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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

Cactuar

El Fuego
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Ruby has been trolling so hard recently >.>

Really need to not straight up call someone dumb. Certain people might enjoy smacking you down for it.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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KK:
But its infinitely easier for the fox to consstently avoid falco's predictable launchers/combo starters when he is constanty and actively trying to do so

than

falco doing all those things on the fly/reacting in response to fox hitting him with said things.

point taken though.
I'm going to simply recycle "If we're talking high level play, Foxes Falcos should be able to do this even if it's not super easy". You know... the argument that invalidates tech chasing being anything but automatic death combo for Fox. Only it's not because so much can go wrong with it because of the nature of Fox's moves.

But oh well.

Also a lot of it is positional stuff so you don't actually have to do anything. Just don't air-dodge when you fall off level.

Falco's three main combo starters in the MU (Shine, Utilt, Dair) work more consistently than Foxes because they're less dependent on special positioning or circumstances to work. Dair needs them grounded. And if they're above 10-12 (making them at 24 or so after the Dair) then SDI doesn't matter. Shine's only restriction is that they're not visibly crouching, but if they're doing that you can Dair them anyway (again, if they're above 10-12... or just do late Dair - it is also worth noting that at worst they ground themselves or tech the Shine, which can be followed anyway, but since it's less guaranteed I'll concede it can be hard to follow if you're not expecting it). U-tilt is mostly for beating aerial approaches or extending combos, so nonsense like crouch cancel is largely non-applicable given the situations it's used in.

I'm not sure what else you really need. If he's airborne all manner of things open up as combo starters (especially at low percent), namely his sex kicks.

This reminds me of the "don't get grabbed" argument. You're going to get grabbed. Falco is going to hit a clean Shine or whatever. It's just going to happen. The fact that more stuff can mess up Fox's punishment suite than Falco's is just inherent to the nature of Fox's main combo starters and follows. They hit sideways, or are multi-hit moves. Falco's hit up or down, as single moves. The former is just more susceptible to nonsense than the latter.
 

TheDekuNut

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falco can dair fox into a near guaranteed shine/utilt until 35% (poor spacing can let fox free). before that point fox cannot tech it and just goes into that flip animation upon reaching the ground. when fox is planted on the ground when daired until 35% fox just gets a bunch of hitstun. after that 35% mark the dair will send fox up a little and then be able to tech and get free. combos get really difficult/creative when fox is over 35%. and smash di on a shine is very effective. the issue isn't really following up after the dair but after the shine. i'm sure you all know this anyway
 

Bl@ckChris

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMg_3c93pKE&feature=related

it's a shame pp already ***** him on FD that set. i think that falco fox is greatly in falco's favor on FD, because although platforms make comboing flow better at mid percents, with good DI, they allow foxes to tech onto platforms out of shines at low percents, rendering a lot of combos useless that you would get on FD.

this set was back at pound 4 though, so i know a lot of things have changed. PP certainly couldve edgeguarded better. but in any case, i think this shows how good fox's techchases really are. lucky could react to a lot of things and usmash as a free punish, which led into more usmashes, uairs, or even grabs if he wanted to.
 

(*Jman*)

Smash Champion
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Apr 8, 2007
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well since this is the ask dr peepee thread

what will be the best way to **** falco with fox

answer me good plz
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 18, 2007
Messages
1,851
i had always suspected m2k picked up marth to beat PC's falco... now I know :D
 

Diakonos

Smash Lord
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Canada
well since this is the ask dr peepee thread

what will be the best way to **** falco with fox

answer me good plz
LOL.


PP, what I meant to say earlier is that Marth's grab game is NOT utterly destructive. Huge typo there. And what I meant to say regarding platforms is that they help Falco combo more. And that Falcos have learned to avoid getting ***** TOO hard on platforms by using CCing and stuff like that.

and yes, we will play friendlies if you so please :)
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
4. Fair OOS is used more for countering laser approaches and not pressure itself. I agree with the rest of that stuff you said.
fair oos is a poor option to counter laser approaches in that it gives falco an opportunity to fight the fair right back. As soon as marth does a properly spaced WD back, falco's offensive momentum is cut such that most of the time it's just the better option. ultimately when marth wants to avoid the **** he should do so optimally, giving your opponent chances to capitalize on you is what makes bad play in the first place.

that said, SH fair is an excellent option to kill falco's aerial approaches without lasers, or any characters aerial approaches for that matter. old school marth has a very common strategy that when any character jumps at you, jump straight up and fair that move. marth's fair can hit bom-ombs and he won't take damage, and the same goes for other aerials.

What was that discussion like, if you don't mind my asking? I'm very interested by that topic.
Chu and I were sitting in his room a few weeks ago and I wanted to point out one of his common habits, when he just started watching the videos and said something to the effect of, "wow, I was really, really good." since then like he'll go to a tournament and do well or I'll play other "melee" people that still play and we'll both beat them pretty badly, but as far as I know chu won't really play melee anymore outside of free $ at tournaments and he won't really talk about it if you ask him to, and neither of us practice. I really don't know why either of us still beats all of these "I've improved!" players. It does kinda reinforce my theory that most improvement is largely overstated though.

Also good Marths shield enough to bait and do OOS options I'm sure. They can't always be swinging their swords around or jumping or on platforms or something. It's just spurts of movement I'd say that happen to involve shield.
Actually, no. marth doesn't want to "bait" anything outside of basic DD or 2nd jump. marth is such that your goal is to pressure with the threat of something to force poor movement that leads to an auto-checkmate situation. in this way, his pressure can be extremely subtle and very much opposes modern viewpoints in that you don't want to attack to pressure. that isn't to say he shouldn't attack, and often the safety game he forces can create surprise approaches by themselves. If you want to see what melee marth is supposed to look like, this is probably the most obvious example I can think of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGR5qJ2zr_A

notice the lack of shield, how stupidly hard marth punishes for one error, how marth goes about applying pressure, and how even when fox slips his way out, he's never really in a good position to reengage marth. once he gets you properly, you can't do anything. Not in the same way melee players see it now where "but you can smash DI out here" but more in the sense of "sure I can do something in the technical sense I guess but I really can't DO anything". this is really what marth should be all about.

I also agree with everything m2k said in his longass post except jigglypuff being #1 (I'm a hater) and I think falco beats marth on FoD too because dsmash is STUPID good on the stage and it's way underused.

@ PP: I think you really underrate falco as a character in general. there has been nothing but empirical evidence so far to support that falco is better than fox.
 

Divinokage

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Umbreon, perhaps the "improved" players.. are merely improved with their own entourage of players. Because obviously we all know the real skill level is when everyone in the world is assembled in one place and then most people get a reality check lolll. You always find someone stronger. =P
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Umbreon, perhaps the "improved" players.. are merely improved with their own entourage of players. Because obviously we all know the real skill level is when everyone in the world is assembled in one place and then most people get a reality check lolll. You always find someone stronger. =P
Usually smash is just about what you can and can't do. If you can't come back to the stage 4 times for whatever reason you lose. Thus, the better characters aren't the ones with more options, but instead the characters that are the best at shutting down the useful options of others. So long as this exchange does not change, neither does your skill level because skill in this game is relative in nature.

If anyone wants to see the actual worst match in the game, pick "relentless dair falco" vs yoshi. yoshi has literally no offensive or defensive options in any way against falco's dair. the character is incapable of beating that one move.
 

V3ctorMan

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Usually smash is just about what you can and can't do. If you can't come back to the stage 4 times for whatever reason you lose. Thus, the better characters aren't the ones with more options, but instead the characters that are the best at shutting down the useful options of others. So long as this exchange does not change, neither does your skill level because skill in this game is relative in nature.

If anyone wants to see the actual worst match in the game, pick "relentless dair falco" vs yoshi. yoshi has literally no offensive or defensive options in any way against falco's dair. the character is incapable of beating that one move.
..."not quite"...

:)

I will post the epic video.. I have vs Axe's Falco... (not uploaded yet) yoshi's interesting way to stop falco...

:)
 

FoxLisk

Smash Lord
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Messages
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neglecting it?

no, he just understands it. he understands that most of the improvements since, like, '05 or '06 have been technical in nature or else just refinements. he's basically saying that smarter spacing and knowing your opponents options are more important than anything else, and now people are too focused on the little things.
 

KILLA.FOR.CASH.

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neglecting it?

no, he just understands it. he understands that most of the improvements since, like, '05 or '06 have been technical in nature or else just refinements. he's basically saying that smarter spacing and knowing your opponents options are more important than anything else, and now people are too focused on the little things.
quoted for truth
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
umbreonmow



neglecting the evolution of super smash bros melee since 1874
oh because your marth is so much better? oh, or was it your fox?

get real. good play is good play. what wins in smash hasn't really changed. even if you only have one option, so long as your opponent has 0, you still win.
 

Diakonos

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The principles haven't changed, but the applications have. I think that some people are confusing the two.
 

Bl@ckChris

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oh because your marth is so much better? oh, or was it your fox?

get real. good play is good play. what wins in smash hasn't really changed. even if you only have one option, so long as your opponent has 0, you still win.
ron is an up and coming puff player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5kxXUaL9Ic

he beats pp. show a little respect. he's changing the metagame by force.

just look at that final rest.
 
G

genkaku

Guest
How do you personally fight a doc?
I get frustrated because he reels back when he's hit so I can't play as aggro as I would like.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
ron is an up and coming puff player

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5kxXUaL9Ic

he beats pp. show a little respect. he's changing the metagame by force.

just look at that final rest.
haha made me laugh quite a bit. good **** @ both players lol.

The principles haven't changed, but the applications have. I think that some people are confusing the two.
not really. the best way to win is to remove the options from your opponent one way or another. nothing's really different.

I wish everyone would stop acting like everything is so much different now. smash hasn't really changed. people waveland a little more i guess and axe's pikachu looks cool but thats about it as far as major changes go.
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
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Sierra Vista AZ
well, all i know is that yoshi truly cannot beat falco's dair and i know from experience ♥
You are INDEEED correct, that he can't... TRULY.. defeat it.. however there are precisions methods, IMO that aren't quite tapped yet, that can cut down... "or at least" limit the blind Diar approach...

I'll try and upload tonite... and I'll post it here.. in no way, shape, form am I saying that Yoshi will like always win this matchup... but..

ahh.

nvm you'll all see... and I'll hope you enjoy the matches too :)
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
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Haha, ^^

well even if you have seen better.. ^^; which many of you have ><; i'm still gonna try to be the best yoshi I can be and entertain everybody... I've never had such fun w/a character like.. ever ><; as much as I have fun w/Yoshi.. I'm uploading at least two sets today in increments of 3 (sets with Axe) vs Fox/Falco...

tomorow.. and other days will probably be vs others players and other characters.. and of course vs Axe's Pikachu.. we had a lil get together for the last fest of 2010.. ^^ for Xmas it was kinda nice.

EDIT: Me vs Axe's Fox is being uploaded right now.. it'll be done very shortly.. I'll post a link here soon! ^^ and of course to get Falco(Yoshi) critique.. <3 XD...

Double EDIT: - heres vs Fox - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVbdG2cXrQM

<3 you guys <3
 

LumpyCPU...

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afk
Slippi.gg
half#198
man... i'm disappointed because your yoshi is good. lol i wanted to say that i've seen better.

i miss park. best yoshi in my heart. LOL
he had the tech skill but didn't put it to use as well as you did.
 

V3ctorMan

Smash Champion
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@Eikelmann ^^; wow.. that means alot to me ^^ I try.. I try my best to try and do my best for entertainment purposes and to show how viable (IMO) at least Yoshi can truly be.. :) I hope/want to get far with him... ^^;

ty so much <3
 
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