shut up fox is ****ing free
For you
Who has an easier time doing that though? I'd definitely say fox has significantly more ways to start up the stuff that gets him to a winning position.
Fox's OoS game is pretty amazing, so he can stop a lot of falco's standard stuff. Falco's grab gets you stuff sometimes, but usually not an extended combo. Falco's laser grab is shieldgrabbable, or you can just shine OoS with relative safety.
Can you elaborate on this safe offense?
*Summon PP*
There's more you can do to stuff that, but people don't know.
TIME TO GET TO WORK
I think ultimately what Fox is doing to beat Falco is harder than what Falco is doing to beat Fox (Tech chasing vs DI reading).
Any mistake on the Fox's part during his punishes will cost him half his stock.
Meanwhile any mistake Falco makes punishing...shouldn't be made...it's easy and the other player has much less influence over the situation than in reverse while being tech chased.
Falco's edgeguard is more consistent and reliable imo. With a good read you might get a cheap shine with fox but other than that you need to ledgehop bair and stuff which takes time and setup which you don't have in every spot. Falco standing on stage and lasering and eventually punishing whatever pretty obvious/necessary recovery Fox needs to do in response is pretty solid.
Falco also has pretty solid defenses to Fox's combo starters (CCing, smash DI), where as Fox doesn't really have that or if he does it's much more situational to me at least.
Just feels like what Falco does to Fox provides better consistency than what Fox does to Falco.
Yeah it probably looks harder because Foxes make it harder than it needs to be.
Any mistake on Fox's part costs him half a stock, okay. Any mistake on Falco's part should be his ENTIRE stock anywhere on the stage. Maybe not always, but Falco will take a TON of damage at the least.
Falco's edgeguard is nowhere near as good as Fox's wtf. Fox is FAST. Falco is SLOW. Fox's recovery is BIG. Falco's is LITTLE. Falco gets some nice side B recoveries because of its gayness in the middle every so often, but overall things are much better for Fox. Falco gets to control Fox's height with lasers, but that's difficult because Fox can switch between side B and up-B as long as he keeps getting hit. He can also choose to drop instead of do one of those at any time, and if Falco ever double lasers then Twitch has started to take the first hit, drop a little, and side B under me as the second one is coming out and hitting me/being safe. Fox on the other hand can run everywhere and anywhere to hit Falco's recovery, including out at him, because it's not like Falco's up-B has protective flames or anything....
That next line doesn't say a lot. Fox can space Bairs and beat CC'ing. He can dash in and shine to beat CC'ing/SDI'ing. He can bait defensive attacks and punish with his **** speed.
Fox can shine OOS/Usmash OOS to beat shield pressure, Usmash OOS to beat spaced moves, and just WD OOS/jump OOS/take the hit to upsmash or something to deal with lasers. Also Fox Upsmash trades with Falco Nair, so if you CC the Nair then you get a freeeee comboooo
Feels to me like Fox's don't do their jobs well enough.
falco ***** fox. proof: history.
falco players QQing over fox pisses me off to no end. You should be begging to fight fox every round at every tournament, and fox players never want to play falco.
**** HISTORY.
No QQ'ing here but I'll be darned if I enjoy missing a tough tech chase in a high speed combo and then I get Uthrow reaction tech chase to anything I can do.
Fox players need to step it up then.
jman dominated zhu sunday at DGDTJ. 3-0
this is a fox that knows the falco matchup VERY well.
it's hard for all of us to judge this matchup without bias, because at lower levels its just flat out easier for falco imo. and then people say crap like oh well it's harder for fox to be more precise and get the combos blah blah, but thats what top level is. precise, not messing up very often. i think it's silly as **** to say it's clearly falcos favor.
Zhu hasn't been playing this game....and neither has Jman.....soooo I don't care much about that set to be honest.
Jman hasn't been keeping up with metagame because he hasn't been playing.
Ugh why is lower level being used here.
Well, no.
Tech chasing has inherently much smaller margin for error than guaranteed follow -> guaranteed follow -> guaranteed follow.
It's also very situational, because often there will happen to be an option that can't be covered based on timing and positioning and if the falco happens to choose that then he escapes. The same doesn't apply when fox gets shined.
Plus top players are human and still make TONS of mistakes. Nobody is even close to playing this game perfectly yet...
And once they do, every matchup will be even right? Cause everything's being done perfectly so nothing is harder than anything else.
Edit: I will say for Fox, though, that while his follow ups are more difficult and there is more Falco can do to help himself than Fox can do to help himself in Falco combos, there may be a bit more upside to Fox's combos. Falco combos seem pretty solid and consistent, but rarely is it like full stock ****. If Fox manages to get some good momentum going the potential for a heavier punish than Falco is capable of is there imo.
Fox's need to show you guys how to tech chase better then. They only have to get like 1...maaaybe 2 good guesses/reads that are relatively easy to hit and peace out Falco.
How about when Fox is past 40% when he's getting comboed/shined?
I'm counting mistakes in my estimation of the matchup.
Lol dawg Fox is the best, tied with Bowser at perfect play. That ain't what this is about though.
They take a couple more reads sometimes, but they're not really any harder.
How is the history skewed in favor of Falco as much as you guys are implying?
Jman/Lucky have traded sets with PP at the majors in the past year or so
Lucky vs. Zhu has gone back and forth, Jman vs. Lambchops also.
guaranteed follow -> guaranteed follow -> guaranteed follow only works for 40% or so. After that Falco has to get a read on techs or trick the Fox's DI somehow. It happens regularly enough, but Falco's guaranteed combos don't really come close to taking Fox's stock.
Fox gets a chance at punishment off pretty much any hit or knockdown though. Even if he can't follow it up directly, it'll put Falco in a disadvantaged position where it's more likely Fox can keep the pressure going and eventually get a hit.
It's harder for Falco to land a combo starting hit, since doing an aerial with the intent of linking it to shine is a pretty big commitment for Falco compared to the things he can do with lower risk.
This pretty much never happens. Often Fox can't cover every option on reaction, but it's very rare that there's an option that Fox simply can't reach in time. Fox's run speed is a lot faster than tech roll speed...
K this is cool.
yea, falco ***** everyone at low-mid level
lol
