Project M vs Melee

[SAUS]

I agree, the game is definitely not finished. I predict a 4 year wait due to having to make 5 more characters, and I feel that some of the characters don't have their full melee playstyle... mainly the 3.0 characters (which if we go by pmbr's history, they usually fix a lot of the issues by the next patch). Amsa still uses lucario because parries don't work like in melee, and Darrel can't play aggressively with samus (I've seen him try it out; he has trouble timing samus's fast-falls) and Hbox is the only person I know who uses olimar. However, at the moment, I currently think that it's better than melee. Sure it isn't complete, and the game isn't fully balanced out, but I think that because all of the characters are more viable than the characters in the F and most of the B rank tier list in melee, it is more fun IMO to me because there is more variety. I can't wait to see what becomes of the game in the next year.

Variety doesn't trump depth. I'm not saying PM is not as deep as melee, but "it has more characters that are viable" does not make it a better game. For all you know, the game could slowly evolve to render over half the cast useless. How will it be fixed if that happens? Patches? Then you get a constantly imbalanced game like LoL where you only get to use a strong strategy for a month or two after its use in a major tournament. No one goes to figure out how to beat it, and so the game stays shallow.

I'm not saying this will happen, but "more viable characters" and "more variety" are not enough to make it better.

EDIT:
Reread what you wrote and noticed "it is more fun IMO to me". My bad if I sounded rude or anything lol. This is just my opinion, so read it as such.

 

[HypaSonic]

I remember playing Melee when I was just a kid, hours on end. I quit playing for awhile, (never competitively just for fun.) My disc was badly damaged so I couldn't play it. But then I got introduced to Brawl and loved it, (still love it today.) When I saw Project M for the first time, I decided to give it a shot. In which case was a great idea, it had taken me awhile to get used to, but eventually I transitioned well into, like had been playing Melee for years. I still kept my Brawl competitive play style, but developed a Melee like competitive play style. Basically reintroducing me back to Melee. Either way I like Project M and how's its developed, (especially since I can main Mario now) and hope it keeps developing with strong ambition.

 

[666blaziken]

Variety doesn't trump depth. I'm not saying PM is not as deep as melee, but "it has more characters that are viable" does not make it a better game. For all you know, the game could slowly evolve to render over half the cast useless. How will it be fixed if that happens? Patches? Then you get a constantly imbalanced game like LoL where you only get to use a strong strategy for a month or two after its use in a major tournament. No one goes to figure out how to beat it, and so the game stays shallow.

I'm not saying this will happen, but "more viable characters" and "more variety" are not enough to make it better.

EDIT:
Reread what you wrote and noticed "it is more fun IMO to me". My bad if I sounded rude or anything lol. This is just my opinion, so read it as such.

You make a really good point. The whole imbalance issue with lol was partially why brawl + was a failure. From what I've heard, they had the full roster, and they kept patching the game way to quickly, so the game became shallow. The way they handled project m was better. I also think that because they are using us as game testers, they have a connection to us from developer to player, and our feedback helps improve the game. Although the developers can sometimes be adamant, they do listen when they find proof that they made a flaw in developing the game. I love melee, and I use pikachu, but I like how project m is picking up where melee dropped off. My biggest hopes for the next patch is for the ssbm tether recoveries to be brought back, and for samus to be more like melee samus so more of my friends will play project m. What would you want in the next patch? You didn't sound rude at all btw.

 

[HypaSonic]

You make a really good point. The whole imbalance issue with lol was partially why brawl + was a failure. From what I've heard, they had the full roster, and they kept patching the game way to quickly, so the game became shallow. The way they handled project m was better. I also think that because they are using us as game testers, they have a connection to us from developer to player, and our feedback helps improve the game. Although the developers can sometimes be adamant, they do listen when they find proof that they made a flaw in developing the game. I love melee, and I use pikachu, but I like how project m is picking up where melee dropped off. My biggest hopes for the next patch is for the ssbm tether recoveries to be brought back, and for samus to be more like melee samus so more of my friends will play project m. What would you want in the next patch? You didn't sound rude at all btw.

A few good points made out, about how developers connect with the players. Grant it, not everyone's going to agree on a few things of Project M, but as far as it goes, the majority of the community agrees with each other about Project M.

 

[Jynx]

Bottom line is that I think we would prefer a hacked Smash that has a good sized audience than NO Smash at all.

 

[Drodeka]

At the Gamecluck's tourney this Saturday, I heard Prime saying his least favorite thing about the game was that it has too much freedom, and I see now (can't remember who, last page) saying that too many moves aren't punishable and what not. I understand where both of these opinions come from, but these are both due to the roster being buffed as a whole.

See, in melee, the top tier characters all had this much freedom, while the rest of the cast had to work for every single hit they land. Now, it's just that almost the entire roster has the freedom of the Melee top tiers. If you love melee, it's a bit ironic this would bother you in PM, however I also think I would prefer a better medium. By this I mean:

I don't think they should have balanced the entire cast according to the melee top tiers, but rather buff the low and mid tiers to a reasonable level and then balance the few top tiers to that level as well.

Because think about it, even though ProjectM is trying to balance people based on how good the melee top tiers are, Fox is always going to be at the top unless something is done about it. Sorry if you don't think Fox needs nerfs, but I think it's silly to try and balance an entire roster to put them in his league instead of balancing him to be put into theirs.
EDIT: DON'T put words in my mouth. I don't think Fox needs to lose his shine or anything crazy, but literally just changing how hard some of his attacks hit would be a great start that wouldn't change how he feels when played at all. Really, the PAL edition of Melee did this a long time ago, which was a fine idea.

 

[Empyrean]

I don't think Smashboards has yet seen a bump of such epic proportions. Like seriously, 4 ****ing years?

 

[T-R3X]

At the Gamecluck's tourney this Saturday, I heard Prime saying his least favorite thing about the game was that it has too much freedom, and I see now (can't remember who, last page) saying that too many moves aren't punishable and what not. I understand where both of these opinions come from, but these are both due to the roster being buffed as a whole.

See, in melee, the top tier characters all had this much freedom, while the rest of the cast had to work for every single hit they land. Now, it's just that almost the entire roster has the freedom of the Melee top tiers. If you love melee, it's a bit ironic this would bother you in PM, however I also think I would prefer a better medium. By this I mean:

I don't think they should have balanced the entire cast according to the melee top tiers, but rather buff the low and mid tiers to a reasonable level and then balance the few top tiers to that level as well.

Because think about it, even though ProjectM is trying to balance people based on how good the melee top tiers are, Fox is always going to be at the top unless something is done about it. Sorry if you don't think Fox needs nerfs, but I think it's silly to try and balance an entire roster to put them in his league instead of balancing him to be put into theirs.
EDIT: DON'T put words in my mouth. I don't think Fox needs to lose his shine or anything crazy, but literally just changing how hard some of his attacks hit would be a great start that wouldn't change how he feels when played at all. Really, the PAL edition of Melee did this a long time ago, which was a fine idea.

What you say is true but what it really boils down to in regards to top tiers vs low tiers (in melee) is the number of options top tiers have. No matter how hard he tries, ganondorf is just not very good at camping people. He is pretty good at shutting down approaches and boxing people into corners, though, so that's why his playstyles might not have so much diversity as that of a fox or falco main. That being said in order to fully balance the game one would have to either take away options from a high tier character (let's make fox's shine SDI-able or something so that if you sdi he doesn't get as free follow ups) or add options to a lower tier character (let's give yoshi the ability to jump out of shield).

The alternative is to buff/nerf the existing options: one could make firefox shorter (as mentioned in your comparison with PAL) just as well as one could make Bowser hit harder. In my opinion the reality is such that, no matter what, without changing characters a LOT (you don't think Fox needs to lose his shine but to lose follow ups from shine, for example, would nerf him greatly and change the way he is played completely even if he can still shine spike and if it's still jump cancellable and can be used to escape combos among many other things). The tiers will always exist due to players wanting the game to still have a semblance towards melee (which I like) and honestly it's not awful for non spacies if you consider top placings at melee and PM tournaments. The lowest mid tiers and low tiers aren't viable in melee (kirby, g&w, pichu, etc.), but perhaps those characters DO need some major reworks. Some mid tiers (like Ganondorf) have received the ideal amount of buff, in my opinion.

 

[Drodeka]

What you say is true but what it really boils down to in regards to top tiers vs low tiers (in melee) is the number of options top tiers have.

Exactly what I meant by freedom.

I agree with the rest of your post as well.

 

[HypaSonic]

Bottom line is that I think we would prefer a hacked Smash that has a good sized audience than NO Smash at all.

Ill agree with you on that part that some people do, (I had one friend that like Melee but thought Project M was superior). I like Project M for what it is, but in the end for me the originals will always be the best, be it 64, Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4.

 

[666blaziken]

I don't think Smashboards has yet seen a bump of such epic proportions. Like seriously, 4 ****ing years?

You have me to thank. I was curious about what people thought about project M in comparison to melee. I saw this thread, and I was surprised that nobody posted in 4 years. So I commented based on how far PM has gone.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't think Smashboards has yet seen a bump of such epic proportions. Like seriously, 4 ****ing years?

*ahem*

http://smashboards.com/threads/yeah-right-umbreonmow-that-fox-is-better-than-sheik.23971/

Epic 12 year bump right here yo.

 

[Kadano]

Melee IS NOT a perfect game. Many of the characters are considered un-usable in competitive play, which immediately ruins the title of perfect.

What kind of argument is that?
Let’s assume all playable characters in Melee were Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Jigglypuff and Peach. All of them are considered usable in competitive play.
So if we only had these six characters, the title of perfect would be appropriate? But if Sakurai decided “Hey, let’s add Mr. Game & Watch as an easter egg for our very old Nintendo fans, but make him pretty bad so he doesn’t break the game”, that addition alone would suddenly ruin the perfection? I can’t get behind this line of thought.

 

[Empyrean]

*ahem*

http://smashboards.com/threads/yeah-right-umbreonmow-that-fox-is-better-than-sheik.23971/

Epic 12 year bump right here yo.

Actually, that was an 8-year necro, someone replied in 2010. Still, holy ****, talk about moving on, lmao.

 

[Drodeka]

What kind of argument is that?
Let’s assume all playable characters in Melee were Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Jigglypuff and Peach. All of them are considered usable in competitive play.
So if we only had these six characters, the title of perfect would be appropriate? But if Sakurai decided “Hey, let’s add Mr. Game & Watch as an easter egg for our very old Nintendo fans, but make him pretty bad so he doesn’t break the game”, that addition alone would suddenly ruin the perfection? I can’t get behind this line of thought.

No. Having only six playable characters in the year of 2001 would already take it from perfect. By the way, since perfection is not an actual, possible thing to achieve (since no human can ever know what that is or do it), you have to know the title "perfect" when speaking about anything is subjective. When people say melee is perfect, they usual mean it is their favorite fighting game and/or that it is the best fighting game. However, having 25 characters and being able to only use a handful of them in competitive play takes away from the games ability to be considered ACTUALLY perfect in a competitive sense, and I feel that should be taken into consideration when deciding to call the game perfect.

When people say Melee is perfect, they can also mean that it is perfectly competitive. Also not so. In a perfect (balanced) competition, there would be absolutely zero advantages for either opponent going into a fight. Jousting or fencing for example. However, due to Melee being a video game, with a variety of stages and characters, unless two people are playing the same character, there is always going to be at least a slight advantage to the player with the better matchup, whether it be by character or stage pick. This is NOT competitive perfection.

That is not to say that it needs to be, or even needs to try to be. I was simply meaning that the character roster being largely unplayable in competitive environments puts the largest and most immediate hole in the game, competitively.

TL;DR
The character roster problem isn't what makes the game not perfect, you just assumed I meant it was the only problem the game has that makes it not perfect, when really it was just the example I decided to use.

 

[Game Freak201]

Project M is extensively played in my college often, to the point where I feel that it is played more often than Melee. After experiencing both games for a long time, I feel that I prefer Melee as opposed to Project M.

While many posters here state that they prefer Project M due to its more varied list of viable characters, I prefer having to deal with a smaller roster of tournament viable characters since it allows me to study those few match-ups with more depth while also giving me time to study and improve on my main. Meanwhile, I tend to be thrown into the loop any time I have to go up against a new character, a fact which happens often when I play Project M. Whenever I play Melee, it feels like I'm refining my main as opposed to Project M where I have to continually learn more and more match-ups. I rather spend my time improving my own character as opposed to learning how to deal with fighting more characters.

Another thing about Project M is the subtle changes they did to some of the Melee veterans. I mained Marth in Melee, and he underwent some minor changes when he went into Project M such as his wake-up attacks; however, the biggest change which made me drop Marth in Project M is his Up-B. The difference between Marth's recoveries in both games was too much for me and often made me miss sweet-spotting the ledge. I now main Meta Knight and enjoy his fast-paced play style. Being able to pressure my opponent with my fast and deadly moves is cathartic when compared to Marth's slower attacks. In addition, he also has a good tech-chase game when using d-throw so that I don't have to give that aspect of my play style up. While what I have been mentioning here is not really a problem with Project M per se, it is another reason why I prefer Melee over Project M.

 

[Drodeka]

I have been wanting to get back into Melee for the reason Game Freak said, Falcon is in both games and it would be a better training ground due to the smaller roster. However, I would much prefer to be involved in the Project M competitive scene, because I like the way the game feels and the smoother movements (mainly turning around while in place) have become natural to me.

There are several things I want changed about Project M (recoveries, training tools), but as a whole it is the game I like to play in a serious manner more.

Today marks the 6th time I've forgotten my copy of Melee at the same friends house, after reminding myself every time upon arrival to grab it before I leave. I suck.

 

[Game Freak201]

That's strange that you think Project M is smoother than Melee, Drodeka. Whenever I play Marth in Project M, he feels stiffer than his Melee counterpart. He he seems to have smoother wave dashes in Melee. In addition, I have an easier time WDing to the ledge in Melee than I do in Project M where I sometimes find myself just WDing by a ledge and overshooting it.

 

[Warhawk]

I'm quite certain there's still a one frame delay on movement inputs such as short-hops and dashes in Project M so I would argue its not as smooth if anything. Because of this I actively avoid any character that I actually play in Melee because they feel clunky in Project M.

 

[Drodeka]

It's the turn-around rules that really get me. In PM I can dash in the opposite direction I'm facing without problems, but in Melee my character always turns around in place and gets me stuck.

Warhawk, my only argument is that the frame delay doesn't effect how smooth the game is, only how responsive it is. I agree with you, just saying that smooth isn't the right word to use there.

 

[MysticSkarps]

I don't care whether or not Project M is a hack or not.It's a great game. But it could never replace the game it was designed to imitate.

 

[Spak]

I don't care whether or not Project M is a hack or not.It's a great game. But it could never replace the game it was designed to imitate.

Depends upon your idea of a perfect or near-perfect Smash. PM is overall more balanced than Melee (considering the entire cast), has more characters, has a flash whenever you L-cancel for training, has more legal stages, and is constantly being patched and updated. That being said, some people (such as myself) prefer a game that is ensured to never change so anything that works at the moment will work forever (if it is properly executed). Also, Melee has no lenient buffer frames like PM and I personally think it feels tighter because it isn't altering an existing game's physics engine to resemble the original's physics.

 

[ItsChon]

I don't care whether or not Project M is a hack or not.It's a great game. But it could never replace the game it was designed to imitate.

That bump on a 7 month old thread. Gotta love it.

 

[Nefnoj]

I don't care whether or not Project M is a hack or not.It's a great game. But it could never replace the game it was designed to imitate.

I feel like the biggest problem here is that it's assumed that Project M is a copy of Melee, I don't see it that way. It appears that the Project M team are (now) trying to make a brand new Smash game, with their own vision, their own ideas, and all that. Of course, given that this discussions was from five years ago, it's possible that it started as a Melee clone... But it ain't anymore.

That bump on a 7 month old thread. Gotta love it.

Five months later here.

 

[666blaziken]

It's been a while since I commented on this thread, but after 3.5 came out, I realized how toxic 3.0 was in comparison to melee. The best characters (in comparison to everyone else) could combo like falcon and recover like puff with the ease of sheik. 3.5 is much better, but I still stand that the game still isn't finished. The physics engine still has that brawl physics delay by one frame, and tethers are kind of janky. These are problems the PMDT has been having difficulty due to coding limitations, so it's hard to really blame them for it. But I think I am done trying to decide which game is better. I love both PM and melee, and arguing for one means I have to defend the other and I don't like having to attack either game for their flaws, so I just put them in the same catagory and play them equally.

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

I like pm because I can play kirbz and use a viable character at the same time. I just like how pretty much every character is competitively viable, while less than half the melee cast is viable

 

[Narpas_sword]

Also, Melee has no lenient buffer frames like PM .

PM has no buffer frames.


The biggest problem melee players have with PM, in my experience, is just stuff they make up/ misunderstand.

Unfortunately, trying to discuss it logically just gets melee purists irate.

 

[Spak]

PM has no buffer frames.


The biggest problem melee players have with PM, in my experience, is just stuff they make up/ misunderstand.

Unfortunately, trying to discuss it logically just gets melee purists irate.

I know, StrongBad corrected me on this a few months ago.

Why was this thread bumped again?

 

[Narpas_sword]

I know, StrongBad corrected me on this a few months ago.

Why was this thread bumped again?

uhg, sorry, didnt see the date >_<

 

[Spak]

uhg, sorry, didnt see the date >_<

It's fine. You couldn't have known StrongBad pointed it out and someone who came later could have been misled from my previous post, so I don't blame you.

 

[masterpad]

Hello everybody

The only thing i will say is : Project M is not Mélée but is better than mélée.
The two things that can be consider as cons about PM are:
- the fact that it is not an official nintendo game so it COULD be put aside of major tournament (EVO) forever
- The fact that the devteam do not let enough time for the player to adapt to the difficulties in the metagame, and produce patch taht always modified the players, can legitimatly be an issue to invest time in PM.

But what a delightfull game! i still play mélée only because it is an unvoidable smash in tournaments

 

[_A1]

If people cared so much about balance and extra characters, then Melee players would have switched over. There are still a lot of Melee players who use bad characters and they can enjoy the game just as much as Fox players.

I think PM is better. But personally I like Melee better cause the physics feel so smooth. PM Falco is a huge turnoff for me; feels like crap imo.

 

[Narpas_sword]

I think PM is better. But personally I like Melee better cause the physics feel so smooth. PM Falco is a huge turnoff for me; feels like crap imo.

Thats just you being used to one way rather than the other.
To me, Melee physics feel awful.

 

[_A1]

Thats just you being used to one way rather than the other.
To me, Melee physics feel awful.

Nah bruh. I played PM first and yet I like Melee's physics better. Although I see what you're saying and that's completely fair. It might also be that it varies from character to character, cause Samus is a lot different from Falco.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Nah bruh. I played PM first and yet I like Melee's physics better. Although I see what you're saying and that's completely fair. It might also be that it varies from character to character, cause Samus is a lot different from Falco.

well bruh, i played melee first, since release lol.

you CAN get used to something that differs to your first.

 

[_A1]

This seems subjective, and it mostly is. But the difference is that Melee really should feel better. The PM Devs put Melee techs in an originally Brawl engine. You can't expect the same flow and smoothness from a PM waveland compared to the natural Melee waveland. Spacies feel this way the most strongly. Look at Hax in Melee, then look at him in PM. Fox is pretty much the same character, but the Melee version looks and feels way more crisp.

 

[Narpas_sword]

This seems subjective, and it mostly is. But the difference is that Melee really should feel better. The PM Devs put Melee techs in an originally Brawl engine. You can't expect the same flow and smoothness from a PM waveland compared to the natural Melee waveland. Spacies feel this way the most strongly. Look at Hax in Melee, then look at him in PM. Fox is pretty much the same character, but the Melee version looks and feels way more crisp.

That reasoning is absurd.

for one, wavedashing was intentionall left in melee, not intentionally made , unlike PM.

you then go on to say 'look at someone who plays melee play melee better than they play pm'

you have to see that holds no value...

 

[_A1]

That reasoning is absurd.

for one, wavedashing was intentionall left in melee, not intentionally made , unlike PM.

you then go on to say 'look at someone who plays melee play melee better than they play pm'

you have to see that holds no value...

The Devs certainly made wavelanding in PM, but they didn't replicate the same fluidity of the Melee waveland.

Fox is the same in both games which have the same essential mechanics, so how does Hax look so much smoother in Melee? Because the engine is just smoother. Simple as that.

 

[Kadano]

Project M demands less from your hands than Melee since dash and smash inputs are registered earlier, so for people like M2K who have hand problems or want to use different button maps it’s a great alternative.

I said it before and it still stands: I don’t like the Brawl newcomer characters nor the Brawl textures and character models nor the sound effects. In these regards, PM feels like a caricature of Melee to me and I can’t take it seriously since I constantly have to laugh about the weird sounds. For example, when Ganondorf dies, his dying shout continues past the point he has already respawned. It’s a small detail, but nonsensical things like that do matter to me.

My point is that people have all kinds of different reasons for liking or disliking PM or Melee or any other game, some even as outlandish as mine. Trying to convince others that your game is superior for whatever reasons is futile and counter-productive.

 

[Narpas_sword]

The Devs certainly made wavelanding in PM, but they didn't replicate the same fluidity of the Melee waveland.

Fox is the same in both games which have the same essential mechanics, so how does Hax look so much smoother in Melee? Because the engine is just smoother. Simple as that.

You've lost me.

You say hes the same, but it's different?
make up your mind.

1: he looks smoother in melee because he's used to it.
2: please define how an engine is 'smoother' you're just giving examples of what you see. no actual definition. this is just straight up confirmation bias.

Id really like to have this conversation with someone, discussing differences. But every time it just comes down to melee defenders saying things that are simply not able to be backed up.