Hey Dr. PeePee I noticed some your CP choices during RoM3 GFs run counter to your suggestions of CP stages vs. Marth in the OP. Maybe I'm getting things confused, but I'm assuming Mew2king banned PS. You seemed to do really well on DL 64, and I'm curious as to whether your thoughts about it as a viable stage vs Marth and as a good stage for Falco in general have changed since the OP.
Also, my Falco tends to get ***** by Fox. Could you briefly explain how to deal with getting pressured by Fox nairs and shines, and what to do (like how to DI) once I get hit? How to deal with shield pressure? And what to do when a shine throws me offstage? How to space? If you could answer any of these questions, however generally or situationally you can, that would be extremely helpful.
Thanks by the way for the extremely useful advice. Learning how to handle specific situations is good for conditioning yourself to make the best decisions at the right times, but as a pretty mediocre player what I find most useful is the mindset to take away from effectively responding to and handling any given situation. From reading in between the lines in some of your advice, it seems players must first learn to study an opponent's move choices, then learn how to most effectively react to those move choices, and finally adapt to changes in the opponent's strategy.
Sorry in advance if I'm asking questions that have already been answered.
First of all, my idea of the Marth matchup has changed DRASTICALLY since I created the OP, so don't go off of that lol.
DL64 ***** for Falco vs Marth. Falco gets breathing room, which is amazing. Marth gets more retreating room from lasers and shield pressure, but overall I'd definitely say Falco's benefits outweigh Marth's.
Uhh, if your shield gets nair shined, then try rolling at different times, shield DI'ing, or shining OOS after the Nair(gotta have strict timing on this though, and it may depend on when the Nair is used). I also have a few other tactics I need to test on that one, so I'll get back to you on it later.
If you get shined offstage you're done more often than not, but you kinda have to react quickly to Fox. If he stays on stage then you have time to shine stall or jump anywhere you want or whatever, but if he grabs the edge or jumps out after you then try to avoid reactionary DJs because that's the quick way to get shine spiked or Bair'd.
At your last paragraph, you always come in with a general idea of what to do vs a particular player/matchup though, so you're never starting from scratch. That's all pretty true though. =)
I can answer a few of these for PP.
DL64 is Marth's worst neutral and Falco's best. Marth cannot fsmash underneath platforms, and his utilt/uair cover far less of the platform than other stages. the larger stage gives falco more breathing room, and subsequently makes it more difficult for marth to get in on you. marth gets a pseudo chain grab, so be careful about center stage.
Vs fox's shield pressure, you need to learn what you can do when. vs high nairs, you can do anything you want, but vs delayed aerials, you just have to wait it out, roll away, or hold down and mash L+A or B if you're at low percentage.
Vs badly spaced nair/bair at low percentage, always, always CC shine. If you can't, and aren't in the position to be knocked off stage, DI down and away (teching, if applicable) to make it more difficult for Fox to follow stuff up.
Vs well-spaced aerials you're just going to have to DI away. perfectly spaced nair and bair cannot be punished. fox is faster and hes just outside of the range for any of your quick moves.
I'm cool with that other stuff but you can shoot spaced aerials or hop over them and punish with a Nair usually.
I think he's trying to figure the same thing out...
LOL it's almost like you knew you were gonna talk to me about this you jerk. <3
Falco's combos are so much more difficult than tech chasing with fox.
:|
yeee
Continue to play the game until Falco's and Fox's combos are not that hard to do anymore.. there ya go.
They're not "hard" to do, but tougher to finish/start up on better players as they'll have better control of their defensive options as well. 0-deaths don't happen continuously in spacie matchups because of this....or the players just aren't good enough, but I think if it were that easy then it'd be happening a lot more frequently then.
how hard a combo is to do should almost not be mentioned when discussing "top level" of play.
low/mid levels of play shouldn't even be discussed, imo, because we should all be striving to be on that top level.
with that said, i suck at this game. i'm clearly playing at bottom level. lol so phuck it.
link beats falco at low levels of play. DISCUS.
Depends on the combo and matchup really. Unless you mean just any given combo, then I kinda can go with that except DI mixups and all sort of makes that less common at higher level as well.
eat a dude's butt with a side of cottage cheese
bahahhaahahaha <333
peepee what %s can marth fair you out of uthrow --> followup
Depends on whether he DIs the lasers or not. Grabbing at 0% and DI'ing out seemed to give M2K enough time to Fair me, but I think if I grabbed at 10% or after then I typically got away with it. I mean if Marth DIs the lasers up then it shouldn't work at all, but apparently Marths don't know that, even though Toasty showed me it when he stayed at my house(<3).
Not true. There could be things in either match that actually resulted in a players victory that had nothing to do with the winning player. Look at the whole set and you can gather a lot (especially since it is such a long set) of information such as either players ability (or lack of) to learn/adapt to the other player.
edit: oh friendly matches
agreed
no Jman is a better player
falco has the advantage. Shiz loses to NO Fox with his Falco, same with Mango, and lambchops doesn't go worse than 50/50 with the best fox's either. Just combo the **** out of him and stop his dance dance game with lasers (his strongest asset vs many other characters)
sheik and marth lose to falco
but go even with fox
Where do you draw the line M2K? Jman better than Shiz? Jman better than Chops? So what if you use modern Falcos anyway? All the current Foxes are BEHIND in the metagame anyway, at least vs Falco(not by a crazy amount anymore though....Foxes have been catchin up thanks to Mango lol).
Fox combos the everloving **** out of Falco back and can gimp him easier and tech chase him easier and edgeguard him easier and platform camp AND he doesn't need his dash dance game vs Falco and Falco isn't even fast so losing that isn't a big deal when Fox can still move in spurts. Lasers are slow so Fox can see them coming. You don't need powershielding. Platform camping draws higher lasers anyway so then Fox can get down and close the gap between him and Falco quickly since he's fast and all.
true
mango's falco ***** me sometimes and always beats me more than 50%
drpp can beat me
forward can beat me sometimes
zhu beat me
PC in his prime can beat me
the 1 friendly I had with bomb solder at OC3 he beat me (even though I ranked much higher)
fox's I lose to majority of the time: 0
and I don't just base off that, Dash dance is Marth's best move and it is taken away against Falco it changes EVERYTHING
(btw Ken always told me he thought Marth loses to both space animals esp. falco and i've always agreed with him both before and after I was about to beat Ken)
chain grab is only good on FD
the space animals can just illusion or fire fox to a platform on most stages and live for a long time. Marth has no strong aerial to kill them quickly.
Falco is slow so wtf does DD even matter? WD is definitely fast enough, as are Marth's aerials and other attacks which all have more range than Falco......
Wtf Ken learned the Falco matchup and beat PC back. Ken beat Bombsolider....I dunno I guess he was just too good....
CG is good to rack damage until you get platform tech chases to a kill or massive damage. It may not outright kill but it sure gets the super safe CC %s knocked out of the way. Plus the grabs can alternatively set up gimps or tech chases, which also make your life easier. So much can be done off a grab M2K why am I telling you this lol.
I've seen lucky get almost jv 5d by mango's falco in person. Just learn how to combo the **** out of Fox and he is done. It works on every stage, while chain grab is only broken on FD
It's not like Mango plays lucky every day and knows him inside and out or anything.....
Fox can combo really hard without CG, it's just much easier on FD, just like it's much easier for Falco to punish very hard off of an opening there as well.
I'd say fox vs marth is even... and falco vs marth is debatably either way. Marth players haven't gotten to the point where they're abusing a lot of things like SDI'ing lasers and powershielding continuously.
Also, I loved your analysis of the MU niko... I love doing MUs like that
agreed at that last marth sentence.
IB and Diakonos have beat great falcos like shiz, chops, blunted object, sion, etc. And m2k has also beat them all at some some point.
Its not like falco's straight dominate marths idk what you guys are smoking.
But i wil lsay this, marth's like to cry cuz they can't DD, I agree with what PP was saying earlier about how the anti-falco metagame sucks right now.
marths don't powershield, they don't fair immediately after being laser'd and othe rthings, and they still do fine because marth has amazing combos and gimps.
yall trippin.
worrrrd
about puff
i 4 stocked jmans fox twice and hax's fox twice just before apex2 with puff
by getting the lead in the beginning of the game then planking
they both think it's broken, the puffs refuse to use it, with it she is god-tier
Hax plays Fox???
Did Jman give up vs you partway through because you talked about it being broken? There are a lot of details left out that would be important since that match was a friendly. Plus, Jman could have figured the strategy out given more time.
It's an amazing strat, but I think it can be beaten with patience and precision.
Hopefully. I wish I could practice against it.
Lol. Sion is a great falco. There's lots of room for improvement (and I know the particulars), but he's very legit and I'm proud of him. Rubyiris appears to me to be someone who somehow feels upset when another is praised. Is it because you feel that you are comparable and that you should be receiving props, too? I think this is the second time you've been harping on Sion.
Anyway while I'm on Falco boards I want to say thank you for you hard working falcos. I seriously think it's you guys that keep the melee metagame moving along. <3
Never thought about it like that, thanks Diakonos. Def hittin you up for talks and smash next tourney we're at. =)
i think if falco gets under or behind marth he wins and doesnt get grabbed by ledge.
i think marth wins if falco lets himself get grabbed. or double jumps like an idiot.
Marth powershilding to wd grab is really good, but cross up down airs ***** like 80-90 percent of marth options if hes too close to jab/fair cleanly. Even if it does hit clean, falcos should reset the stage space or just down air etc. out of hit stun instead of doing other **** and getting grabbed. Marth can aim a light shield back etc to shield grab deep down airs but as of right now m2k is the only one that can do that semi- consistently.
90 percent of falcos hate marth because they suck at dealing with hit stun and let marth hit the ground.
Theres just really simple things that marth cant deal with well. cross up aerials and being above falco.
Unless Marth's damage is pretty high, he probably won't take too much damage if he's above Falco, and Marth usually just WD away if Falco's behind him. Sure they're not favorable positions, but it certainly isn't comparable to being grabbed or above Marth....
Marth can force grabs on Falco just fine, and he can bait DJs pretty well too.
More getting behind Marth stuff. Marth can shield DI Falco's shield pressure or simply WD OOS since Falco's pressure stuff isn't as fast as Fox's and be fine. Shield DI makes your life easier either way with that too.
I'm now apparently good vs Marth but hate what he could do that no one does. Guess I'm a statistic.
Falco can't deal with all of his approaches being countered or being shut down by Marth once he's wary of approaching. Powershielding, taking lasers in the air or on the ground to a move/WD/whatever, or getting under Falco's lasers all still seem pretty solid methods for dealing with Falco's lasers on approaches, and I've already been over the numerous defensive things Marth can do vs Falco's stuff, but will gladly go over it again.
So back to the whole Falco vs Sheik/Marth discussion.
I personally feel Marth is easier to shut down for a couple of reasons.
1. His SH doesn't go over lasers like Sheik's.
2. He relies on dash dances a lot, as M2K pointed out earlier in this thread I believe. Sheik doesn't, but her WD out of shield is faster than his (plus her shield is bigger, making PSing easier and reducing the chances of getting shield stabbed).
3. Her gimps are just as good as Marth's.
4. Sheik's nair out of shield is much faster than Marth's fair out of shield.
5. Her combos are more guaranteed at KO percents.
The only thing Marth really has is grab combos. But I don't think that is enough to compensate for what he lacks.
Those are my thoughts, anyway.
1. Eh that doesn't really matter. They just deal with lasers differently.
2. same thing
3. Hmm I feel like Marth's Dthrow sends spacies lower but otherwise I guess so? I dunno.
4. Used for different things
5. Marth tends to rack up damage/kill better with a grab so it just seems like a trade off to me. Besides, if Marth swats Falco offstage then he just gets those pretty easy edgeguards anyway.
1. Sheiks Sh going over lasers isnt all that useful. Her aerial mobility is garbage, and her downward priority is generally also pretty terrible. If sheik makes it her perogative to sh over your lasers, lol, you could place uptilt, bairs, sh rising dairs, almost anything in her way and **** her he balls off. this is more of a negative than anything, because s jumping sheik is the ****-bait
2. Tru about the DD. is her WD oos really "faster" ? interesting, i dont know the frames on their jumps.
3. debatable, but i think its marth favor reason i'll describe in a longer post when i have more time.
4. sheiks nair is 6 frames. Marths fair iirc is 8 frames. but i think what you might be saying is that it technically takes time for marth's sword to arc from over his head down to hit you so i see your point.
5. I feel like marths relative ease/reliably at low percents, makes up for his lack of high percent combo/ko moves. Its like a tradeoff. sheik has trouble building damage with hard techchases at low percents, but easy combo into kill moves at high percents. Marth is the opposite. but i feel like its ok for marth because once your at that kill percent, he doesn't need to combo into a kill move anyway, any random hit that sends you offstage and then he just trusts his edgeguarding.
as an aside, CC'ing is far more effective vs sheik at useful percents because of the way both of their movesets work.
so idk, those are my thoughts. I'll make a longer posts about how i feel about their gimping ability later tonight when i've got more time.
so yea, overall, i think marth is the harder matchup personally
1. It can be mixed up well enough that you can't bait it that easily. Plus, I don't think Utilt or anything beats Sheiks Fair. If Sheik Bairs from a SH over a laser, then lol for sure.
2. yeah I'd like to know that too.
3. aww
4. Marth can move backward so it doesn't matter as much, but like I said before they're used for different things and both do their job well.
5. I suck at CC'ing vs Sheik
I wished the
boards was as good as the
boards.
You guys need to stop talkin about who's cute and stuff lol. =p
Platform drop Fair / waveland off platform Fair are where it's at for Sheik in the Falco MU
Gah dang it so true. =(
1. doesn't matter, sheik's SH over lasers still gives falco stage control from a distance, and at close range falco should engage sheik w/o lasers anyway because as DR pointed out, sheik can just CC grab the laser lead in and falco gets *****. falco has to be cautious w/ laser > grounded followup to begin with, so sheik's SH is worth very little.
2. falco has to be wary of marth's DD at a close range because laser is ineffective there. remember that falco's primary use of laser is stage control, or safe approaches on aerial opponents that are about to land. marth's DD is gimped but not substantially. if you want to gimp marth's DD, CP hm to brinstar or RC.
3. false. sheik has AMAZING gimps and edge guarding, but it's still ultimately inferior to marth's because he can grab or fair to grab and his throws happen to reliably lead into said gimps.
4. marth shouldn't use fair OOS vs falco. if marth is given a safe, fast OOS option, WD back is fine. Marth's WD back forces falco to drop his offensive, since falco loses all of his attacking momentum and it's a very poor decision for falco to attack at that range. falco's best option is to retreat and set up a new attack angle that is more advantageous, something that falco doesn't want to do since he's a very momentum heavy character in the first place.
5. yup, totally agree.
I think you underplay marth's grab game vs falco a LOT. marth's grabs are utterly destructive vs falco and marth's grab is extremely dangerous to begin with. You also make no points to address that sheik is basically combo practice for falco, and just has a beautiful weight and fall speed to keep getting hit by marginally proficient falcos.
falco's approaches ARE limited and he does have observable holes in his offense. The general trick to beating falco is exploiting these holes in the first place. fox has notably fewer holes, so it's common to see a falco player use fox effectively but much less likely to see a fox using falco properly.
edit: no one new school understands marth at all. how disappointing.
1. Wouldn't it be better for Sheik to WD back or Ftilt instead of grab when she takes a laser? Also I thought you couldn't really CC lasers??
2. Word
3. I feel like Marth's are easier too, but I don't play Sheik enough to know for sure. eh
4. Fair OOS is used more for countering laser approaches and not pressure itself. I agree with the rest of that stuff you said.
5. I wish I comboed Sheik's better so I could see what you're saying, but yeah the rest I'm 4000% agreeing with.
I think "requires frame perfect reaction" is a stretch.
edit: I think percentage dependencies for follows are also somewhat exaggerated. For a while you do U-tilt. Then at like 50% you switch to tipped aerials (Fair, Uair) or you tip an F-smash. For the first 50% of the chain grab you do pretty much the same thing every time vs. Falco. You regrab to 32 or so, U-tilt, regrab, U-tilt, regrab, then you're at 50. And then you wow the audience with your awesome combo skills.
yee
I'm '05. In my opinion it's easier to fight Falco with Sheik, but I think Unbreon giving Marth a bit too much credit.
I hardly DD against Falco as Marth. Maybe I am missing something, but laser control works well against me, and forces me to play out of my shield. I think fair oos is okay unless the Falco is obviously ready for it. I also don't believe that "utterly destructive" is suitable to describe Marth's grab game. Good falcos know when to CC on platforms and many times the gays on the edge just don't work like they used to.
Sheik's b-throw gimps are as good as Marth's d-throw gimps, in my opinion.
possibly
there are ways around CC'ing on platforms I'm pretty sure.
could you explain why?
@ m2k yeah i know there's more but i didn't feel like getting into details >__>
but yeah i know there's a range you have to pivot grab or something vs slight di/no di (i dunno when it starts for falco though, fox is like 20 iirc) because otherwise the space animals can shine out or w/e
at 16 or so you have to move forward to get the regrab, and there's another percent for behind (i think it's higher)
at 0 if he di into you the regrab doesn't work (either he can shake and land on feet and shine first, or the grab literally doesn't combo, or both, i forget) so you have to f-throw (beats di in), or u-throw (beats all other di) and mix it up, or try to d-throw tech chase if you can
@ cactuar
you make this game sound so dumb sometimes lolololol
but yeah basically
I quoted this thinking I'd have a legit response but I didn't....
officially announcing "beats fast, bass down low: a dr peepee combo video"
coming to a youtube near you in december 2011
I dunno if I'm playin a puff soon.
sorry jason/charles i actually agree @ the washed-up has been thing. i was talking to chu yesterday and it's very apparent to both of us that we're not nearly as good at melee as we were and obviously never will be that good again.
that said, I still understand the game @ ruby. your technical ability is more than ample to do what you need to do in order to beat the people you're losing to in videos. your spacing is bad and you make no attempt to outsmart the opponent visibly in any way. you're the staple "stupid falco" that mashes buttons, sometimes in a manner that does like a 2 hit combo but never really more than that unless your opponent DIs bad. i watched some of your videos from early 2009 and you play the exact same suggesting no improvement whatsoever. this isn't even hate at this point, it's just simple observation.
What was that discussion like, if you don't mind my asking? I'm very interested by that topic.
wow i was the first reply in that thread
old school
on MARTH:
people seem to forget he has a ****ty shield especially on top. after his shield takes a few hits if he's in a position where he can't do anything but shield you can literally just aim dairs at his head and he will get hit
It's hard to stay on good Marths' shields that long though....
good marths don't shield
actually, my advice is probably the best he's gotten. being told what not to do over and over eliminates things that don't work and at the end only leaves things that do work. I told him why he sucks, so eliminating those problems one at a time given his technical proficiency is probably the best way for him to learn. as a side note, this teaching technique works really well in brawl too, since "technical proficiency" is so much easier to achieve. when you want to teach someone, you must first determine what teaching method will be most effective. this is why i agreed to teach you pokemon under the stipulation that you continue to use lanturn, so you'll understand why everyone else is telling you not to now.
I have a reputation as an excellent teacher. don't blow me off so quickly.
I miss posts like these a lot.
Also good Marths shield enough to bait and do OOS options I'm sure. They can't always be swinging their swords around or jumping or on platforms or something. It's just spurts of movement I'd say that happen to involve shield.
yeah utilt > shine but more dairs > utilt a lot of the time. something like dair -> utilt -> lots of dairs is good smoetimes.
mango is smarter than us so he uses dtilts but i dont understand how to make that work, i always just die. might wanna try it out though?
Dtilt is amazing and leads into cool things but it's weird in that you have to do more Dtilts or WD out of using it.
I should have a cool Dtilt combo you guys will see soon enough though. =p
I'm pretty sure I've beaten people in tournament with Falco while using only dair. Nothing else. Dair is so underrated. Despite being tied with lasers, shine, lasers, and utilt for best overall Falco move.
@Umbreon: I don't feel like I've improved in the last two years... When will I fall into that washed-up catagory?
I always asked what to do vs low tiers vs good low tier players, and they always told me to Dair lol. That move is super good.
You don't think you've improved? Dang.....well I guess you just don't play as much as you used to so it makes some sense...
PP I am offended that my question did not make #4 on your list. no name falcos such as myself take prio over Cactuar.
Even over the internet it's hard to type mean things to you being as I am such a fan boy <3
and YES make a critique thread, if you do, I will buy a dazzle with my first paycheck this week.
Lol hey man I'm rushed what can I say? =p
I'm glad you like my Falco though. =) Preciate it.
Also I'll probably make it if I ever finish responding to everything lol.
aight
You should definitely make a critique thread.
okay I guess I will then lol, and if Mogwai doesn't like it for whatever reason then I guess he could always close it.
