PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[DtJ SmithZzz]

lol @ calling sion good.

good one.

"HURR DURR I JUST SPAM HIGH AERIALS AND HOPE MY OPPONENT DOESNT KNOW HOW TO PUSH SHEILD+A"

Can't wait til you come over Kevin on New Years so we can laugh at the post quoted above.
It'll be a ****ing blast.
You'll be like this the whole time.

 

[Rubyiris]

Lol. Sion is a great falco. There's lots of room for improvement (and I know the particulars), but he's very legit and I'm proud of him. Rubyiris appears to me to be someone who somehow feels upset when another is praised. Is it because you feel that you are comparable and that you should be receiving props, too? I think this is the second time you've been harping on Sion.

Anyway while I'm on Falco boards I want to say thank you for you hard working falcos. I seriously think it's you guys that keep the melee metagame moving along. <3

I just hate sions falco. i think it looks like a scrubby pos, and what other people say about it wont change my opinion. don't try to read too far into my posts. my posts arent that deep.

kid should learn how to mix his **** up tho. the guys never does anything but rising dairs and hopes it hits.

There's a reason you kinda **** the kid, and thats the major reason behind it.

You guys can laugh at my posts all you like, it doesn't matter to me.

and lol at jpobs thinking he has any semblance of intelligence. thanks for the entertainment, guys!

 

[booshk]

from what i've seen, i'm far better.

trolololololol

 

[Diakonos]

trolololololol

Didnt know you sung!

 

[ChivalRuse]

Rubyiris, do you seriously think Sion isn't good?

From what I've seen, he seems pretty amazing.

 

[cjugs]

i'm having a terrible time teching the ledge i can do it no problem with link though is this becuase he is bigger or something? Is there a different method with falco?

 

[JPOBS]

lol enough of spamming this great thread with responses to ruby's ignorance.

lets go back to falco discussion guys.

cjugs: theres no difference in methodology, or technique, but bigger character have a easier tme teching the wall because their bodies are more likely to touch the wall due to sdi. my only advice would be to try to sdi farther into the wall to compensate for falco's smaller body.

 

[ChivalRuse]

So back to the whole Falco vs Sheik/Marth discussion.

I personally feel Marth is easier to shut down for a couple of reasons.

1. His SH doesn't go over lasers like Sheik's.
2. He relies on dash dances a lot, as M2K pointed out earlier in this thread I believe. Sheik doesn't, but her WD out of shield is faster than his (plus her shield is bigger, making PSing easier and reducing the chances of getting shield stabbed).
3. Her gimps are just as good as Marth's.
4. Sheik's nair out of shield is much faster than Marth's fair out of shield.
5. Her combos are more guaranteed at KO percents.

The only thing Marth really has is grab combos. But I don't think that is enough to compensate for what he lacks.

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

 

[JPOBS]

1. His SH doesn't go over lasers like Sheik's.
2. He relies on dash dances a lot, as M2K pointed out earlier in this thread I believe. Sheik doesn't, but her WD out of shield is faster than his (plus her shield is bigger, making PSing easier and reducing the chances of getting shield stabbed).
3. Her gimps are just as good as Marth's.
4. Sheik's nair out of shield is much faster than Marth's fair out of shield.
5. Her combos are more guaranteed at KO percents.

The only thing Marth really has is grab combos. But I don't think that is enough to compensate for what he lacks.

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

1. Sheiks Sh going over lasers isnt all that useful. Her aerial mobility is garbage, and her downward priority is generally also pretty terrible. If sheik makes it her perogative to sh over your lasers, lol, you could place uptilt, bairs, sh rising dairs, almost anything in her way and **** her he balls off. this is more of a negative than anything, because s jumping sheik is the ****-bait

2. Tru about the DD. is her WD oos really "faster" ? interesting, i dont know the frames on their jumps.

3. debatable, but i think its marth favor reason i'll describe in a longer post when i have more time.

4. sheiks nair is 6 frames. Marths fair iirc is 8 frames. but i think what you might be saying is that it technically takes time for marth's sword to arc from over his head down to hit you so i see your point.

5. I feel like marths relative ease/reliably at low percents, makes up for his lack of high percent combo/ko moves. Its like a tradeoff. sheik has trouble building damage with hard techchases at low percents, but easy combo into kill moves at high percents. Marth is the opposite. but i feel like its ok for marth because once your at that kill percent, he doesn't need to combo into a kill move anyway, any random hit that sends you offstage and then he just trusts his edgeguarding.

as an aside, CC'ing is far more effective vs sheik at useful percents because of the way both of their movesets work.
so idk, those are my thoughts. I'll make a longer posts about how i feel about their gimping ability later tonight when i've got more time.

so yea, overall, i think marth is the harder matchup personally

 

[stingers]

Can't wait til you come over Kevin on New Years so we can laugh at the post quoted above.
It'll be a ****ing blast.
You'll be like this the whole time.

yoo...tell him to pick me up for that

 

[metalreflectslime]

I wished the boards was as good as the boards.

 

[xXx-NoobKing-xXx]

So it's settled. Sion IS good.

 

[ChivalRuse]

1. Sheiks Sh going over lasers isnt all that useful. Her aerial mobility is garbage, and her downward priority is generally also pretty terrible. If sheik makes it her perogative to sh over your lasers, lol, you could place uptilt, bairs, sh rising dairs, almost anything in her way and **** her he balls off. this is more of a negative than anything, because s jumping sheik is the ****-bait

2. Tru about the DD. is her WD oos really "faster" ? interesting, i dont know the frames on their jumps.

3. debatable, but i think its marth favor reason i'll describe in a longer post when i have more time.

4. sheiks nair is 6 frames. Marths fair iirc is 8 frames. but i think what you might be saying is that it technically takes time for marth's sword to arc from over his head down to hit you so i see your point.

5. I feel like marths relative ease/reliably at low percents, makes up for his lack of high percent combo/ko moves. Its like a tradeoff. sheik has trouble building damage with hard techchases at low percents, but easy combo into kill moves at high percents. Marth is the opposite. but i feel like its ok for marth because once your at that kill percent, he doesn't need to combo into a kill move anyway, any random hit that sends you offstage and then he just trusts his edgeguarding.

as an aside, CC'ing is far more effective vs sheik at useful percents because of the way both of their movesets work.
so idk, those are my thoughts. I'll make a longer posts about how i feel about their gimping ability later tonight when i've got more time.

so yea, overall, i think marth is the harder matchup personally

Yeah, I could see it going either way. I didn't mean to imply that Marth was significantly worse against Falco, only slightly.

Anyway to clarify:

1. I suppose you have a point here. Especially since Sheik SHing over lasers is utilized in the same way as Marth's dash attack under lasers. The latter is a bit less reliable, but it's also safer, since you stay on the ground, commit to fewer frames of vulnerability, and still have CC possibilities open at lower %.

2. Sheik's jump is 4 frames. Marth's is 5. Although this is only 1 frame of difference (since WDing requires jumping), the real distinction between their WDs is that Marth's forces him to commit to momentum in whichever direction he wavedashes, whereas Sheik's momentum remains static, giving her better control after that WD occurs.

3. This is an entire other discussion, if we want to go into it. I'm not an expert in Marth or Sheik, but I'm sure we could ask others for input.

4. The real use for nair out of shield is that you can use it to interrupt shield pressure (and it still has use as an anti laser tool). Nair out of shield and grab are both 7 frames - while grab is arguably easier to be frame precise with since spamming shield grab requires little timing, nair is significantly better in that situation: it allows you first to introduce a lasting hitbox, whereas the grabbox is only out for frames 7-8. Secondly, you can retreat safely away via nair; whiffing a grab leaves you vulnerable (and people usually bait shield grabs anyway).

5. What I meant was that her combos lead to kill moves better than Marth's. Marth doesn't really have moves that prep for a tipper or dair, and those that do tend to be easily avoided with combo escape DI.

As for Sheik's issues with crouch cancelling - well, she runs into this issue in any matchup. Sheik deals with CCing naturally by using only needles, bair, and nair, same way Marth deals with CCing by tipping his moves + the occasional dair.

 

[meatpopsicle]

i'm having a terrible time teching the ledge i can do it no problem with link though is this becuase he is bigger or something? Is there a different method with falco?

I'm not sure why there would be a different method for ledge teching for either character. Maybe you aren't as consistent with Falco because you're just so used to timing it with Link. When you hug the ledge with Falco as you're recovering, you can change up the directionality of his recovery moreso than with Link, so the timing might also be slightly more contextual. Also keep in mind that no matter how fast a character moves, the timing to ledge tech is a lot earlier than you may think it is.

My best advice to learning ledge teching is to kind of think of it as a rhythm game depending on the edge guarding. If ledge teching becomes your only recovery option, set yourself up so you are hugging the ledge as much as possible. When Falco's up-b goes off (whatever the hell it's called), you time pressing L or R based on a) your initial position with respect to the edge b) how fast the attack that will hit you comes out c) the direction it will send you in (down or away from the stage) d) the hitstun of the attack and e) your percentage. I'm not really sure about how to change up your timing with different %'s, but I find it easier to tech at higher percentages (up to a certain point) for some reason (more hitstun?). Maybe someone else can expand upon that.

What I'm trying to get at is that it should become a pretty exciting rhythm game once you've developed enough muscle memory to ledge tech in a variety of situations. For moves like Fox and Falco's D-smash, the timing is especially early. If an attack sends you down, the timing is slightly later than if it just sends you away. To finish off the game, remember to press over-b or up-b so you don't get screwed over again.

Someone should make sure I'm not sending misinformation haha. Maybe I'm overcomplicating this so as a general piece of advice, if you miss the ledge tech, try it earlier next time the same situation pops up.

 

[Rubyiris]

DGDTJ friendlies: Rubyiris (Blue) vs Trahh (Default) Falco Dittos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRAkLYQ_ZbA

Figured I'd post these. Any advice? First game is kind of a bad example, though. I just choob it up and get *****. Any of the others I lose are fine.

Disclaimer: Spot dodges are failed shine OOS, and it takes me like 5 matches to properly edge guard quick phantasms.

I like how this was completely ignored.

inb4 some ****** like jpobs tries to start **** for some stupid reason.

 

[Linguini]

LOL people on smashboards don't know what the **** their talking about, especially big-headed scrubs like rubyiris. get better at the game son rofl.

Chops is an extremely talented player, people forget the fact that he hasn't put effort in this game since like genesis. When he is on point and actually practicing it's pretty scary.

 

[Niko45]

Describing Sheik tech chasing as hard and Marth chain grabbing as easy seems inaccurate to me.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Platform drop Fair / waveland off platform Fair are where it's at for Sheik in the Falco MU

 

[Deleted member]

So back to the whole Falco vs Sheik/Marth discussion.

I personally feel Marth is easier to shut down for a couple of reasons.

1. His SH doesn't go over lasers like Sheik's.
2. He relies on dash dances a lot, as M2K pointed out earlier in this thread I believe. Sheik doesn't, but her WD out of shield is faster than his (plus her shield is bigger, making PSing easier and reducing the chances of getting shield stabbed).
3. Her gimps are just as good as Marth's.
4. Sheik's nair out of shield is much faster than Marth's fair out of shield.
5. Her combos are more guaranteed at KO percents.

The only thing Marth really has is grab combos. But I don't think that is enough to compensate for what he lacks.

Those are my thoughts, anyway.

1. doesn't matter, sheik's SH over lasers still gives falco stage control from a distance, and at close range falco should engage sheik w/o lasers anyway because as DR pointed out, sheik can just CC grab the laser lead in and falco gets *****. falco has to be cautious w/ laser > grounded followup to begin with, so sheik's SH is worth very little.
2. falco has to be wary of marth's DD at a close range because laser is ineffective there. remember that falco's primary use of laser is stage control, or safe approaches on aerial opponents that are about to land. marth's DD is gimped but not substantially. if you want to gimp marth's DD, CP hm to brinstar or RC.
3. false. sheik has AMAZING gimps and edge guarding, but it's still ultimately inferior to marth's because he can grab or fair to grab and his throws happen to reliably lead into said gimps.
4. marth shouldn't use fair OOS vs falco. if marth is given a safe, fast OOS option, WD back is fine. Marth's WD back forces falco to drop his offensive, since falco loses all of his attacking momentum and it's a very poor decision for falco to attack at that range. falco's best option is to retreat and set up a new attack angle that is more advantageous, something that falco doesn't want to do since he's a very momentum heavy character in the first place.
5. yup, totally agree.

I think you underplay marth's grab game vs falco a LOT. marth's grabs are utterly destructive vs falco and marth's grab is extremely dangerous to begin with. You also make no points to address that sheik is basically combo practice for falco, and just has a beautiful weight and fall speed to keep getting hit by marginally proficient falcos.

falco's approaches ARE limited and he does have observable holes in his offense. The general trick to beating falco is exploiting these holes in the first place. fox has notably fewer holes, so it's common to see a falco player use fox effectively but much less likely to see a fox using falco properly.

edit: no one new school understands marth at all. how disappointing.

 

[KILLA.FOR.CASH.]

umbreon- am i new school? X_X

 

[Sage Osaka]

Describing Sheik tech chasing as hard and Marth chain grabbing as easy seems inaccurate to me.

i cant say much about sheiks tech chasing, but ive always thought the same thing about marths chain grabs. they require just about frame perfect reaction if your opponent knows how to di and at what %'s, along with knowing what percent to give up the chain grabs and start with utilts/uairs considering how they are di'ing

 

[Palpi]

So it's settled. Sion IS good.

And he would **** ruby.

fixed.

 

[KirbyKaze]

i cant say much about sheiks tech chasing, but ive always thought the same thing about marths chain grabs. they require just about frame perfect reaction if your opponent knows how to di and at what %'s, along with knowing what percent to give up the chain grabs and start with utilts/uairs considering how they are di'ing

lol wut

 

[Niko45]

I mean I don't think chaingrabbing with Marth is THAT hard Sage but it's not free or easy, it's not a 0-death ever, and outside of FD it's pretty situational that you're going to actually cg fully from 0 - tip utilt.

But then again, there was a whole outcry a page ago about how Fox tech chasing being hard is made obsolete by high level play so I guess it doesn't matter either way.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think "requires frame perfect reaction" is a stretch.

edit: I think percentage dependencies for follows are also somewhat exaggerated. For a while you do U-tilt. Then at like 50% you switch to tipped aerials (Fair, Uair) or you tip an F-smash. For the first 50% of the chain grab you do pretty much the same thing every time vs. Falco. You regrab to 32 or so, U-tilt, regrab, U-tilt, regrab, then you're at 50. And then you wow the audience with your awesome combo skills.

 

[JPeGImage]

. . . no way Jr is new school. . . too methotical in your thought proccess and not fancy enough. . . =D

hey keith! Im in the ec visiting relatives before I go back to vegas to work. . . im caught between two extremes of climates, even though vegas is alil better during the winter (a little)
its not the best thing atm for me in the short term. . . but I guess itll do considering i have no clue what I wanna do w/ my life in certain aspects like where I want to live and specifically what concentration of finance I want to work in
my smash addiction or skills arent exactly getting tended to either. . . . not practicing or playing other ppl nearly as much as I would. . . . which really doesnt bug me too much, i guess

I have a question for this thread I guess: Has the change in metagame over the past 4 years done nothing but favor falco in the marth and sheik matchups? or has it been back and forth at certain stages? why? is it ONLY because falcos been found to be more of a technically and aggressively apt char moreso than the others?

 

[Diakonos]

I'm '05. In my opinion it's easier to fight Falco with Sheik, but I think Unbreon giving Marth a bit too much credit.

I hardly DD against Falco as Marth. Maybe I am missing something, but laser control works well against me, and forces me to play out of my shield. I think fair oos is okay unless the Falco is obviously ready for it. I also don't believe that "utterly destructive" is suitable to describe Marth's grab game. Good falcos know when to CC on platforms and many times the gays on the edge just don't work like they used to.

Sheik's b-throw gimps are as good as Marth's d-throw gimps, in my opinion.

 

[JPOBS]

Describing Sheik tech chasing as hard and Marth chain grabbing as easy seems inaccurate to me.

I'm speaking purely from experience when I say this, but mid level Marths are all really proficient at the chain grab. Like even Marths that don't make brackets at nationals, can do the chain grab and low percent combos no problem.

Other the flip side, I've played tons of sheiks, but only the kirbykaze, drephen and Tope have consistently done the tech chase well. The mid level sheiks mess up a TON. To me, that indicates that Marth's stuff must be easier.

@ ruby: I find it funny that you make a statement like "*****es like jpobs try to start ****" even after I've clearly let the topic go and weren't even speaking to you anymore. Way to shoot yourself in the foot. Then u wonder why you get ignored when u ask for help. No one respects u.

 

[Diakonos]

Other the flip side, I've played tons of sheiks, but only the kirbykaze, drephen and Tope have consistently done the tech chase well. The mid level sheiks mess up a TON. To me, that indicates that Marth's stuff must be easy.

Oh .

 

[stingers]

lol @ the kirbykaze...don't give that dude an even bigger head please

 

[Diakonos]

His head's pretty small, it's more the hair. But that fell off recently.

inb4sexualinnuendo

 

[Sage Osaka]

Lol I probably worded my post wrong and made it look like a bit of an exxageration. But basically yeah, the time frame for regrabs after utilt or uthrow at low %s are pretty slim and proper di can throw this out of whack even more.

That isn't to say that I can't do it, I'm probably one of the afforementioned mid level Marths and can pull it off pretty consistently

 

[Rubyiris]

marths CG IS easy.

landing grabs vs good falcos isn't.

So heres something else I like; people talk **** about me saying HURR GET BETTER RUBY but refuse to give critique.

all yall mother****ers are bigheaded hypocrites.

hey linguini, suck my ****.

 

[Jake13]

Maybe you'd get more positive responses if you weren't a fahggot?

On topic: marths cg is a def easier than sheiks throw follow ups

 

[Diakonos]

Ruby, I think part of it is that you're aggressive in your responses. And argumentative (though I haven't seen this with regards to critique).

Post some more matches. I can critique in the fox/sheik/marth matchup.

 

[Mew2King]

there's more specific % stuff than that KK but you have the right idea for the most part

 

[Cactuar]

Lol. Most of the top/high tiers right there. "You grab them... then you grab them a bunch more... then you use moves till they die."

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ m2k yeah i know there's more but i didn't feel like getting into details >__>

but yeah i know there's a range you have to pivot grab or something vs slight di/no di (i dunno when it starts for falco though, fox is like 20 iirc) because otherwise the space animals can shine out or w/e

at 16 or so you have to move forward to get the regrab, and there's another percent for behind (i think it's higher)

at 0 if he di into you the regrab doesn't work (either he can shake and land on feet and shine first, or the grab literally doesn't combo, or both, i forget) so you have to f-throw (beats di in), or u-throw (beats all other di) and mix it up, or try to d-throw tech chase if you can

@ cactuar

you make this game sound so dumb sometimes lolololol

but yeah basically

 

[KAOSTAR]

I upthrow like 3-4 times and then start pivot grabbing for straight up DI. at like 29% I start my reverse uptilt.

Rubyiris man- lol, nobody likes helping *******s. Try being nice.

 

[Rubyiris]

Maybe you'd get more positive responses if you weren't a fahggot?

On topic: marths cg is a def easier than sheiks throw follow ups

You know that I'm gay, right?

Ruby, I think part of it is that you're aggressive in your responses. And argumentative (though I haven't seen this with regards to critique).

Post some more matches. I can critique in the fox/sheik/marth matchup.

I don't have any relevant videos for those m/us. I improved quite a significant amount after DGDTJ and all my videos of those mus are pre-DGDTJ.