PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Brookman]

Not true. There could be things in either match that actually resulted in a players victory that had nothing to do with the winning player. Look at the whole set and you can gather a lot (especially since it is such a long set) of information such as either players ability (or lack of) to learn/adapt to the other player.

edit: oh friendly matches

 

[Rubyiris]

more serioslies than anything. i'd have offered a mm, but i only had 20s.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

yeah, i just told him the same thing over aim, brook. idk i know theres a whole 'mentality' gap considered when it's called a friendly, but these were basically our first matches vs eachother at an out of state, which he's never done, and which i haven't done in awhile. plus we discussed playing prior. i'd say were both trying.

 

[Rubyiris]

i would have played more conservatively if it were a tournament match, but i still took the set seriously. esp since before i started to record Trahhh asked if I wanted to do some serious matches and I accepted.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

yeah agreed, thats one thing, i wouldve been a little more conservative/nervous in tournament. I guess that can make a difference.

 

[Mew2King]

jman dominated zhu sunday at DGDTJ. 3-0

this is a fox that knows the falco matchup VERY well.

it's hard for all of us to judge this matchup without bias, because at lower levels its just flat out easier for falco imo. and then people say crap like oh well it's harder for fox to be more precise and get the combos blah blah, but thats what top level is. precise, not messing up very often. i think it's silly as **** to say it's clearly falcos favor.

no Jman is a better player

falco has the advantage. Shiz loses to NO Fox with his Falco, same with Mango, and lambchops doesn't go worse than 50/50 with the best fox's either. Just combo the **** out of him and stop his dance dance game with lasers (his strongest asset vs many other characters)

sheik and marth lose to falco

but go even with fox

 

[Rubyiris]

no Jman is a better player

falco has the advantage. Shiz loses to NO Fox with his Falco, same with Mango, and lambchops doesn't go worse than 50/50 with the best fox's either. Just combo the **** out of him and stop his dance dance game with lasers (his strongest asset vs many other characters)

sheik and marth lose to falco

but go even with fox

lasers don't stop fox from jumping over lasers, power shielding them, or platform camping. fox doesn't need to dd camp falco, since fox does better against falco if he stays in on falco and shuts him down, since he's a slower character.

Falco's combos are also very easy as fox to avoid. SDI, CC, a faster shine oos, and better mobility, and fox's tech chase game and grab game vs falco is much easier to execute. getting a grab or hard knockdown and just straight up killing Falco is much easier for fox than falco.

marth loses to falco but sheik is arguable. falco has difficulty fighting sheik head on. if she manages to box falco in, it's a stock. falcos mobility is kinda eh, so it's hard to get away from sheiks bull**** when she actually gets in on him.

 

[strawhats]

Jason...seeing you dominate space animals for years leaves me to believe that marth does not lose to falco. I think your being a little hard on yourself in terms of the marth vs falco MU. Your marth looks kinda wierd nowadays as opposed
To a few years ago. I guess what I'm trying to say is you make awkward edgeguarding decisions now. Jump off the stage to reverse dair spike only to get firebird damage. Also you still could've beaten dr. PP a couple of sd's or lack thereof could've made the difference.
Btw Merry Christmas guys

 

[Rubyiris]

the thing is that falcos metagame was nowhere near as developed as it is now back then. the skill and knowledge gap between THREE YEARS AGO and today is GIGIANTIC.

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

freakin' GIGANTIC.

 

[Rubyiris]

My **** is ****ing GIGANTIC.

 

[JPOBS]

marth is like a million times harder for falco than sheik imo.

 

[Rubyiris]

wat. i LOVE fighting marths.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sheik is gay, though, and has nair out of shield.

 

[Rubyiris]

sheik is mad gay.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Where's KK when you need him to complain about his own character being too good? Xp

 

[JPOBS]

sheik is really not that gay. cuz like...even the best sheiks...mess up her combos enough at low percents, to make it like "lol its just sheik". Cuz her combos are like tech chases and stuff and its hard.

but marth has auto chaingrabs that even low-mid level players can do 0-death with a little practice.

great marths make me feel like a fool for playng falco agaisnt them. great sheiks, im still like.....not that intimidated.

thats how i feel anyway

 

[Niko45]

You sound like you might just be way better against sheik.

I agree with m2k in terms of the relativity of fox and falco vs Marth. However I would say Marth beats Fox and goes even with Falco. One thing I feel for sure, Falco is much harder to beat consistently.

 

[Rubyiris]

marth fox is either even, or slight fox favor.

wtf you smoking?

 

[Mew2King]

mango's falco ***** me sometimes and always beats me more than 50%
drpp can beat me
forward can beat me sometimes
zhu beat me
PC in his prime can beat me
the 1 friendly I had with bomb solder at OC3 he beat me (even though I ranked much higher)



fox's I lose to majority of the time: 0

and I don't just base off that, Dash dance is Marth's best move and it is taken away against Falco it changes EVERYTHING

(btw Ken always told me he thought Marth loses to both space animals esp. falco and i've always agreed with him both before and after I was about to beat Ken)

chain grab is only good on FD

the space animals can just illusion or fire fox to a platform on most stages and live for a long time. Marth has no strong aerial to kill them quickly.

 

[Druggedfox]

I'm pretty sure as a contrast to mango+shiz's falco beating all the foxes, mango+shiz's fox probably also do equally well vs all the falco players...

W/e sheik's gay.

 

[Mew2King]

I've seen lucky get almost jv 5d by mango's falco in person. Just learn how to combo the **** out of Fox and he is done. It works on every stage, while chain grab is only broken on FD

 

[ChivalRuse]

What about Puff vs Falco?

 

[LumpyCPU...]

the conversation was about the fox vs falco matchup and now it's about who does better against marth and sheik?

cool. i don't care. all i know is it must be cool to say "i beat ken"

 

[Niko45]

marth fox is either even, or slight fox favor.

wtf you smoking?

Definitely wrong. Fox is easy.

There's nothing inhibiting your movement so you just move as he moves and punish any commitment or eventually just box him in.

And if somehow you got hit you just cc grab everything and you're fine. Dair's range sucks and you really shouldn't get hit by it (plus you can SDI it).

And if he tries to get cute and run away laser or anything you just go hit him cause you easily have the tools to do that.

Marths losing to Fox have no excuse imo, just got outplayed.

But whatever if you think Fox v Marth is even then my response is that if that's the case then Falco beats Marth.

 

[Druggedfox]

I'd say fox vs marth is even... and falco vs marth is debatably either way. Marth players haven't gotten to the point where they're abusing a lot of things like SDI'ing lasers and powershielding continuously.

Also, I loved your analysis of the MU niko... I love doing MUs like that

 

[Niko45]

lol, make it sound so one-sided? Yea, it's fun. :D

 

[Sage Osaka]

If the metagame were a little closer, I'd say that marth beats fox, but as it stands with Marths horribly underdeveloped metagame vs foxes highly developed metagame, it's just about even, so consider that.

The same might be able to be said for falco but that's just a little harder to call, being that any good falco will basically beat any good marth by todays standards, maybe excluding m2k on his good days

 

[#HBC | Mac]

right because ib didn't beat chops and shiz at apex and hbk didn't beat chops like everytime they play

 

[Rubyiris]

falco DOES beat marth lmao. i never said he didnt. that matchup is EZ for falco as long as the falco isnt a moron and jumps into the ****.

just because falco can combo fox, doesn't mean its easy for falco to actually GET a launcher. people really need to stop underestimating how well a fox can avoid falcos ****.

lol @ using chops as an argument. that guys a washed up mediocre has-been. try using CURRENT good falcos as an argument, plz.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I mean what other good marths vs good falcos sets have there been recently?

edit: diakonos beat sion the last time they played

 

[makoforce]

Can anyone discuss the Shine Platform waveland thing. Its really somethig i wanna get down but i not clear on how to do it.

 

[Rubyiris]

pp vs m2k is the only real one tbh. shiz and falcomist were both off-point for their set.

good marth vs good spacie is a m/u that hasnt happened in a very long time. spacies are only now starting to start winning tourneys since they're finally finding out that puff is nowhere near a good character as they THOUGHT she was. LMAO.

but yeah. i dont understand why chops is so widely praised. hes a mediocre falco and hes never placed well at anything meaningful.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Can anyone discuss the Shine Platform waveland thing. Its really somethig i wanna get down but i not clear on how to do it.

Shine (down b), jump cancel, waveland (L or R angled downward when you pass just above a platform). Done.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

sage said excluding m2k so I didn't count any of his sets though he ***** falco too and has only lost to zhu and pp once. Besides mango of course.

and chops can be really good it just seems like there is a wide gap between his worst play and best play. He's beaten eggm, jman, hax and others multiple times.

 

[Niko45]

I think chops is particularly bad against Marth. Full hop high-low lasers on YS? Yea, idk what that's about.

@Sage - I think Marth's metagame overall is pretty underdeveloped but not in the spacies matchups. M2K put us way ahead in that regard. I do agree there may be more room for improvement against Falco, though.

 

[JPOBS]

IB and Diakonos have beat great falcos like shiz, chops, blunted object, sion, etc. And m2k has also beat them all at some some point.

Its not like falco's straight dominate marths idk what you guys are smoking.

But i wil lsay this, marth's like to cry cuz they can't DD, I agree with what PP was saying earlier about how the anti-falco metagame sucks right now.

marths don't powershield, they don't fair immediately after being laser'd and othe rthings, and they still do fine because marth has amazing combos and gimps.

yall trippin.

 

[Druggedfox]

Chops has never placed well at anything meaningful:

Genesis:
Defeated Sa2jeff
Defeated D4DY
Defeated FalseFalco
Lost to Scar
Defeated blunted_object10
Defeated Jman
Lost to dark rain

Overall placing: 9/126


Apex:

Defeated Eggz
Lost to Mew2King
Defeated Tag$
Defeated Cactuar
Lost to I.B.

Overall placing: 17/48

Revival of Melee 3:

Defeated Stric9
Lost to Mew2King
Defeated Scar
Defeated Teczero
Defeated Chillin
Lost to Mango

Overall placing: 13/48

Okay, he's not zhu/PP/shiz... I still wouldn't call that mediocre.

While he lost to scar and darkrain at genesis, he defeated JMAN. While losing to M2K and IB at apex, he defeated eggz and cactuar. While losing to Mew2King and Mango, he defeated Scar, Tec0, and chillin...

Man, that guy sucks so bad. I mean, placing top 20, top 15, and top 10 at nationals is pretty mediocre. Honestly, any falco player bar PP would NOT have done better than he did at rom3, given his bracket.

 

[Niko45]

marths don't powershield, they don't fair immediately after being laser'd and othe rthings

Huh? We don't?

As far as having your DD taken away I think a big thing that lasers can do (but don't automatically do) is that they take away some of Marth's control of his "macro spacing" in the sense that his approaches and defenses aren't able to be as freely measured as they are against Fox. Marth is pretty quick and ranged as well so he doesn't have a problem at all handling Fox's mobility imo, but the fact that against Falco, Marth can be caught at times in "inbetween" spacings that he can't immediately correct because lasers make that much more difficult (and with proper frame advantage impossible).

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I think people just hate cuz he has some pretty bad losses but yea he's still top 5 falcos easy.