Project M vs Melee

[Narpas_sword]

Pm took it too far and changed character statistics. It's not smash guys, it's a mod

Explain what got taken to far.
How did it get taken too far?
If they shouldn't change character stats, what would be left to change? you'd just have brawl characters in melee physics.

how is it 'not smash'?
why does it being a mod change anything?

 

[Eelo Enous]

But PM didn't balance out everyone, it only made characters more viable, and even then there are still clear disparity amongst characters. ZSS, for example, struggles with fast-fallers and disjoints. Fast-fallers like Fox and Falco, change up how ZSS has to play due to a lot of her combos not working properly on them. Marth and Roy beat her out due to their better range, again, forcing the ZSS player to think differently about their approach.

The only way PM, or any game for that matter, could achieve true balance is if every character were the exact same. Considering PM is trying to make each character unique, no matter how much they balance it, one character is going to be more advantageous against another, forcing the disadvantaged player to figure out how to beat the advantaged one; basically like Melee...

And what does being a mod have to do with anything?

But how do you make people viable? You have to increase and decrease stats

 

[Eelo Enous]

But PM didn't balance out everyone, it only made characters more viable, and even then there are still clear disparity amongst characters. ZSS, for example, struggles with fast-fallers and disjoints. Fast-fallers like Fox and Falco, change up how ZSS has to play due to a lot of her combos not working properly on them. Marth and Roy beat her out due to their better range, again, forcing the ZSS player to think differently about their approach.

The only way PM, or any game for that matter, could achieve true balance is if every character were the exact same. Considering PM is trying to make each character unique, no matter how much they balance it, one character is going to be more advantageous against another, forcing the disadvantaged player to figure out how to beat the advantaged one; basically like Melee...

And what does being a mod have to do with anything?

You are right to an extent, it's true that pm has made changes to the game and that is what I'm talking about. If someone makes changes to your brothers painting, it's not his painting. Melee was melee and Pm will never be melee because it's not melee. Have you seen pikachu's back air?

 

[Narpas_sword]

True balance will never be achieved unless you have a single character in match-up with themselves. Otherwise, you will almost always have ways to leverage advantages against your opponent in varying degrees. The question is whether or not those advantages and disparities are too great across the "best" and "worst" characters in the game.

In the scope of the top 6 characters in Melee, the game is quite balanced. There has been a ton of back and forth between Jiggs, Fox, Falco, Sheik, PEach, and Marth for years. Its enough variety I think to many to keep playing the game. Plus, there are enough other "viable" characters when you allow for disparity in skill between players to make appearances.

P:M seems to never show signs of allowing itself to reach that equilibrium where you know who are the good/bad characters. Its continually in a state of doing the next balance patch.

I do think that the fact its a mod greatly limits its area of influence. Constant patching is going to stagnant the player base in some areas because they have to relearn new things frequently. As far as I know P:M operates on the premise of file replacement. This means you are getting altered files from someone else who ended up ripping those files from the game. This is will continue to be a gray area and the game will likely never see the recognition at major sponsored events like EVO. This limits the games potential growth.

Melee on the other hand not only operate in underground tournaments, but has the possibility to be recognized by Nintendo and reach a larger audience.

The point about melee being balanced in the scope of top 6 characters is hilarious. I know what you meant though.

You say it never seems to show signs of reaching an equilibrium.
Do you think that a year or more is too long to find these things? Some things can stick out like a sore thumb. Other things may take a while but can be found.

PMDT don't make a snap decision based on player feedback, they put things into their own testing scenarios, look at all their data and make small changes in amongst others to bring everything towards the correct goal.

Conjstant patching is frequent in many competitive games, i can hardly believe this is really an issue.
It's possibly an 'easy out' excuse. but i don't think it's really an issue.

Recognized by nintendo is another point hardly worth consideration. Remember how melee got to where it is now. it's only recently that nintendo hopped on the bandwagon. and that's primarily to promote their NEW game, not to get melee players playing.

You are right to an extent, it's true that pm has made changes to the game and that is what I'm talking about. If someone makes changes to your brothers painting, it's not his painting. Melee was melee and Pm will never be melee because it's not melee. Have you seen pikachu's back air?

PM isnt TRYING to be melee.

 

[Eelo Enous]

Explain what got taken to far.
How did it get taken too far?
If they shouldn't change character stats, what would be left to change? you'd just have brawl characters in melee physics.

how is it 'not smash'?
why does it being a mod change anything?

Dude, come on. You said it yourself. "Brawl in melee physics" is what it was supposed to be. But they didn't stop there. They changed things. And that's what makes it a different game to smash

 

[Narpas_sword]

You are right to an extent, it's true that pm has made changes to the game and that is what I'm talking about. If someone makes changes to your brothers painting, it's not his painting. Melee was melee and Pm will never be melee because it's not melee. Have you seen pikachu's back air?

Dude, come on. You said it yourself. "Brawl in melee physics" is what it was supposed to be. But they didn't stop there. They changed things. And that's what makes it a different game to smash

'supposed to be' you say?

http://projectmgame.com/en/about

"Project M is a community-made mod of Brawl inspired by Super Smash Bros. Melee's gameplay designed to add rich, technical gameplay to a balanced cast of characters while additionally enhancing the speed of play. Project M employs new codes which seamlessly add in new, universal features to the entire cast to add technical variety to all characters."


Where, pray tell, does it say ' Project M is about having the exact character movesets from brawl, with melee physics'?

The project started out by trying to revert falcos shine to be the one from melee.
The first change was a moveset change.

 

[Eelo Enous]

[quote="


PM isnt TRYING to be melee.[/quote]
Dude, it's a melee alternative for people who want brawl with melee physics. This was made because nobody liked brawl and continued to play melee. Thus you have PM. An alternative to melee with new characters and stages with a tournament friendly stage choosing thing. We all hoped the new smash would be like melee with new characters right? Because melee was the game to be played back then. Well because brawl wasn't, pm was made. You seeing the picture? So ultimately what it was supposed to be is brawl with melee physics. They didn't have to change the things they did

AND, I hope you see now why people say it's a whole different game. You aren't playing smash, you're playing project MELEE

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

My take on the patches is the fact that characters are changing over enough iterations that the character you might have been playing 2-3 years ago is no longer the same or different enough. While some changes are small others add up over time.


Snake has probably been one of the most changed characters despite being in one of the very first ever demos of P:M that I personally remember seeing. P:M at 2.0 or 2.5 from what I remember still had some unreleased characters to deal with as well which meant another metagame change would occur by having more characters. Two major changes later we saw 3.0, 3.5, and an expected 3.6 in future. When is there going to be a final build?


Another aspect of this is similar to how Windows pretty much forces everyone to upgrade every few years to a new OS. Your P:M 2.0 is now obsolete compared to 3.5 despite what changes you might have liked or disliked.


I do not find the P:M/Melee tournament setting to be a mute point. Apex 2015 puts the idea forth Nintendo's partnership for that tournament might be in part why P:M was absent or why P:M might never find a home at EVO which is an outside community organization. P:M is a gray area for the moment. Melee started out as underground, but it was always had legitmate potential. P:M is still hampered by that legal aspect to outside organizations. P:M might reach something someday, but I believe it be at a slower pace than Melee.

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

True balance will never be achieved unless you have a single character in match-up with themselves. Otherwise, you will almost always have ways to leverage advantages against your opponent in varying degrees. The question is whether or not those advantages and disparities are too great across the "best" and "worst" characters in the game.

In the scope of the top 6 characters in Melee, the game is quite balanced. There has been a ton of back and forth between Jiggs, Fox, Falco, Sheik, PEach, and Marth for years. Its enough variety I think to many to keep playing the game. Plus, there are enough other "viable" characters when you allow for disparity in skill between players to make appearances.

P:M seems to never show signs of allowing itself to reach that equilibrium where you know who are the good/bad characters. Its continually in a state of doing the next balance patch.

I do think that the fact its a mod greatly limits its area of influence. Constant patching is going to stagnant the player base in some areas because they have to relearn new things frequently. As far as I know P:M operates on the premise of file replacement. This means you are getting altered files from someone else who ended up ripping those files from the game. This is will continue to be a gray area and the game will likely never see the recognition at major sponsored events like EVO. This limits the games potential growth.

Melee on the other hand not only operate in underground tournaments, but has the possibility to be recognized by Nintendo and reach a larger audience.

Maybe Sega will help us out

 

[Dolla Pills]

Everyone face it, pm balanced out everybody. So the only thing standing between you and the other player now are how well you play the game. Unlike in melee where you need to figure out how to beat the other players unbalanced advantages. That's what made it melee. Pm took it too far and changed character statistics. It's not smash guys, it's a mod

Actually there's a lot of match up knowledge that you need to be good at PM. Like if I came from Melee I have no idea what the **** to do against Sonic and I get completely bodied even though I'm a better player. Similar things can happen in Melee when fighting against a low tier that you've never fought before, although I'd say this is much more relevant in PM.

 

[Kurri ★]

But how do you make people viable? You have to increase and decrease stats

Yeah... Your point?

You are right to an extent, it's true that pm has made changes to the game and that is what I'm talking about. If someone makes changes to your brothers painting, it's not his painting. Melee was melee and Pm will never be melee because it's not melee. Have you seen pikachu's back air?

I'm not understanding your point here...

AND, I hope you see now why people say it's a whole different game. You aren't playing smash, you're playing project MELEE

Well considering it was never meant to be Melee, just taking the gameplay and putting it in Brawl while making some things easier (i.e. L-Cancelling), it is a different game. It's still a Smash game however, just an unofficial one.

 

[Eelo Enous]

Yeah... Your point?


I'm not understanding your point here...


Well considering it was never meant to be Melee, just taking the gameplay and putting it in Brawl while making some things easier (i.e. L-Cancelling), it is a different game. It's still a Smash game however, just an unofficial one.

its a popular knock off

 

[tauKhan]

Well considering it was never meant to be Melee, just taking the gameplay and putting it in Brawl while making some things easier (i.e. L-Cancelling)

L-canceling is not easier in pm, it's the same window. Though the landing detection system is more accurate in pm, so that may make it a little bit easier to learn in some cases.

In fact, very few non-char specific melee techs are actually easier in pm, off the top of my head, the 2 common things that are really easier are short hopping and dash pivot.

http://smashboards.com/threads/differences-between-pm-and-melee.395163/#post-18784714

 

[Kurri ★]

its a popular knock off

Knock Off: (noun) a copy or imitation, especially of an expensive or designer product.

Project M is inspired from, not an imitation of. Despite taking a lot from Melee, it's not trying to trick you into thinking it's Melee, it's striving for it's own identity, separate from Melee.

L-canceling is not easier in pm, it's the same window. Though the landing detection system is more accurate in pm, so that may make it a little bit easier to learn in some cases.

In fact, very few non-char specific melee techs are actually easier in pm, off the top of my head, the 2 common things that are really easier are short hopping and dash pivot.

http://smashboards.com/threads/differences-between-pm-and-melee.395163/#post-18784714

Really? All this time I've been told the window was larger.

 

[Bones0]

Knock Off: (noun) a copy or imitation, especially of an expensive or designer product.

Project M is inspired from, not an imitation of. Despite taking a lot from Melee, it's not trying to trick you into thinking it's Melee, it's striving for it's own identity, separate from Melee.

It's debatable. They started Project: M by trying to copy every single detail from the Melee top tiers. Obviously they changed the Brawl characters to fall more in line and made some changes to Melee chars, but the vast majority of the game is designed to work exactly like Melee. Everything from frame data and stage dimensions to the physics engine and mechanics is based on, not simply influenced by, Melee. If someone made an almost exact replica of an iPhone and added a few new apps, you would still consider it a knock off.

 

[Kurri ★]

It's debatable. They started Project: M by trying to copy every single detail from the Melee top tiers. Obviously they changed the Brawl characters to fall more in line and made some changes to Melee chars, but the vast majority of the game is designed to work exactly like Melee. Everything from frame data and stage dimensions to the physics engine and mechanics is based on, not simply influenced by, Melee. If someone made an almost exact replica of an iPhone and added a few new apps, you would still consider it a knock off.

Depends, is that phone saying "I'm an iPhone" or is it saying "I'm something else"? The thing about knock-offs is that whatever they're mimicking, they're trying to say they're exactly that, despite being obviously different. The infamous Polystation is just that, copying the shape, logo, name, etc of the original Playstation and trying to sell itself as such.

Spoiler

But it's not a Playstation, it's a cheaply made product out to make a quick buck. Project M on the other hand, while taking many things from Melee, is not selling itself as Melee; it's still attempting to be it's own entity. It's why they dropped the whole Project Melee moniker, it's why they have their logo as:

Spoiler

and not similar to Melee's. It's why many characters work differently from Melee. This is all done because it's not trying to knock off Melee, it's trying to be Project M.

Regarding your phone example. Yeah it is a knock off. However if you change the presentation and how things work, you can get a wholly new product, like an android.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Yes, and it also pays to remember that the M doesn't stand for melee.

All I've seen these past few pages Is melee supporters arguing against pm using false information.

As I said, most people who don't like it simply don't understand it, and haven't put near enough time into it to understand it.

 

[Eelo Enous]

All of you are missing the point. Just because they say it's "inspired" doesn't mean it is. They could be saying that to avoid legal obstacles. The truth is that they made it to make brawl like melee. Why? Everyone loved melee. You guys must stop going into such detail to prove a point. If you have to do that over a small topic, then surely you are wrong. You might be right about little details but the big picture is that pm was made to be like melee. But because they changed more than the mechanics, it is its own game. Unofficial and a replica. No matter what you say it will remain a copy.

 

[Eelo Enous]

Yes, and it also pays to remember that the M doesn't stand for melee.

All I've seen these past few pages Is melee supporters arguing against pm using false information.

As I said, most people who don't like it simply don't understand it, and haven't put near enough time into it to understand it.

Boy. I played pm for 3 months before I played melee. I know what I'm talking about. And you can even feel a difference

 

[Narpas_sword]

Lol 3 months.

 

[Kurri ★]

As I said, most people who don't like it simply don't understand it, and haven't put near enough time into it to understand it.

Well I don't think that's fair to say. There's certainly more reason to not like PM than not having played it much.

All of you are missing the point. Just because they say it's "inspired" doesn't mean it is. They could be saying that to avoid legal obstacles. The truth is that they made it to make brawl like melee. Why? Everyone loved melee. You guys must stop going into such detail to prove a point. If you have to do that over a small topic, then surely you are wrong. You might be right about little details but the big picture is that pm was made to be like melee. But because they changed more than the mechanics, it is its own game. Unofficial and a replica. No matter what you say it will remain a copy.

You know, being a mod already puts them in a gray area; there's no malicious intent saying it's "inspired."

Like Melee does not mean is Melee, nor does it mean it's a knock-off of Melee. An Android is like an iPhone, yet it is not an iPhone, it's an Android.

Considering you haven't posted any worthwhile reasons, I'm going to say you're wrong.

 

[Eelo Enous]

Well I don't think that's fair to say. There's certainly more reason to not like PM than not having played it much.


You know, being a mod already puts them in a gray area; there's no malicious intent saying it's "inspired."

Like Melee does not mean is Melee, nor does it mean it's a knock-off of Melee. An Android is like an iPhone, yet it is not an iPhone, it's an Android.

Considering you haven't posted any worthwhile reasons, I'm going to say you're wrong.

I'm going to say you are stupid. I'm not saying project m is a bad game and nobody should play it, I'm saying people should get it in their heads that it can't be official or treated as official

What it boils down to is that it's a mod

And you, Kurri. You use big words to make your self sound smart. Truth is you're average. Am I wrong? I can use big words too you know? I have an English scholarship with various institutions.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Just use the edit the button.

 

[Manaconda]

And you, Kurri. You use big words to make your self sound smart. Truth is you're average. Am I wrong? I can use big words too you know? I have an English scholarship with various institutions.

This whole thread has been kind of boring so far, but I did get a pretty big laugh out of this comment.

 

[Kurri ★]

And you, Kurri. You use big words to make your self sound smart. Truth is you're average. Am I wrong? I can use big words too you know? I have an English scholarship with various institutions.

What big words have I used? But, yeah, I am average... Your point?

I'm going to say you are stupid. I'm not saying project m is a bad game and nobody should play it, I'm saying people should get it in their heads that it can't be official or treated as official

What it boils down to is that it's a mod

I'm not saying it should be treated as official, I'm saying that it's not some cheap replica.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Well I don't think that's fair to say. There's certainly more reason to not like PM than not having played it much.

Reading my comment again, i see i worded it poorly and didnt quite portray my sentiment, apologies.

What i mean is that many of the reasons people give for not liking PM stem from snap decisions based around little play.
Things like saying L-Cancelling is easier.
X xcharacter has an unbeatable move
This is 'jank' (when, if you look at melee top 6... you get the point.)

 

[_A1]

In either game, you can't ever be satisfied if you insist that characters are jank(unless they're broken or something). Without some jank, there is only so much you can do to a character to make them unique from the rest. Pretty much any decent character has something a little janky about them.

@ Narpas_sword You said that the notion that the Melee top 6 are balanced within themselves was hilarious. They are actually relatively balanced. Any of those matchups aside from Puff-Peach are about 60-40 at worst. Fox is even with Falco and Marth and around 60-40 with Sheik, Peach, and Jiggs so it's not like he's broken or anything.

 

[Narpas_sword]

@ Narpas_sword You said that the notion that the Melee top 6 are balanced within themselves was hilarious. They are actually relatively balanced. Any of those matchups aside from Puff-Peach are about 60-40 at worst. Fox is even with Falco and Marth and around 60-40 with Sheik, Peach, and Jiggs so it's not like he's broken or anything.

As i said, i understood the notion.

What i found hilarious was the cheery picking.

'it's quite balanced if you only look at the characters that are close together and ignore the rest'

 

[_A1]

You couldn't ask for better balance from the "accident" that is Melee. Considering the ever-growing numbers, I'd say the Melee community at large isn't all that concerned about the balance PM wants to achieve.

 

[Narpas_sword]

i know, and that's a good reason for them to stick to melee.

If too many matchups is a concern, and all you want is 7 static matchups, then melee is your game.

 

[Spak]

i know, and that's a good reason for them to stick to melee.

If too many matchups is a concern, and all you want is 7 static matchups, then melee is your game.

*12

 

[Narpas_sword]

*12

7 main matchups. more if you include other characters that may pop up, yea.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Fox is only even with Marth some of the time, stage matters a lot.

You couldn't ask for better balance from the "accident" that is Melee. Considering the ever-growing numbers, I'd say the Melee community at large isn't all that concerned about the balance PM wants to achieve.

Over time this will be an issue.

If the games balance turns worse, people will get sick of it.

 

[_A1]

i know, and that's a good reason for them to stick to melee.

If too many matchups is a concern, and all you want is 7 static matchups, then melee is your game.

They aren't exactly static yet. Everyone used to say Sheik beats Marth because of her raw punish game. Now people are saying that the matchup is evening itself out as Marth's get better at the neutral. Falcon is seeing development as a legitimate character nowadays; he's not just for styling anymore. For all we know Falcon might beat Falco someday.

 

[Narpas_sword]

static by comparison*

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

As i said, i understood the notion.
What i found hilarious was the cheery picking.
'it's quite balanced if you only look at the characters that are close together and ignore the rest'

i know, and that's a good reason for them to stick to melee.
If too many matchups is a concern, and all you want is 7 static matchups, then melee is your game.

I am not sure the idea is if people are bothered by the number of match-ups to play or not. Well, I have heard of that several player in P:M. The game is still way too new to really have adequate experience against a good portion of the cast and its annoying to lose to someone out of area simply because no one plays the match-up you do.

Anyway, the idea I was getting at earlier was a game does not have to be ideally balanced among all its characters. A game merely needs to have some minimum number of balanced characters relative to each other. Brawl sort of messed that up by having MK who was not toned down to the rest of the top tier. Otherwise, its top tier cast of Olimar, Diddy, ICs, Falco, Marth, Wario, Snake, etc. was enough diversity to make it a fun game and relatively balanced set of match-ups among themselves.

For both Brawl and Melee in this scope I do not think they became any worse of a game despite having more unused characters for many people. They both had a set of fun characters with all different play-styles. In this regard, I do not think P:M will really be any worse or better of a game by having say 40+ characters be fairly close to each other. It has very well achieved a good set of play-styles among all characters and reduced the barrier between top and bottom. That I think is the goal with any balance to reduce top and bottom tier differences, but accept that there will always be some top and bottom tier spectrum among a cast.

Now, the next thing I wish would happen is a final release which I know will not change in the next 5+ years. That way I can try to become a master with whatever character I feel like playing with and the effort I put into learning a character a year ago does not end up changing across some 40+ characters.

 

[Plebiscuit]

Boy. I played pm for 3 months before I played melee. I know what I'm talking about. And you can even feel a difference

So what you're saying is you didn't pick up Melee until, let's be generous, 2013? You must be quite the authority. Thank you for laying down the law.

 

[Eelo Enous]

So what you're saying is you didn't pick up Melee until, let's be generous, 2013? You must be quite the authority. Thank you for laying down the law.

No problem ****

 

[VaLoR_Ryan]

Melee> PM any day

 

[Narpas_sword]

Melee> PM any day

would you like to add any opinions to this statement?

Now, the next thing I wish would happen is a final release which I know will not change in the next 5+ years. That way I can try to become a master with whatever character I feel like playing with and the effort I put into learning a character a year ago does not end up changing across some 40+ characters.

5 Plus years is an insane time for a patch.
Can you think of any other games that do that?

Patches are either more frequent, or non existant.