yeah.....PM should feel just like it now once this is implemented. :D

>_> I feel appreciated for getting most of the attributes labeled and for staying up until 7 AM doing so...:embarrass

no, it's literally impossible for it to be exactly like melee, you and all the developers know that. Now, they could make the concepts exactly the same sure, but for it to feel exactly the same would be near impossible, especially on two different engines.

They run on the same engine, or at least one very very very very very very VERY similar. Inputting the same values for KB and/or attributes in one game produces almost the same result in the other.

If you stuck around the IRC or read the Project M thread lately, you would know this already. :/