PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[leffen]

I dunno why you would even try to do a "double singles" strategy and assigning players to each others lol

I think that was the reason that you got so ***** by DoHs dsmash spam whenever it wasnt double singles (even though M2K+DoH honestly did a subpar job at forcing you into them, maybe im biased because of how much better UGS is at it though) and why you hit each others so much.


You need to exploit the fact that peach is slow, that sheik cannot start anything at lower % and that peach is bad around the top platforms (and the fact that she needs to set up her approaches, bait those and punish her when she thinks you are double teaming M2K).

Just categorizing it into "KK will handle M2K and maybe kill DoH if unknown is not able to kill DoH" is not the way to go imho.

Then again we focus much more about real time strategy thinking and adaption along with less double singles and less "picking a strategy and sticking with it" in europe (even though its a very legit strategy and most of our teams are bad at handling it) so take my advice with a bit of salt. We also play much more teams during smashfests /tournaments compared to the US where you would be 6 people at a TV playing singles (we refer to this as USASingles lol)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I was always under the impression fox and falco's DJ went the same height?

Random skimming to catch up (many pages behind)

This isn't true. They are close but IIRC fox's is ~13 (derpmeters i think magus calls them?) while falco's was ~14

 

[danieljosebatista]

Hey guys, this is a question for anyone who feels like answering. I've noticed that sometimes when playing against new players or players that are very bad, i often have a hard time reading them and reacting accordingly to their moves. I've talked with my brother who also agrees that bad players can be hard to read and fight properly simply because they are so erratic and unpredictable. I guess my question boils down to, why does this happen and what's the best way to fight these kinds of players?

 

[tarheeljks]

they can be more difficult to read b/c frequenting the boards or focusing on prevailing trends and what not can create the expectation that players will only use strategies/tactics that have been deemed optimal/viable by the competitive community. bad or unorthodox players exploit this behavior, possibly unknowingly, by naturally playing in a way that will fool you*-- esp if you are only imitating high level play. i'd argue that they-- that bad players at least-- are probably not as erratic or unpredictable as you think, rather their decision tree originates from a different point. if you project and assume they will perform action 1 b/c that's what a good player would do, then you may have difficulties when they frequently perform action 2 (or maybe 3 or 4). ultimately, you have to know what your opponent is capable of in order to make good reads.

edit: it could be that they are erratic in that they will do a few things with comparable frequency even though most of them are "bad" decisions, or it could be that they are doing the same thing often and you don't realize it b/c you are accustomed to a different play style. either way the problem stems from making assumptions about how they will play
*general you

 

[Bones0]

From what I can tell, it seems like the mini-goals bad players have at any given moment are completely different, and that's what throws them off. Them making "bad" techs or other "so obvious you didn't expect it" situations can definitely cause issues, but I think it's mostly their underlying principles about what to do from the base of their game play. For example, maybe you are recovering on to the stage and they are right next to you. Any good competitive player will simply hit you back off, but that is not how the bad player sees the situation. They may see it as "I will throw him back off when he lands." as a result, you may keep recovering and attempting to shield a move that never comes, and instead you repeatedly get grabbed when you would never expect it. People become so accustomed to dealing with guaranteed punishes that when their opponent doesn't abuse free stuff, they have no idea what to do and resort to instinctual responses such as hold shield, roll, sidestep, etc. So I would say it's less of deal that they have weird yomi choices, but moreso that they are using yomi options that are subpar, and thus unexpected.

As far as how to deal with bad players, I prefer to simply pick out their bad habits just like good players, but as a bad player you can usually count on them not being able to adapt, which means you can continually abuse the same response to baits over and over. Essentially play safer, and it expands how long scenarios last, greatly increasing the chance that they will do something stupid. As players get better, the scale tilts towards the person who acts first because waiting for your opponent to make a mistake becomes less and less reliable. A simple example is WD back. You can utterly destroy bad players with WD back punishes because they just can't anticipate it. When you play better players, WD back is far from a reliable counter measure to approaches and becomes much more conditional because they can not only anticipate it, but compensate for it.

 

[Winston]

Play safe, observe habits, and punish harder.

Usually if you are "good" and they are "bad" you will be much, much better at punishing and so you get a ridiculous advantage even if you don't really outplay them.

 

[Deleted member]

first thing vs new opponents is figure out if they are good or bad, then adjust accordingly

if opponents are bad, do your standard noob ****** tactics/combos that won't work on good opponents and NEVER EVER give bad d00ds the benefit of the doubt, just go with gut feeling

some common habits of crappier players:

extremely recurring tech patterns in certain spots
-keep a note if players completely refuse to change it up despite covering same option 1031083101 times or switch it up. most 'noobs' don't


roll/spotdodge like noob especially in unnecessary spots
- most 'noobs' i faced fall into one of the two when pressured and usually don't do the other. so obviously, don't cover roll option if they never roll

more likely to not tech especially after getting hit quick with a small tech window (pros tech almost all the time)

don't crouch cancel/ crouch cancel on accident because they are trying to shine
-huge advantage here if they don't CC
-not falco related, but falcon up-airing when opponent lands on plat is not nearly as good if they CC it, without CC they get popped up for free combos

inability to punish your obvious rolls/ jumps out of shields/ etc. hella abuse bad rolls if they can't punish them
-great vs 'good' people if they don't expect such bad rolls back and forth

==

personally, people who are in between good and bad are the trickiest

 

[Beat!]

If they're much worse than you, you don't even have to read them. Just outperform them by doing basic stuff. You are bettet at it than them.*

Granted, it's more fun to read the hell outta them. Just listen to the previous posters if you wanna do that





*if your playstyle is exclusively/almost exclusively based on reads then it's possible that you can't do this, but I don't know many players who are like that.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

personally, people who are in between good and bad are the trickiest

hope ur in my pool at apex...

 

[-ACE-]

hope ur in my pool at apex...

LOL.

I feel you Johnny. Although I don't consider myself high level, I'm about there when it comes to techchasing. I've often been like, wtf why am I covering an option that my opponent is completely unaware of? Giving too much credit lol. One thing I notice when using dthrow on spacies as Ganon, noobs will often techroll in the same direction as they di the throw, like if they di away they will also roll away every time. Same with behind.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I feel like I used to hear about Azen having a problem with noobs because he liked to read and manipulate people a ton.

But yeah there are lots of solid tactics to handle noobs. Usually I just need one big hole to exploit(like not handling a certain laser spacing or the way they move OOS is usually forced and predictable) if I can't just loltechskill all over them. The cool thing about skill gaps in this game is that you can usually abuse something like tech skill or speed or punishes much harder than the opponent because of your experience alone and come out perfectly comfortable in your wins.

 

[FoxLisk]

i try, deliberately, to not think about how to beat bad players and i just fundamentals/tech skill them to death. i will make reads on them because reading people is an important skill but I will not adjust my gameplay to accomodate what they're doing in any major way because I would much rather 2-stock someone I could easily 4-stock and then not have my gameplan thrown off for the next set than the other way around.

the exception is, of course, if I'm training with a friend. I have done things such as spend an entire set doing nothing but standing still and spot dodging my opponent's predictable grab approaches and then comboing him afterward to make the point that he was very predictable. (<3 you krnred225 if you namesearch)

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yo foxlisk, mm at apex?

 

[oliman]

depending on how nooby u guys r talkin about, you just dair them and expect them to get up attack a lot and roll a ton. every single noob in my area does that, its too easy now for me.

 

[Pi]

pressure usually ***** bad players since they don't like to bein their shield
so they'll either try to attack back, or when they have to shield they'll roll/spot dodge

if u just attack them and keep hitting them its a lot easier

 

[Jim Morrison]

I found dashdancing to be HORRIBLE against bad players. They just do stuff that goes right through. Oftentimes, stuff like that, which you use in higher level play, doesn't work on noobs, somehow.

Then again I'm a bad player as well.

 

[Divinokage]

yo foxlisk, mm at apex?

MM my Falco? =P

 

[Warhawk]

MM my Falco? =P

Nah you should go Falcon again, I thought your Falcon was really entertaining the one video of it I found.

 

[Battlecow]

I think that was the reason that you got so ***** by DoHs dsmash spam whenever it wasnt double singles (even though M2K+DoH honestly did a subpar job at forcing you into them, maybe im biased because of how much better UGS is at it though) and why you hit each others so much.

m2k + DoH would **** UGS

just sayin'

 

[JPOBS]

money on UGS.

 

[Battlecow]

psh

they get like 3rd-5th at US nationals, which is good, but M2K's teams never lose unless it's to like mango/lucky

So yeah, if those two teams ever play (unlikely) I've got money on M2D'OK, easy

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco is incredibly good at senselessly ****** noobs. His normal gameplay allows him a ton of opportunities to observe ways in which the opponent is stupid because he applies pressure from full-screen distance, which is dandy. As an added bonus, he's relatively safe in close quarters when he's dancing on someone's shield. So it's really easy to probe for bad habits. His massive combo damage against even a single bad DI input is also crazy good; the fact that his game is conducive for creating knockdowns and simple tech traps is also great because exploiting bad habits never stops being fun.

Sheik and Marth are also hella good at it because you can herp derp range fuck them to death with your gigantic peni sword and bodily appendages. Also, juggling!

.

 

[JPOBS]

psh

they get like 3rd-5th at US nationals, which is good, but M2K's teams never lose unless it's to like mango/lucky

So yeah, if those two teams ever play (unlikely) I've got money on M2D'OK, easy

Thats because m2k also usually teams with people in a skill tier closer to his own like with Jman, Armada that one time, PP that other time, etc. I've got nothing against D'oh, but to say that a m2k/Doh team would beat a consistent top 3 team like UGS just because one half of said team happened to be m2k, I don't buy it at all.

By your logic, would you bet on M2k and Doh getting 2nd at Apex? Possibly only losing to mang/lucky?

I would entirely disagree. I don't think m2k/doh would come close to sniffing top 2 at apex.

 

[Rubyiris]

I'm surprised whenever M2Kxinsert player ever loses.

 

[Divinokage]

Nah you should go Falcon again, I thought your Falcon was really entertaining the one video of it I found.

Haha thanks, perhaps I will MM some people with Falcon then also. =)

psh

they get like 3rd-5th at US nationals, which is good, but M2K's teams never lose unless it's to like mango/lucky

So yeah, if those two teams ever play (unlikely) I've got money on M2D'OK, easy

Lol, Mango + G$ gave me and M2k a whole lot of trouble. It was the 2nd time in my life that I was in a set where I had to play 10 games in a GF, it's pretty brutal mentally. lol. But I mean I do not think M2k + anything can win at all, sorry but I think UGS would annihilate them.

 

[Bones0]

I want to see a good teams bracket at this tourney. Preferably some variation of Mango/Lucky vs. PP/Yayuz? vs. Armada/Aniolas vs. Mew2King/???. Genesis was so disappointing cause of all the splitting.

 

[Strong Badam]

m2k is teaming with vidjogamer at apex last i heard

 

[Mew2King]

the problem is mango ***** me

 

[Bones0]

M2K, do you have a recently acquired Peach fetish? Is Peach the new Jiggs/Falco? lol

 

[Mew2King]

i have experience teaming with peach. Any character/teammate that can approach I do the best with.

I don't see how peach is similar to jiggs/falco in any way. jiggs/falco are my weakest 2 MUs but as far as Peach goes i simply like teaming with her.

 

[Battlecow]

Thats because m2k also usually teams with people in a skill tier closer to his own like with Jman, Armada that one time, PP that other time, etc. I've got nothing against D'oh, but to say that a m2k/Doh team would beat a consistent top 3 team like UGS just because one half of said team happened to be m2k, I don't buy it at all.

By your logic, would you bet on M2k and Doh getting 2nd at Apex? Possibly only losing to mang/lucky?

I would entirely disagree. I don't think m2k/doh would come close to sniffing top 2 at apex.

If UGS was a "consistent top 3 team" like you say, you'd be right

They're not; they've gotten 3rd ONCE. They top out at 3rd; their average is around 5th. And yeah, I'm pretty sure m2k/DoH would get top 5.

UGS loses to like SFAT/PPU nowadays. like I said, good team, but m2k/DoH just made KK and Unknown (a very good team themselves) look pretty free. m2k is hella good when with a peach, and DoH is a great player as well...

@kage do you really consider yourself that much better than DoH? you and M2K WON RoM, and he's defs better with peach on his team than with ganon.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I suck in teams lol

 

[-ACE-]

Wtf is an UGS

 

[Sinji]

I like teammates that approach as well. lol

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

loooooooool edit

armada+aniolas = ugs

 

[-ACE-]

I see. That would be a good 2v2 match to watch, can't really say that either team would tap.

 

[Divinokage]

Battlecow, of course, I beat him 3-4 times already in MM and in bracket. Also, I've done really well with other players not just M2k. I'm really good in teams depending how strong my partner is. =P

Edit: I'm not really someone that can carry especially with Ganon, I have to be a support role mainly/tank if I can. So I mean, yes I do need a strong partner to do well because I feed off their strength pretty much and I have no troubles to adapt to anyone, they just need to be strong.

 

[Wake]

If UGS was a "consistent top 3 team" like you say, you'd be right

They're not; they've gotten 3rd ONCE. They top out at 3rd; their average is around 5th. And yeah, I'm pretty sure m2k/DoH would get top 5.

UGS loses to like SFAT/PPU nowadays. like I said, good team, but m2k/DoH just made KK and Unknown (a very good team themselves) look pretty free. m2k is hella good when with a peach, and DoH is a great player as well...

@kage do you really consider yourself that much better than DoH? you and M2K WON RoM, and he's defs better with peach on his team than with ganon.

UGS usually loses to Haxbox, and Mango/Lucky... At Genesis 2 they lost to Haxbox twice, not sure where the SFAT/PPU thing is coming from. I would like to see that match though.

 

[unknown522]

look free? what set were you watching battlecow?

I hate when people misuse other fighting games' terms.

 

[Divinokage]

Ryan, no matter what you say usually people will look at your losses rather than who you beat.. perhaps because we are from Canada and they REALLY want to meatride their US players. I don't know how many times I've seen that but it's endless.