You are very wrong. If you look at the mlg vegas finals from 06 you see that PC had to go fox to keep up with DJ. I think I'd know considering how much I played with the man back then. PC played a lot based on how he felt at any given time. He had an excellent line up of characters but he always played fox.
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
marth really isnt as hard a match up as the others, lol.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
What beats Fox's nair?
For some reason, I keep trying to jab it and that doesn't work.
If jab doesn't work... WHAT DOES?
For some reason, I keep trying to jab it and that doesn't work.
If jab doesn't work... WHAT DOES?
Shooting it, CC shining it(the big one under 40%), Utilting it(sometimes trades), Bair'ing it, Nair'ing over it(as he's coming in from a SH anyway), and sometimes you can't do any of that stuff and you have to get out of the way and punish them as they try to follow up/retreat.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
PP did a LOT of the running away --> punish against jman, especially on FD. It looked sooooo smooth >_<
Yeah I did the gayness
Confident Falco vs Fox is nice.
Confident Falco vs Fox is nice.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
My problem is I keep freezing up after I tech Fox's up throw. I tech it, and when he's running after to follow up, I'm fine when I expect a grab, but when he goes for the SH nair, I usually end up eating that + a shine + whatever **** after that. I don't have enough time or space to get a laser out, and often it'll be too tight to get an up tilt or bair in. I don't like being forced into my shield too much, but that's not a bad idea.
I'll mess around with my options more, definitely going for CC shine more often. Not sure why that slips my mind.
I'll mess around with my options more, definitely going for CC shine more often. Not sure why that slips my mind.
Yeah, that's a terrible position to be in as Falco. Against Fox it's really bad because that character is so fast that it doesn't matter if you predict him or try to be as safe as possible since he's just silly.
Basically you have to mix things up as best as you can. Foxes like to go for the quick grab so shine is usually your best bet(player/circumstance dependent!). You can waveshine so that if it doesn't hit them then you'll be moving away in case they tried to bait a shield or attack. And if the shine beats the grab then they won't be DI'ing so you could still combo.
Shielding with Falco usually sucks lol, unless you're doing it to screw with people's timings/reactions.
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
could have sworn i saw it said itt that marth > falco at lower levels. or at least that the matchup is a lot harder for falco, which isn't that much different imo, but i have seen that distinction drawn
edit: but i don't really agree regarding fox mainly b/c low-mid level falcos get grabbed a lot and i think mediocre foxes can execute chaingrabs and what not more effectively than mediocre falcos can combo
2: also, at the low levels it's very easy to get flustered by fox's speed
I think falcos laser and pressure game overwhelms people at the lower level even when the falcos just know how to spam laser or do laser -> aerial approach blindly. Most new players have alot of trouble with this.
The higher you go up, players start learning how to punish approaches much easier, and how to stay mobile after sheilding/taking a laser so than at mid and a little bit higher falco starts to get *****. And the falco player realizes that laser aren't end all be all or this holy projectile that ***** everyone.
But then when falco learns not to be so reckless and mindlessly approach and bait people for what they do to shut down his offense that's when falco gradually starts doing better again. Nowhere as good as he did vs noobs though. I think alot of match ups end up being even at high level, for falco at least.
atleast, thats how i see it
The higher you go up, players start learning how to punish approaches much easier, and how to stay mobile after sheilding/taking a laser so than at mid and a little bit higher falco starts to get *****. And the falco player realizes that laser aren't end all be all or this holy projectile that ***** everyone.
But then when falco learns not to be so reckless and mindlessly approach and bait people for what they do to shut down his offense that's when falco gradually starts doing better again. Nowhere as good as he did vs noobs though. I think alot of match ups end up being even at high level, for falco at least.
atleast, thats how i see it
JPOBS
Smash Hero
i think almost his entire top tier matchup list is deadeven with the exception of being > falcon.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
falcons a low tier.
top tier is fox/falco/puff
top tier is fox/falco/puff
cjugs
Smash Ace
Shine in the air against fast fallers above about 60 % when they can start to tech the dair.
meatpopsicle
Smash Apprentice
Hey Dr. PeePee I noticed some your CP choices during RoM3 GFs run counter to your suggestions of CP stages vs. Marth in the OP. Maybe I'm getting things confused, but I'm assuming Mew2king banned PS. You seemed to do really well on DL 64, and I'm curious as to whether your thoughts about it as a viable stage vs Marth and as a good stage for Falco in general have changed since the OP.
Also, my Falco tends to get ***** by Fox. Could you briefly explain how to deal with getting pressured by Fox nairs and shines, and what to do (like how to DI) once I get hit? How to deal with shield pressure? And what to do when a shine throws me offstage? How to space? If you could answer any of these questions, however generally or situationally you can, that would be extremely helpful.
Thanks by the way for the extremely useful advice. Learning how to handle specific situations is good for conditioning yourself to make the best decisions at the right times, but as a pretty mediocre player what I find most useful is the mindset to take away from effectively responding to and handling any given situation. From reading in between the lines in some of your advice, it seems players must first learn to study an opponent's move choices, then learn how to most effectively react to those move choices, and finally adapt to changes in the opponent's strategy.
Sorry in advance if I'm asking questions that have already been answered.
Also, my Falco tends to get ***** by Fox. Could you briefly explain how to deal with getting pressured by Fox nairs and shines, and what to do (like how to DI) once I get hit? How to deal with shield pressure? And what to do when a shine throws me offstage? How to space? If you could answer any of these questions, however generally or situationally you can, that would be extremely helpful.
Thanks by the way for the extremely useful advice. Learning how to handle specific situations is good for conditioning yourself to make the best decisions at the right times, but as a pretty mediocre player what I find most useful is the mindset to take away from effectively responding to and handling any given situation. From reading in between the lines in some of your advice, it seems players must first learn to study an opponent's move choices, then learn how to most effectively react to those move choices, and finally adapt to changes in the opponent's strategy.
Sorry in advance if I'm asking questions that have already been answered.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
I can answer a few of these for PP.
DL64 is Marth's worst neutral and Falco's best. Marth cannot fsmash underneath platforms, and his utilt/uair cover far less of the platform than other stages. the larger stage gives falco more breathing room, and subsequently makes it more difficult for marth to get in on you. marth gets a pseudo chain grab, so be careful about center stage.
Vs fox's shield pressure, you need to learn what you can do when. vs high nairs, you can do anything you want, but vs delayed aerials, you just have to wait it out, roll away, or hold down and mash L+A or B if you're at low percentage.
Vs badly spaced nair/bair at low percentage, always, always CC shine. If you can't, and aren't in the position to be knocked off stage, DI down and away (teching, if applicable) to make it more difficult for Fox to follow stuff up.
Vs well-spaced aerials you're just going to have to DI away. perfectly spaced nair and bair cannot be punished. fox is faster and hes just outside of the range for any of your quick moves.
DL64 is Marth's worst neutral and Falco's best. Marth cannot fsmash underneath platforms, and his utilt/uair cover far less of the platform than other stages. the larger stage gives falco more breathing room, and subsequently makes it more difficult for marth to get in on you. marth gets a pseudo chain grab, so be careful about center stage.
Vs fox's shield pressure, you need to learn what you can do when. vs high nairs, you can do anything you want, but vs delayed aerials, you just have to wait it out, roll away, or hold down and mash L+A or B if you're at low percentage.
Vs badly spaced nair/bair at low percentage, always, always CC shine. If you can't, and aren't in the position to be knocked off stage, DI down and away (teching, if applicable) to make it more difficult for Fox to follow stuff up.
Vs well-spaced aerials you're just going to have to DI away. perfectly spaced nair and bair cannot be punished. fox is faster and hes just outside of the range for any of your quick moves.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I think he's trying to figure the same thing out...
TheGoat
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2010
- Messages
- 584
I think falco has a slight advantage. Falcos combos on fox are much easier to perform, with him its chasing di and with fox its more chasing techrolls, which is more difficult. Fox relies on getting good tech reads and gimps. Simply not as reliable as falco's pure ****. And yeah it seems falcos matchups with the whole top tier are very near even.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Falco's combos are so much more difficult than tech chasing with fox.
:|
:|
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Continue to play the game until Falco's and Fox's combos are not that hard to do anymore.. there ya go.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
the thing about falco is that its not so much the falcos ability so much is it the fox's ability to AVOID the combos in the first place.
fox is gay and gets hard knockdown sooooo much easier than falco gets launchers.
fox is gay and gets hard knockdown sooooo much easier than falco gets launchers.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
how hard a combo is to do should almost not be mentioned when discussing "top level" of play.
low/mid levels of play shouldn't even be discussed, imo, because we should all be striving to be on that top level.
with that said, i suck at this game. i'm clearly playing at bottom level. lol so phuck it.
link beats falco at low levels of play. DISCUS.
low/mid levels of play shouldn't even be discussed, imo, because we should all be striving to be on that top level.
with that said, i suck at this game. i'm clearly playing at bottom level. lol so phuck it.
link beats falco at low levels of play. DISCUS.
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
what problems do you have w/link
cjugs
Smash Ace
He's annoying to shield pressure.... that's about it lol.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Thank you for that.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
how is link annoying to shield pressure?
i dont have ton of link experience, but from what i recall from playing a little of the matchup is that his shield is bad for him to be stuck in...
i dont have ton of link experience, but from what i recall from playing a little of the matchup is that his shield is bad for him to be stuck in...
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
seems like link has a pretty good shield and nice oos options to break shield pressure (up b, nair)
edit: or to escape it. link doesn't want to turtle up of course, but i don't think he needs to autoroll. so i'd say it's annoying b/c you have to be more cautious. however, i'll note that most of my link experience is getting anally ***** by german, so maybe it's not as troublesome as i think
edit: or to escape it. link doesn't want to turtle up of course, but i don't think he needs to autoroll. so i'd say it's annoying b/c you have to be more cautious. however, i'll note that most of my link experience is getting anally ***** by german, so maybe it's not as troublesome as i think
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
If you're having problems shield pressuring a Link you're doing it wrong. Link has virtually no options vs Falco. Up+b only works if you hit their shield 10000000 feet too high, and nair doesn't come out in time to beat anything, due to Link's jump being slow as molasses.
Link's roll is kinda mediocre, but it, and spot dodging are his only relatively safe options vs Falco.
To correctly pressure link, just do slightly delayed aerials to shine, then cover his roll. If you hit link, you hit him for another 60+% because Link sucks and Falco *****. Link can't really CC much of anything Falco does, and Falco can CC like EVERYTHING Link does, which makes things that more unfair.
Link's roll is kinda mediocre, but it, and spot dodging are his only relatively safe options vs Falco.
To correctly pressure link, just do slightly delayed aerials to shine, then cover his roll. If you hit link, you hit him for another 60+% because Link sucks and Falco *****. Link can't really CC much of anything Falco does, and Falco can CC like EVERYTHING Link does, which makes things that more unfair.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
i was COMPLETELY kidding about link. lmao.
i would play as falco vs my friends link when he taught me advanced techniques and i thought it was a hard mathcup because he was better than me.
i would play as falco vs my friends link when he taught me advanced techniques and i thought it was a hard mathcup because he was better than me.
Sage Osaka
Smash Ace
lmfao @ kenny posting link discussion and creating an epic boom of link matchup replies.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
lol you like how i was talking about you on the boards, huh keith?
Sage Osaka
Smash Ace
haha, coulda been jr >_>
KILLA.FOR.CASH.
Smash Champion
lol i dont think ive ever played keith with link. he'd prob tap my link anyways
choknater
Smash Obsessed
lookin like a modesto thread
Sage Osaka
Smash Ace
haha jr, at least not in the past like 3+ years anyways. but nah i was referring to how you might have played kenny before instead of my link, cause me and you are like the only people who have ever played link seriously around here, albeit like 4 years ago lol.
LumpyCPU...
Smash Hero
eat a dude's butt with a side of cottage cheese
KikoMePlease
Smash Journeyman
peepee what %s can marth fair you out of uthrow --> followup
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
DGDTJ friendlies: Rubyiris (Blue) vs Trahh (Default) Falco Dittos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRAkLYQ_ZbA
Figured I'd post these. Any advice? First game is kind of a bad example, though. I just choob it up and get *****. Any of the others I lose are fine.
Disclaimer: Spot dodges are failed shine OOS, and it takes me like 5 matches to properly edge guard quick phantasms.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRAkLYQ_ZbA
Figured I'd post these. Any advice? First game is kind of a bad example, though. I just choob it up and get *****. Any of the others I lose are fine.
Disclaimer: Spot dodges are failed shine OOS, and it takes me like 5 matches to properly edge guard quick phantasms.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
critique me too =)
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
for reference:
not counting game 1 I lose games 5, 6, 7
Trahhh loses games 2, 3, 4, 8
It's best to critique the games the player in question loses.
not counting game 1 I lose games 5, 6, 7
Trahhh loses games 2, 3, 4, 8
It's best to critique the games the player in question loses.