Project M Social Thread

[kaizo13]

@TLMsheikant

oh my bad....they're only 98% useless......silly me

 

[jalued]

@TLMsheikant

oh my bad....they're only 98% useless......silly me

thats ok, they are only good for friendly WTF mindgames

 

[TLMSheikant]

You missed the sarcasm in my post :/. Ive only ever seen HDL use it once rofl.

 

[camelot]

Brawl zairs are very unmelee-like but i also don't think zairs should be as bad as they were in Melee....

i was thinking somewhere more inbetween, the massive amount of landing lag in Melee zairs made they practically useless onstage

They are kinda in-between right now. They have 10 frames of landing lag (same as a wavedash), compared to Brawl's 1 or 3 frames, and Melee's 30 frames.

 

[I R MarF]

How about the ability to L-Cancel Samus and Link's zair?

 

[Strong Badam]

said ability never existed and most likely won't.

 

[I R MarF]

said ability never existed and most likely won't.

Firstly, I never said it existed before hand... it is a suggestion.

Secondly, the issue with the zair is the landing lag, and since it is basically an aerial attack, I think leaving it with melee landing lag and L-cancelable would make a good solution. It gives Link and Samus a bit more use for it while requiring some technical skill.

And Thirdly, if you intend to shoot someone's suggestion down lets hear some reasons.

 

[Shell]

I suggested the same thing but I found out it would take more trouble to code than it's worth.

 

[I R MarF]

I suggested the same thing but I found out it would take more trouble to code than it's worth.

Darn. If that is the case than a landing lag between brawl and melee is the best bet.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Will Marth have the same ammount of hit-stun as everyone else?

 

[kaizo13]

o-O .....what?

hitstun is global

 

[Sterowent]

eh, hitstun is effected by hitstun constants, though. but i don't know if he's referring to a melee marth's hitstun constant being greater or lesser than average, since i don't know about melee's.

 

[Magus420]

There's no such thing as a character specific hitstun constant in Melee. I'm not convinced there actually is one in Brawl either.

 

[Strong Badam]

Firstly, I never said it existed before hand... it is a suggestion.

mmk, I never said you did.

Secondly, the issue with the zair is the landing lag, and since it is basically an aerial attack, I think leaving it with melee landing lag and L-cancelable would make a good solution. It gives Link and Samus a bit more use for it while requiring some technical skill.

those characters already have 5 good aerials, why should they get 6 usable ones? zair is not "basically an aerial attack" either. its main use is to grab ledges, which is almost exclusively what it was used for in melee. this IS Project M, not project B.

And Thirdly, if you intend to shoot someone's suggestion down lets hear some reasons.

I don't have to do anything of the sort, and neither does anyone else on the Project M team. You're not coding this game. You don't have the right to make such demands.

Additionally, Marth's hitstun is similar to how he was in Melee.

 

[Shell]

What we have right now is a good compromise between B+'s no lag and Melee's 30 frames.

 

[UltyBomber77]

eh, hitstun is effected by hitstun constants, though. but i don't know if he's referring to a melee marth's hitstun constant being greater or lesser than average, since i don't know about melee's.

maybe he meant hitlag
i always get the two mixed up, somehow

 

[Sora-kun]

What we have right now is a good compromise between B+'s no lag and Melee's 30 frames.

melee z air range yet?

 

[GP&B]

Now there is such thing as different characters receiving different amounts of overall hitstun, correct? This is one quality that makes Luigi difficult to combo, I believe. Fall speed is another factor though, but I clearly remember that Luigi receives quite a lot less hitstun compared to others.

 

[Strong Badam]

there is a hitstun formula which takes into account weight, knockback, and falling speed, but this formula is constant and does not change by character.

 

[GP&B]

So, it's mostly Luigi's fall speed then? I don't have any idea what weight value he has, but I want to assume he's borderline medium or perhaps light.

 

[humble]

Discussing zairs, one feature from melee's that I feel should return, is how once you used zair, if you kept falling it wouldn't stay directly infront of you at a fixed distance, rather it would actually move above you like the laws of physics actually applied to it, when you fell past them. It made them more timing based, so you couldn't just throw them out like in brawl, and with less landing lag I feel this feature should returned.

Also, I beg for Ivy/Oli Zairs.

 

[GP&B]

I can easily say that'd probably be a nightmare to code.

 

[Magus420]

For attacks that send him into the air his fall speed makes it take longer to reach him before hitstun ends, which makes him harder to combo. I really doubt the amount of actual hitstun is ever any different compared to an equal powered launcher being used on someone else. It's based solely on the amount of knockback in Melee, and I'm pretty sure that's how it works in Brawl as well until I see convincing proof that doesn't involve using the game's top speed stat for measuring knockback (which is not accurate as it can include the effects of fallspeed/DI and possibly more crap).

 

[GwJ]

I can easily say that'd probably be a nightmare to code.

Haha yea, good luck coding gravity and inertia into a single action.

 

[GP&B]

A rather odd topic, but I'm asking out of curiosity you could say. What is it in Brawl's engine that improves over Melee's engine and was worth keeping? I remember seeing at least a number of things that Brawl actually managed to improved such as a much more proper RAR (despite being a bit accidental anyways although the desired effect was accounting for the character to be turned around earlier).

 

[Dan_X]

^^ if you're talking RAW engine then Melee's was likely better because it was designed from the ground up for Smash. Brawl on the other hand makes use of a third party engine known as Havoc, if I recall correctly. For some reason that sounds wrong to me ATM, could be the wrong name. Nevertheless, it's a third party physics engine. Strangely enough, despite being a physics engine it failed at things that don't make sense. For example, in vBrawl there's little to no aerial momentum. Thankfully, our coders were able to undo many of those faults over time.

Another thing Brawl's Havoc engine added to the table is collision. That is, characters can collide with eachother in mid air. This is typically seen in doubles as one character will be launched skyward and upon hitting another player they too will recieve knockback, and the initial character's momentum will dissipate from the collision.

As for positives that Brawl has brought to the table (that weren't in Melee):
•Replays (obviously-- though this has nothing to do with gameplay)
•DACUS
•Tripping Induced by nannerz (not random tripping)
•RARing
•Wall Clinging
•Glide Tossing (and Aerial Glide Tossing in PM)
•Crawling
•Footstooling (I'm not a fan of this... But I suppose it's not a terrible addition to the game)
I think that's it, as far as gameplay is concerned.

 

[-_skinny_-]

and it added the wind factor (as in GnW Uair and Shieks upB, not like TLinks Dair when he lands, cuz i think that mite have been in melee)

 

[Tonb3rry]

Orca, yeah, they used a third party engine for Brawl, and you thought about the right one. Maybe it sounded wrong to you because it's written "Havok", but I dunno

 

[I R MarF]

mmk, I never said you did.

You did say "said ability never existed"; What would be the point in saying that if it didn't relate to my post? Shouldn't I have said: "L-cancelable zairs were in Melee!" (Which I didn't) in order for this kind of reply to make any sense?

those characters already have 5 good aerials, why should they get 6 usable ones? zair is not "basically an aerial attack" either. its main use is to grab ledges, which is almost exclusively what it was used for in melee. this IS Project M, not project B.

6 aerial attacks? Oh my goodness... the world may come to an end. Also, if you read correctly I said it should have melee landing lag but you can L-cancel it. I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not but link's melee zair landing lag is pretty bad. 30 frames I believe. (To put this in perspective Ganon's melee dair has 35 frames landing lag) So endless you can consistently L-cancel not every kid on the block can make a useful attack out of the zair anyway.

Plus, Shell, a P:M developer, considered doing something like this before I even suggested the idea, (You would know this if you read any of the other posts after mine) but he said it was too difficult the program... so that little "this IS Project M, not project B" thing you capped at the end holds no viability.

I don't have to do anything of the sort, and neither does anyone else on the Project M team. You're not coding this game. You don't have the right to make such demands.

Why are you acting so high and mighty here? Why are you speaking for P:M? When did I make demands?

Like I said, if you read some of the other posts you would already know Shell considered this idea before me and said he isn't doing that. I respected that and I didn't make a fuss. Now, if any of the P:M developers felt I was making these so called "demands" I will gladly apologize, so please, stop speaking for P:M, it was nice arguing with you. Goodbye.




Btw Shell, I'm really looking forward to seeing the hybrid landing lag. You guys are geniuses; keep up the good work.

 

[JCaesar]

Another thing Brawl's Havoc engine added to the table is collision. That is, characters can collide with eachother in mid air. This is typically seen in doubles as one character will be launched skyward and upon hitting another player they too will recieve knockback, and the initial character's momentum will dissipate from the collision.

That was in Melee too btw. It just wasn't as annoying because I think flying characters had smaller hitboxes.

 

[Bandit]

Now, if any of the P:M developers felt I was making these so called "demands" I will gladly apologize, so please, stop speaking for P:M, it was nice arguing with you. Goodbye.

Strong_Bad is a Project M developer. Start apologizing.

 

[Dark Sonic]

That was in Melee too btw. It just wasn't as annoying because I think flying characters had smaller hitboxes.

Actually, it was only on throws in melee. Characters sent flying by attacks didn't collide with other characters.

Strong_Bad is a Project M developer. Start apologizing.

Strong_Bad was also being a ****.

Apology not necessary.

 

[Bandit]

Strong_Bad was also being a ****.

Apology not necessary.

It's not my argument, but I will say this:

The attitudes that come with some of the people who are flamboyantly following this game are atrocious. Having to put up with people who argue with developers and then demand answers as to why their suggestions aren't going to be used is appauling. Feedback is suppose to gauge reactions of the fan base; it is not a place to demand a random idea of yours to be put into the game.

I personally like Strong_Bad's response, and I encourage more responses like that to people who truly don't understand. The developers got together and decided to create this fabulous game: a true sequel to Melee. It's a great concept, and the raw gameplay so far has been one of the funnest versions of smash I have ever played. The amount of time they have put in just to get it this far is mind boggling considering most of them have jobs, are in school or working to get through school. This is a hobby not a job.

They were gracious enough to start allowing live streams so the public could see the game as it was being developed. It had been kept behind closed doors for this long because the fan base is very strong, very opinionated, and Melee presents an existing model to build the game around. They very easily could become offended by how the fans are treating them and pull all the live streams or pull the replays they have shared. Just like that, the public could be left in the dark because of a few idiots who think they are developers too just because they watched a live stream.

Now, Dark Sonic, do you want to retake your stance? People need to stop getting butthurt all the time when people give short or blunt responses. They also need to stop demanding reasons and explanations. The team has usually been more than willing to hear out people's stances, ideas, and comment on them accordingly, but they don't have to do it.

-----

Sorry for the rant. Back to your Project M discussion.

 

[JCaesar]

Wow. Chill the **** out.

Actually, it was only on throws in melee. Characters sent flying by attacks didn't collide with other characters.

Oh hmm interesting. I didn't remember that.

 

[shanus]

good news for all:

It seems I finally got cc'ing and jab resets working properly. Additionally, I disabled the ability to walljump with pressing the jump button so that no more accidental walljumps.

Good stuffs

 

[Dark Sonic]

rant

I still feel that Strong_Bad's response to the initial suggestion of L-cancel'd zairs was kinda rude.

"it never existed" was an unneeded comment that only served to belittle the other person. Everyone likes to hear reasons for why their ideas are "bad."


But I agree that I R Marf's response to this was even worse. "Let's see some reasons" can't really be taken as anything other than a demand.


@I R Marf, you really should preview your posts a little more before sending them. I find it hard to believe that you would be able to send that if you didn't feel you were entitled to an explanation (which you are not).

But Bandit, so far I really haven't come across that many people making such demands. While they're certainly not entitled to any explanations, it often doesn't take much satisfy their curiosity.



Back to P:M

Characters colliding from attacks is one of the things I find most bothersome about the brawl engine. The faster P:M gets, the more this starts to disrupt team play, especially when playing characters that really only cover one side of them when attacking (i.e Marth). It's fairly annoying when you're comboing someone and your partner accidentally knocks the other guy into you. With collisions being only on throws these disruptions happen a lot less frequently, most of them even being planned.


I mean, obviously we could just adjust to it, but I think it's something worth looking at eventually (low priority).


edit: Shanus is a god. That is all

 

[shanus]

its easy to adjust being hit by people. It occurs during hitstun actions 45 only as 2 separate subroutines with frame counts for the hitboxes. We can easily remove them in a magical total of 4 lines.

I can try adding the following:

If previous action = thrown, hitboxes out during hitstun. Would that suffice?

 

[GP&B]

Yeah, I suggested increasing the parameters required for a dead weight collision to occur, but I also remember someone saying that at least thrown dead weight has to stay in to prevent throw infinites, particularly with Mario's FThrow. If there was a way to create discrepancies, this could probably be changed to not be so bothersome.

On Shanus' developments:
If you somehow got landing detection working when you posted that, I would die of joy. But that only made me super extremely joyful. Absolutely amazing to hear these breakthroughs.

EDIT: Well then, I guess that's simple enough haha

 

[shanus]

We have a coder working on landing detection who has made progress since Phantom Wings. No promises though.

 

[GP&B]

Whatever we can get, right? Still, those three successes will definitely make the next stream epic.