Project M vs Melee

[Nefnoj]

I said it before and it still stands: I don’t like the Brawl newcomer characters nor the Brawl textures and character models nor the sound effects. In these regards, PM feels like a caricature of Melee to me and I can’t take it seriously since I constantly have to laugh about the weird sounds. For example, when Ganondorf dies, his dying shout continues past the point he has already respawned. It’s a small detail, but nonsensical things like that do matter to me.

So I'll bet you're a big fan of Melee remastered then, huh?

I also have an appreciation for your use of the word "nor", a lot of people tend to forget its existence.

 

[_A1]

@ Narpas_sword In PM even the most perfect of wavedashes look really "bouncy." It's really ugly to look at, whereas in Melee it doesn't even look like you even elevated off the ground at all. This is most easily seen when a Fox waveshines in succession. In PM he's bouncing up and down. It really makes Melee look so much more fluid.

PM Fox vs Melee Fox waveshine comparison:
https://youtu.be/NG8i5Ov2Sfc?t=1m51s
https://youtu.be/FS4xCuKDDhA?t=27s

Like I said earlier PM is the better game overall, but Melee is more fluid and crisp in its movement, to the eye and often times even your hands.

 

[Narpas_sword]

i just went into dolphin and did a bunch of wavedashes, i can see the bounce if im slightly late, so yea i agree, if you mess up your wavedash it looks wrong.
Otherwise it looks fine.
same as melee.

the only 'bounce' im seeing is in the crouch animation, which is present in melee too.

 

[666blaziken]

@ Narpas_sword In PM even the most perfect of wavedashes look really "bouncy." It's really ugly to look at, whereas in Melee it doesn't even look like you even elevated off the ground at all. This is most easily seen when a Fox waveshines in succession. In PM he's bouncing up and down. It really makes Melee look so much more fluid.

PM Fox vs Melee Fox waveshine comparison:
https://youtu.be/NG8i5Ov2Sfc?t=1m51s
https://youtu.be/FS4xCuKDDhA?t=27s

Like I said earlier PM is the better game overall, but Melee is more fluid and crisp in its movement, to the eye and often times even your hands.

I think both look similar after looking at the comparisons as of now (3.02's wavedashing/wavelanding looks way different though). I almost want to say that the camera makes fox look like he is moving a little bit different, so that might be it. However, the movement in the hands is definitely different. Pm still has that 1 frame brawl physics delay that makes it so characters are stuck on the ground for 1 extra frame before jumping (so fox doesn't leave the ground till frame 5 unlike frame 4 in melee) and that could mess with someone's timing who just got off of playing on a melee setup.

 

[mimgrim]

(so fox doesn't leave the ground till frame 5 unlike frame 4 in melee)

Preeeeeeeeeeeeety sure Fox leaves the ground on frame 3 in P:M and frame 2 in Melee (Suppose to be frame 3 in Melee I believe but due to the way the game reads jump squats they happen a frame earlier, which is why Fox's short-hop is a frame 1 input in Melee).

 

[Narpas_sword]

Preeeeeeeeeeeeety sure Fox leaves the ground on frame 3 in P:M and frame 2 in Melee (Suppose to be frame 3 in Melee I believe but due to the way the game reads jump squats they happen a frame earlier, which is why Fox's short-hop is a frame 1 input in Melee).

lol

preeeeety sure its supposed to be 3 in both, but due to melee being (squatframe -1) it's 2.

2 frames in melee to release the jump button to SH.
3 in PM to SH

in both games he's still counted as 'on the ground' in frame 3 though.

frame 4 in the air.

same with samus.

 

[Kadano]

So I'll bet you're a big fan of Melee remastered then, huh?

Not really, no. Playing Melee in 480p60 on a good CRT already looks very crisp, I never feel like the graphics need polishing. The only way to remaster Melee that I’d like to see is to re-release it for Gamecube as a very slightly changed version. Give access to a polished version of the debug menu and develop mode, use most PAL changes, make grabs last 5 seconds at most (so that wobbling would break after 5 seconds grab time) maybe. But even that would split the community, it wouldn’t be accepted as the new superior version of Melee. So I think it’s neither realistic nor a perfect solution.

 

[666blaziken]

lol

preeeeety sure its supposed to be 3 in both, but due to melee being (squatframe -1) it's 2.

2 frames in melee to release the jump button to SH.
3 in PM to SH

in both games he's still counted as 'on the ground' in frame 3 though.

frame 4 in the air.

same with samus.

No, what I meant is that he doesn't get any height out of frame 4 when he leaves the ground. He has 3 jump squat frames and on the 4th, even though he leaves the ground, he doesn't get any height unlike in melee where he gets more height as soon as he leaves the ground.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3UbHAq4Tk0

 

[ShadowKing]

Melee because project m is melee but with characters like young link weren't added plus brawl character's are added.To rap it up its two games put together into one but some character's weren't added.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Melee because project m is melee but with characters like young link weren't added plus brawl character's are added.To rap it up its two games put together into one but some character's weren't added.

Ignoring that you think pm is just melee with more characters, but if that was the way it was why would you like melee instead of the game with more characters?

 

[ThePuffDaddy]

Project M vs Melee is something I ask myself everyday. On one han you jave PM which was made with competitive play in mind which resulted in many legal stages, more viable characters, and many moves that were designed to combo into eachother. The only problem with that is PM has also had problems of characters being a bit too overpowered. And since moves are designed to combo into eachother it leaves less room for creativity. Some characters are also way easier than the rest of the cast and require less tech skill than characters in Melee. However PM does get a plus for more character variety and the abiltity to be patched.

 

[ShadowKing]

Ignoring that you think pm is just melee with more characters, but if that was the way it was why would you like melee instead of the game with more characters?

Because I do plus we have characters from both melee and brawl

 

[Spak]

Because I do

Not really a good reason...

 

[ShadowKing]

Not really a good reason...

And who asked you plus its my reason not yours sry dude don't butt into my business plz

 

[Spak]

And who asked you

It's a forum. Everyone who wishes to contribute is allowed to do so.

its my reason not yours

It can't possibly be my reason because I don't know what your reason is.

don't butt into my business plz

It became everyone's business when you posted it on the internet.

If you don't want to tell me, fine, but don't use "because I do" as a reason and expect people to respect it as a valid reason.

 

[ShadowKing]

Ignoring that you think pm is just melee with more characters, but if that was the way it was why would you like melee instead of the game with more characters?

To be honest it's more brawl but with a few melee characters

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

To be honest it's more brawl but with a few melee characters

Ha uh wat

 

[ShadowKing]

Ha uh wat

Bruh don't reply if you don't understand

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

Bruh don't reply if you don't understand

U obviously have either never played pm or have never played brawl, or both.....

 

[Dolla Pills]

Here are my thoughts on some of the key differences between Melee and PM that are important to me:

Aesthetics- Brawl and thus PM have revamped sound and graphics, but I really don't like them. Maybe it's because I grew up on Melee, I don't really know, but I much prefer the look and sound of Melee.

Character Balancing- This is one of the the only parts that I kinda like. I like to be able to play Kirby and Bowser and feel like I am playing a usable character. However, I will say that I am someone who occasionally likes to play bad characters because I think it's fun, and I feel like this is somewhat lacking from PM.

More characters- I don't like this at all. I'm fine with the amount of viable characters in Melee, and to be honest just buffing the worse characters is even pushing it for me. Having almost 50 characters (I actually don't know how many are in PM lol I could be totally wrong about this number) is way too much for me.

More stages- I like this about PM too. I think if Melee had eight or so legal stages instead of six then it would be perfect (especially when it comes to counter picking characters like Fox who don't really have a bad stage other than FD in certain matchups), but it doesn't so the PM variety is nice.

Slight engine changes- The games feel extremely similar, but since I am a Melee player of course I am going to be more comfortable playing Melee.

The competitive scene- The Melee scene is and probably will always be much larger than the PM scene, and I like the larger community.

What ThePuffDaddy said a couple posts above regarding being intentionally designed for competitive play and whatnot as well.

So these are all just personal opinions but I wanted to write them down. In the end I much prefer Melee over PM, but I think PM is fun sometimes too.

 

[666blaziken]

Here are my thoughts on some of the key differences between Melee and PM that are important to me:

Aesthetics- Brawl and thus PM have revamped sound and graphics, but I really don't like them. Maybe it's because I grew up on Melee, I don't really know, but I much prefer the look and sound of Melee.

Character Balancing- This is one of the the only parts that I kinda like. I like to be able to play Kirby and Bowser and feel like I am playing a usable character. However, I will say that I am someone who occasionally likes to play bad characters because I think it's fun, and I feel like this is somewhat lacking from PM.

More characters- I don't like this at all. I'm fine with the amount of viable characters in Melee, and to be honest just buffing the worse characters is even pushing it for me. Having almost 50 characters (I actually don't know how many are in PM lol I could be totally wrong about this number) is way too much for me.

More stages- I like this about PM too. I think if Melee had eight or so legal stages instead of six then it would be perfect (especially when it comes to counter picking characters like Fox who don't really have a bad stage other than FD in certain matchups), but it doesn't so the PM variety is nice.

Slight engine changes- The games feel extremely similar, but since I am a Melee player of course I am going to be more comfortable playing Melee.

The competitive scene- The Melee scene is and probably will always be much larger than the PM scene, and I like the larger community.

What ThePuffDaddy said a couple posts above regarding being intentionally designed for competitive play and whatnot as well.

So these are all just personal opinions but I wanted to write them down. In the end I much prefer Melee over PM, but I think PM is fun sometimes too.

If you want to use a bad character, olimar and ice climbers are prime candidates for bad characters if that's an issue. I respect your opinion; some people don't consider matchup knowledge to be important in fighting games, and that's reasonable, and with melee, matchup knowledge is not as important as in PM, but if you look at mango or westballz, they have no issues winning PM tournaments with professor pro (top 5 pm players) in them despite not knowing the majority of the matchups, so if they can do it, so can anyone else if they put their heart into it. I feel you on the sounds though, I hacked my wii so I can get melee sounds on PM and it sounds so crisp. I have to disagree with the graphics in melee though. While some of brawl's characters models were dull colored (I'm looking at you link, peach, and falcon) other models looked nice such as mario's overall textures, yoshi, and bowser, and the PM alts made up for the dull colored default ones (my favorite being OOT link). In melee, I like falcon's, link's and puff's skins, but some were really ugly though (yoshi and mewtwo's heads look soooo disfigured, and pikachu's color is kind of dark in an odd way). But overall, both games are really awesome.

 

[666blaziken]

Project M vs Melee is something I ask myself everyday. On one han you jave PM which was made with competitive play in mind which resulted in many legal stages, more viable characters, and many moves that were designed to combo into eachother. The only problem with that is PM has also had problems of characters being a bit too overpowered. And since moves are designed to combo into eachother it leaves less room for creativity. Some characters are also way easier than the rest of the cast and require less tech skill than characters in Melee. However PM does get a plus for more character variety and the abiltity to be patched.

Are you sure you're playing project M 3.5? The characters aren't overpowered, that was a huge issue in 3.02 and it got fixed in 3.5. Also, a lot of moves were changed so there aren't nearly as many guaranteed auto combos, and as of now, there isn't any character that screams "inbalance" a lot of the changes involved recovery balancing and more shown here: http://projectmgame.com/en/news/dev-blogpost-7-trimming-the-fat

 

[ShadowKing]

U obviously have either never played pm or have never played brawl, or both.....

Erm I have smart one plus I dislike project m

 

[666blaziken]

Erm I have smart one plus I dislike project m

Lelz, pm plays nothing like brawl, and only gets closer to melee (in a good way) with each patch. Heck, most of the small issues have to do with the brawl engine reminants, and those are being patched too.

 

[ShadowKing]

Lelz, pm plays nothing like brawl, and only gets closer to melee (in a good way) with each patch. Heck, most of the small issues have to do with the brawl engine reminants, and those are being patched too.

I know but MEnKIRBZ said I haven't played brawl or m and plus you can play m like melee but all characters are from melee and mostly brawl except the pokemon witch where just separated

 

[MEnKIRBZ]

Erm I have smart one plus I dislike project m

Disliking pm is your opinion and that is whatever

To be honest it's more brawl but with a few melee characters

Your statement however is false...

Does pm have unlimited airdodging? NO
Does pm have tripping? NO
Does pm not allow ATs such as dashdancing and wavedashing? NO
Does pm have an extremely op character such as metaknight? NO

So you see your argument is a fallacy. Saying its more brawl with melee characters is like saying that a big Mac is more chicken with special sauce. I'm sorry buddybuddy but pm plays like melee and a bigmac has beef

 

[666blaziken]

Disliking pm is your opinion and that is whatever



Your statement however is false...

Does pm have unlimited airdodging? NO
Does pm have tripping? NO
Does pm not allow ATs such as dashdancing and wavedashing? NO
Does pm have an extremely op character such as metaknight? NO

So you see your argument is a fallacy. Saying its more brawl with melee characters is like saying that a big Mac is more chicken with special sauce. I'm sorry buddybuddy but pm plays like melee and a bigmac has beef

I wasn't even going to bother explaining because he is totally trolling, but thanks for the explanation

 

[ShadowKing]

I wasn't even going to bother explaining because he is totally trolling, but thanks for the explanation

I don't troll

 

[Narpas_sword]

Some pretty unintelligent arguments being stated here guys...

If you're going to make a statement, back it up by explaining it and giving examples and evidence.

I'm sure they still teach 13 year olds that in high school.

 

[Eelo Enous]

Guys lets be real. Okay, pm has been made to be like melee so it can appeal more to others. But melee was melee for what it was. Faults or no faults. People liked the game. Pm was supposed to be brawl with melee mechanics. But they went beyond just mechanics, they went on to alter moves and damage. Even pikachu's back air animation is different. They made it to suit there own needs. Who cares if jiggly puffs rest kills ridiculously, that was part of the game and if you didn't like it you find a way to beat it. That is melee. In pm they took it out completely and skill was minimized. So what if it's not as balanced as pm. That's what made it melee, pm is the beginner melee. For example, if you painted a great picture and someone saw it and painted over it, would you still like it? You put all your effort into it and some guy comes and paints over it

 

[Spak]

Honestly, the thing I have always liked better about Melee is something that some PM fans think is a bad thing: it cannot and will not change. Over the years, the Melee teir list has changed significantly. Up until a few years ago, Jiggs was really low and a few years before that, Sheik was in the first spot on the teir list. The mechanics are locked in, the movesets & matchups will never change, and the meta will always be evolving based on the foundation of the game. I feel like the development of a game dependent on the community's opinion dependent on the game without giving the game time to develop its metagame is unhealthy and dangerous for the balance because there will never be any solid ground to stand on. I've felt the PM nerfs pretty hard because I'm an Ike main in PM. He is still strong, but I keep on trying to preform tech that no longer exists. I've SD'd in tournament matches because I tried to QD-Walljump too many times after they reduced his walljumps from infinite to 2 to 1. Until they stop developing the game, PM will always be dynamic. That may be good for some, but it will always be a shortcoming in my opinion.

tl;dr:

I don't like PM as much as Melee because it changes way too much. The devs balancing in reaction to how the community views the game is a bad thing because the community commonly overreacts to things, which causes characters to be overbuffed or overnerfed and then the viability of a character changes. In addition, you have to re-learn MUs every time there is a new patch and if you spend hours upon hours trying to master a character, the devs can just make those hours feel wasted by changing how the character works (an example I used is the Ike walljumps; I learned how to Reverse QD->Walljump and make my way up Yoshi's only to have that taken away and given two walljumps, then only one).

 

[Narpas_sword]

Who cares if jiggly puffs rest kills ridiculously, that was part of the game and if you didn't like it you find a way to beat it. That is melee. In pm they took it out completely and skill was minimized.

Uhhh.

PM has the same rest (and all the other same stats) for jiggs as melee.

and 'skill was minimized'?

explain.

tl;dr:

I don't like PM as much as Melee because it changes way too much. The devs balancing in reaction to how the community views the game is a bad thing because the community commonly overreacts to things, which causes characters to be overbuffed or overnerfed and then the viability of a character changes. In addition, you have to re-learn MUs every time there is a new patch and if you spend hours upon hours trying to master a character, the devs can just make those hours feel wasted by changing how the character works (an example I used is the Ike walljumps; I learned how to Reverse QD->Walljump and make my way up Yoshi's only to have that taken away and given two walljumps, then only one).

The devs have openly said that a lot of their changes were put into testing long befofre community started whining about it. they already saw potential in the strenght of moves and had planned to alter them.

Just because the release comes after the whining doesnt mean it's because if it.

I can understand how people dislike change though, hell even in melee there are people that hate pal because they have slight differences.

PM requires more on the fly knowledge, a lot of people are more comfortable with learning 7 static matchups and not having to deal with much else. Which is fine.

 

[666blaziken]

tl;dr:

I don't like PM as much as Melee because it changes way too much. The devs balancing in reaction to how the community views the game is a bad thing because the community commonly overreacts to things, which causes characters to be overbuffed or overnerfed and then the viability of a character changes. In addition, you have to re-learn MUs every time there is a new patch and if you spend hours upon hours trying to master a character, the devs can just make those hours feel wasted by changing how the character works (an example I used is the Ike walljumps; I learned how to Reverse QD->Walljump and make my way up Yoshi's only to have that taken away and given two walljumps, then only one).

The reason why there are a lot of changes is because the game isn't finished yet, according to the PMDT, from 3.5 and onward, there will be very minimal buffs and nerfs as most of the game at the moment is pretty well designed, and they are also going to be making a release of a "final version" where there will be no more balance changes, so hopefully that makes you feel better.

 

[Spak]

The reason why there are a lot of changes is because the game isn't finished yet, according to the PMDT, from 3.5 and onward, there will be very minimal buffs and nerfs as most of the game at the moment is pretty well designed, and they are also going to be making a release of a "final version" where there will be no more balance changes, so hopefully that makes you feel better.

I might start playing PM some more whenever they have the final release, but I'm probably sticking to Melee for a majority of the time. I've already stated a majority of my opinions on this thread, so I'll probably not make any more posts here unless it is referring to someone else's and there is something I want to point out.

 

[elliotnz]

Theres no universal law in the universe that predecessors can't surpass the original. E.g theres better icecreams than vanilla

 

[Spak]

Theres no universal law in the universe that predecessors can't surpass the original. E.g theres better icecreams than vanilla

I completely agree; I like Mustangs more than Model T's. Still like Melee better, but I can see why some prefer PM.

 

[elliotnz]

that's what it comes down to. actually try a smash game out and choose the one you have the most fun with

 

[Eelo Enous]

Everyone face it, pm balanced out everybody. So the only thing standing between you and the other player now are how well you play the game. Unlike in melee where you need to figure out how to beat the other players unbalanced advantages. That's what made it melee. Pm took it too far and changed character statistics. It's not smash guys, it's a mod

 

[Kurri ★]

Everyone face it, pm balanced out everybody. So the only thing standing between you and the other player now are how well you play the game. Unlike in melee where you need to figure out how to beat the other players unbalanced advantages. That's what made it melee. Pm took it too far and changed character statistics. It's not smash guys, it's a mod

But PM didn't balance out everyone, it only made characters more viable, and even then there are still clear disparity amongst characters. ZSS, for example, struggles with fast-fallers and disjoints. Fast-fallers like Fox and Falco, change up how ZSS has to play due to a lot of her combos not working properly on them. Marth and Roy beat her out due to their better range, again, forcing the ZSS player to think differently about their approach.

The only way PM, or any game for that matter, could achieve true balance is if every character were the exact same. Considering PM is trying to make each character unique, no matter how much they balance it, one character is going to be more advantageous against another, forcing the disadvantaged player to figure out how to beat the advantaged one; basically like Melee...

And what does being a mod have to do with anything?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

True balance will never be achieved unless you have a single character in match-up with themselves. Otherwise, you will almost always have ways to leverage advantages against your opponent in varying degrees. The question is whether or not those advantages and disparities are too great across the "best" and "worst" characters in the game.

In the scope of the top 6 characters in Melee, the game is quite balanced. There has been a ton of back and forth between Jiggs, Fox, Falco, Sheik, PEach, and Marth for years. Its enough variety I think to many to keep playing the game. Plus, there are enough other "viable" characters when you allow for disparity in skill between players to make appearances.

P:M seems to never show signs of allowing itself to reach that equilibrium where you know who are the good/bad characters. Its continually in a state of doing the next balance patch.

I do think that the fact its a mod greatly limits its area of influence. Constant patching is going to stagnant the player base in some areas because they have to relearn new things frequently. As far as I know P:M operates on the premise of file replacement. This means you are getting altered files from someone else who ended up ripping those files from the game. This is will continue to be a gray area and the game will likely never see the recognition at major sponsored events like EVO. This limits the games potential growth.

Melee on the other hand not only operate in underground tournaments, but has the possibility to be recognized by Nintendo and reach a larger audience.