PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[noobird]

-.-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvKMEVu0mhU

wtf pro. 130 views. >.> soon to be over 9000

 

[EWC]

Hey so can anyone do shield drops consistently and quickly without having to "set up" by tilting forward first?

I can do but only by kinda going forward slowly and then doing the normal shai drop method, and that takes forever.

 

[unknown522]

^ no one that I know of.

I can't do it myself. The only time I can do it quickly is out of a dash, or DDing.

Well, maybe lovage can....

 

[Pi]

just buffer the 'set up' in shieldhitstun

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13682822#post13668963

info here Zzz

 

[EWC]

Actually yeah that is perfect. Okay so the next level is gonna be when people start sdiing when you hit their shield on a platform to space the shield drop better. Man I can't wait for 2015.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I fear that the new metagame will be too technical for me.

Ah, Peach.

 

[Winston]

Hey so can anyone do shield drops consistently and quickly without having to "set up" by tilting forward first?

I can do but only by kinda going forward slowly and then doing the normal shai drop method, and that takes forever.

How hard is this supposed to do? I can only do it like 50% the time I try, but I've only been trying for like a couple days. I just try and "picture" the speed in my head

I fear that the new metagame will be too technical for me.

Ah, Peach.

I doubt the metagame will ever be ruled by technical BS

 

[JPOBS]

I would hardly called shai droppin technical BS. ^

I deifnitely could see it becoming an absolute staple at higher levels and with certain chars.

Actually yeah that is perfect. Okay so the next level is gonna be when people start sdiing when you hit their shield on a platform to space the shield drop better. Man I can't wait for 2015.

Jeapie already does that into a shai dropped upair. check his newest set vs amsah.

dude is on some next level maneuvers.

 

[Summonedfist]

i always thought shield drop -> bair/nair/dair(if you're falco) would be the best way to escape being ***** from marth underneath you and counter attack at the same time... surprised it's hardly mainstream lol

couldn't find a vid with an example of it tho...

 

[Druggedfox]

Tilting forward?

???

I only press down when I shield drop.

 

[Winston]

I would hardly called shai droppin technical BS. ^

I deifnitely could see it becoming an absolute staple at higher levels and with certain chars.
Jeapie already does that into a shai dropped upair. check his newest set vs amsah.

dude is on some next level maneuvers.

Of course it's very useful.

So is invincible ledgedashing. And yet all of the top players in the world pretty much ignore it (or plays a character that can't do it.)

Now of course you might say that shield dropping doesn't carry the risk that invincible ledgedashing does, or isn't as difficult, etc. The rewards are comparable though; they are concrete and non-trivial.

Technical advancements can mitigated via non-technical means as long as you understand what they are trying to do. If they're shielding on a platform you don't have to hit their shield. You can space around their aerial if they're a space animal (not if they're Falcon/Ganon/whatever, of course). You can also bait shield dropped attacks; bones mentioned that his training partner (Marth) sometimes does late uair -> shieldgrab the shielddropped aerial, for example.

They still benefit significantly from forcing you to respect their shield, but it's not big enough to swing the entire match in their favor if you outclass them in the fundamentals.

Basically my point is, melee is never going to be professional to the level where the top players need to take advantage of every single possible thing to succeed.

The other thing that people don't talk about enough is the advantage you gain from using the "basic" tools better, rather than innovating new technology. Watching Mango always shows me options I've didn't considered, and he uses almost no technical tricks. He is incredibly good at wavedashing out of shield when on platforms to punish attacks. Often times is able punish retreating aerials and stuff better than a shield drop would have allowed him to, because he is decisive and fast. This sounds super basic, but I don't see anyone else do it like he does. Another example would be his shield pressure - forget double shine waveland, what about the thing where he does late aerials while doing aerial drift towards the center of their shield? I'm not positive, but I think he does it to reduce the window they are able to shield grab him before he does his aerial. And the thing where he wavelands in place at the edge of the side platforms on yoshi's/BF instead of wavelanding towards the center of the stage. etc.

Uhh this post has gotten long enough. abrupt conclusion!

edit: I mean eventually it'll become commonplace. What I mean though is in the next couple years I doubt it'll be an "absolute staple".

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Winston i think plenty of top players use invincible ledge dash. Ganon players abuse the **** out of it, and so do sheik players. I know mango uses the fox and falco version quite a bit, or at least something similar. Who, actually, doesn't use it?

 

[Wake]

I fear that the new metagame will be too technical for me.

Ah, Peach.

Honestly, I don't like this attitude much. If Peach players really want to keep up, they have to be technical and fast... Peach can do it. Peach can be fast (at least as far as throwing moves out is concerned), and you can be a technical Peach player. It's not like spacies have some kind of monopoly on being as fast as your character allows for.

It kinda just feeds into the dumb "all peahc haz to du is dmash lulz so ez" mentality, which just isn't true. She has so much potential if you can push her to the limits.

 

[Pi]

last time i'm going to pitch my videos

demonstration vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dan1Kplweo8
instruction vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvKMEVu0mhU

this way is excruciatingly easy, can be mastered, mastered, mastered, mastered, mastered in like...an hour...if ur a goldfish....or some ****

if you can afford to be angling ur shield horizontally when u take the next hit, you should be, if for no other reason than to set up for the possibility for dropping, once you figure out the position that your controller drops from, you should not mess this up, ever, u idiots

ALTERNATIVELY, if you want to start putting work into setting up for the shield drop during shieldhitstun, i think it's entirely possible, especially if the hit ur about to take is predictable

this technique is....the most, and i say this with 100% certainty, the MOST, underlooked, under developed, easiest, effective, multi faceted, etc. ****ing technique in todays metagame

link me any video and i can point out multiple situations in which it would be effective, though not say with certainty that having angled the shield would not have resulted in a poke

alternatively, light shielding is something that needs to be explored more in conjunction with this technique.

also, don't look at this technique just in that 'oh so when someone hits my shield, i can punish with a shield drop' because in the current meta there are so many more applications....

and since i like frame data, here is some useful information surrounding the setup/execution
[collapse=info]
pressing shield on the 4th frame will result in the shield coming out on frame 5

cannot input dash the opposite way until frame 4 of your initial dash (wont' dash if inputted sooner)

cannot turn sooner than frame 5

turn lasts for 1 frame before dashing in opposite direction

the smoke of the dash comes out on frame 4

cannot shield during turn animation, can buffer it during turn animation

if you shield and hold a direction on the dash frame directly after the turn frame, or if you inputted and held them durning the turn frame, you will buffer a roll

you must wait for 1 dash frame to pass before you can input your shield & direction

rolls buffer for 3 frames from when you input the direction

this applies to your initial dash.

subsequent dashes, IE dash dancing, or pivoting require you to be dashing for 1 frame before shielding, otherwise a roll will be buffered if you continue to hold the direction

you can however, input a direction, then shield on the next frame if you have allowed the control stick to reset to neutral

spot dodges also buffer for 3 frames

you cannot shield drop sooner than the 5th frame of any given dash, initial or subsequent

inputting shield before frame 4 will result in a roll or a spot dodge
inputting the shield drop on frame 4, frame 5 will be wait, and frame 6 will be 'pass', you're free to do whatever after this

cannot shield drop out of shieldhitstun, or hitlag

must pass through the threshold for shield dropping coming from above
this means no going from angled shield down into shield drop

can input shield drop, just the diagnal input, no more than 5 frames before you're out of shieldhitstun, can be inputted in shieldhitlag, and shieldhitstun

if you input sooner than 5 frames before you're out of hitstun, nothing will happen

buffering rolls/spot dodges applies, so there is only a 2 frame window to 'buffer' a shield drop in this fashion

if you are not angling your shield horizontally, you can re-adjust to the horizontal position to start your shield drop, as long as you do so 3 frames before shieldhitstun ends

so for example, if mario fsmashes your shield, you go through 9 frames of shieldhitlag, then 10 frames of shieldhitstun. So 19 frames total of being stuck in your shield

if you were in neutral position, you need to press right or left before frame 16, otherwise it will buffer a roll,

if you want to buffer the shield drop, you'll have to have your control stick positioned horizontally by frame 14-16, then on frame 15 you have it in the shield drop angle, that will buffer, and is the soonest you could start buffering

someone else can double check all this and correct me but this all i got so hf[/collapse]

 

[Blistering Speed]

Winston i think plenty of top players use invincible ledge dash. Ganon players abuse the **** out of it, and so do sheik players. I know mango uses the fox and falco version quite a bit, or at least something similar. Who, actually, doesn't use it?

It's not used all that often. Especially by Fox players. Fox's ledge dash burns down houses and tortures children.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Honestly, I don't like this attitude much. If Peach players really want to keep up, they have to be technical and fast... Peach can do it. Peach can be fast (at least as far as throwing moves out is concerned), and you can be a technical Peach player. It's not like spacies have some kind of monopoly on being as fast as your character allows for.

It kinda just feeds into the dumb "all peahc haz to du is dmash lulz so ez" mentality, which just isn't true. She has so much potential if you can push her to the limits.

I'm not saying she isn't technical. She just doesn't multishine.

But seriously, I understand that point, and I agree. I'm certainly not saying that we only need one move. That would be stupid. I am saying that, at the highest point of human capability, our tech skill ceiling is still a good deal lower than Falco's.

I've seen your Peach, Wake. I know you appreciate her fast, technical ability. And so do I. She...just isn't a spacie, is all.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It's not used all that often. Especially by Fox players. Fox's ledge dash burns down houses and tortures children.

Are you sure? I mean, i know i use it all the time. Again, who doesn't use it?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i attempt to use it more than any other ledge recovery

 

[Bones0]

Are you sure? I mean, i know i use it all the time. Again, who doesn't use it?

Lovag e

 

[Deleted member]

i don't ledge dash. i dislike putting my hurtbox into the opponent from a disadvantageous position predictably. once your opponent is used to it, the invincibility matters surprisingly little.

there are better options anyway.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

like what?

 

[Beat!]

once your opponent is used to it, the invincibility matters surprisingly little.

Could you elaborate on this? I mean, I understand that it's not the same complete **** against someone who's used to it, but "surprisingly little"?

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. If you can do it right, you get off the ledge and can either attack them or begin spacing because they are too far away. You only GAIN positional advantage with it. If they react to it and punish you, it's because you didn't use your invincibility well. I'm not saying it's the best option every time, just that it has a very high minimum payoff. Some things are high risk high reward or whatever, but ledge dashing is always low risk (assuming you can do it right) and the reward is, like I said, dependent on what you choose to do with your invincibility, not with the ledge dash itself.

 

[JPOBS]

i don't ledge dash. i dislike putting my hurtbox into the opponent from a disadvantageous position predictably. once your opponent is used to it, the invincibility matters surprisingly little.

there are better options anyway.

Well your hurtbox may be into the opponent, but its also invincible so i don't see the problem. And the best thing about ledgedash isn't the ledgedash itself. Its that once you've shown they opponent that they need to respect your ability to do it, it opens up your other off ledge options to be way more feasible because they are now worried about your perfect invincible ledgedash skillz.

Can you elaborate on which options are objectively better than ledgedash?

So is invincible ledgedashing. And yet all of the top players in the world pretty much ignore it (or plays a character that can't do it.)

What?

All the sheiks do it. All the ganons do it. All the canada fox's do it. The IC players use it. I don't follow the other regions as closely so I can't comment on the breadth of its use among them but Lovage/SW/Eggz/Axe use it explicitly and I'm sure others use it that I don't see.

Like you said, marth/falcon/peach etc don't have an incincible wavedash per se, but even those characters do it a lot (falcons like to do it into buffer rolls).

I think you're severely underestimating its popularity.

Now of course you might say that shield dropping doesn't carry the risk that invincible ledgedashing does, or isn't as difficult, etc. The rewards are comparable though; they are concrete and non-trivial.

Exactly. It is not that hard and its rewards are great. The only difference is that its probably the newest form of technical play and it just hasn't caught on yet. I see no real reason why it won't though.

Technical advancements can mitigated via non-technical means as long as you understand what they are trying to do. If they're shielding on a platform you don't have to hit their shield. You can space around their aerial if they're a space animal (not if they're Falcon/Ganon/whatever, of course). You can also bait shield dropped attacks; bones mentioned that his training partner (Marth) sometimes does late uair -> shieldgrab the shielddropped aerial, for example.

Tru, but this can be said about absolutely anything.
What's the point of learning new laser variants like isai drop laser, DJ double lasers or ledge double lasers if the opponent can just adjust their spacing to account for everything?

Maybe that wasn't the best example but my point is that yea, the basics can be used to "mitigate" the effects of shai dropping, but you're forgetting 2 important aspects:
1. you don't have to shai drop. If the opponent is using basic strategies like spacing around you to bait it or whatever, you could just not do it.
2. More importantly, its not the fact that you can shai drop that makes this technique a charm, its the fact the opponent now has to account for it. So yea, they don't have to hit your shield or the can try to bat you, but in doing that, they give you the chance to escape in more conventional waysbecause they are accounting for the shai drop. This turns what is usually a free situation for the opponent and almost lose-lose for the shielder into another RPS which you could win. The situation goes from
"oh they shielding on a platform? time to go to town on them with upairs/uptilts/etc" to
"ok i cant just hit his shield cuz he might **** me so i have to space around him" and then they do something completely different.
thats MUCH better than just getting pressured for free.

Basically my point is, melee is never going to be professional to the level where the top players need to take advantage of every single possible thing to succeed.

Ok sure, but why not just take advantage of shai dropping anyway?

Its not as though learning shai dropping means you have to get rid of another facet of your game to make room for it. Shai dropping is easy enough, with big enough rewards and miniscule risks that I don't see any reason for it to NOT become standard very soon.

 

[crush]

is shine turn around bair good from the ledge against any characters?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Of course it's very useful.

So is invincible ledgedashing. And yet all of the top players in the world pretty much ignore it (or plays a character that can't do it.)

Now of course you might say that shield dropping doesn't carry the risk that invincible ledgedashing does, or isn't as difficult, etc. The rewards are comparable though; they are concrete and non-trivial.

Technical advancements can mitigated via non-technical means as long as you understand what they are trying to do. If they're shielding on a platform you don't have to hit their shield. You can space around their aerial if they're a space animal (not if they're Falcon/Ganon/whatever, of course). You can also bait shield dropped attacks; bones mentioned that his training partner (Marth) sometimes does late uair -> shieldgrab the shielddropped aerial, for example.

They still benefit significantly from forcing you to respect their shield, but it's not big enough to swing the entire match in their favor if you outclass them in the fundamentals.

Basically my point is, melee is never going to be professional to the level where the top players need to take advantage of every single possible thing to succeed.

The other thing that people don't talk about enough is the advantage you gain from using the "basic" tools better, rather than innovating new technology. Watching Mango always shows me options I've didn't considered, and he uses almost no technical tricks. He is incredibly good at wavedashing out of shield when on platforms to punish attacks. Often times is able punish retreating aerials and stuff better than a shield drop would have allowed him to, because he is decisive and fast. This sounds super basic, but I don't see anyone else do it like he does. Another example would be his shield pressure - forget double shine waveland, what about the thing where he does late aerials while doing aerial drift towards the center of their shield? I'm not positive, but I think he does it to reduce the window they are able to shield grab him before he does his aerial. And the thing where he wavelands in place at the edge of the side platforms on yoshi's/BF instead of wavelanding towards the center of the stage. etc.

Uhh this post has gotten long enough. abrupt conclusion!

edit: I mean eventually it'll become commonplace. What I mean though is in the next couple years I doubt it'll be an "absolute staple".

I've worked on ledgedashing a lot lately and started doing it in tournament at least at RoM3 =(

And yes technical abilities can be beaten by possessing a more solid foundation, but why would you deprive yourself of those extra options? I'll never advocate learning shield dropping over learning spacing or anything, but having EVERY advantage possible and available to you and your character is the most surefire way to win any game. Not taking advantage of any leverage you can gain on your opponent can mean the difference between a hit or having to wait for another exchange. Shield dropping could net me a death combo against Mango(which is a stock which is a lead which is psychologically good for me and bad for him etc etc) but I may have to wait for another hit if I cannot shield drop and instead reset the situation to neutral or even get hit instead.

I don't think anyone is saying there should be a greater emphasis on technical things over fundamentals, but with how technical the metagame(especially for spacies) has become lately we cannot ignore all of the advantages this world of tech skill offers. I personally aim to continually advance my fundamental game while building advanced techniques upon it to give myself every edge in competition.

I think I'll let you clarify exactly how you wanted your post to be interpreted before continuing haha.

i don't ledge dash. i dislike putting my hurtbox into the opponent from a disadvantageous position predictably. once your opponent is used to it, the invincibility matters surprisingly little.

there are better options anyway.

Well ledge dash lengths can vary, and invincibility is quite nice as well as retaining some stage as opposed to having no stage. I agree it's bad if your opponent begins to expect it but there are always other options(the standard getups come to mind immediately) to keep them uncertain about when exactly a ledge dash is coming.


@Crush: not usually but maybe like Puff or a spacie just because they have a little less range than some of the other high-end characters.

 

[Bing]

this is a simple question, but for grabbing the ledge to guard, I've been going back and forth between simply running towards the ledge,pivot, wave dash onto ledge and running off the ledge and immediatly side-B to grab the ledge. Which is better(obviously if Im right next to the ledge I just pivot WD, Im refering to when Im in the center of the stage.)

 

[Beat!]

I agree it's bad if your opponent begins to expect it

Why? I could see it being not-good/awesome, but how is it bad? I mean, you're invincible, and you're on stage with your feet on the ground.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

And yet all of the top players in the world pretty much ignore it

unbelievably untrue. i think this may be like this in your eyes, if you aren't looking for it. I see pros do this alll the time, i would assume this is the most reliable recovery out of any assuming you aren't being predictable with it.

beat i could agree that it's much less valuable if they are expecting it, but i would see people finding it harder to react to that over something like a forward-b into middle stage.

if they are expecting you to waveland right into the stage, they can easily bait you i would think..i mean if they give you a little room to come up and don't challenge your invincibility, then at best your still stuck in the corner until you find a way out..where as something like forward-b onto the stage provides more stage control reward? maybe i'm wrong.

 

[FoxLisk]

this is a simple question, but for grabbing the ledge to guard, I've been going back and forth between simply running towards the ledge,pivot, wave dash onto ledge and running off the ledge and immediatly side-B to grab the ledge. Which is better(obviously if Im right next to the ledge I just pivot WD, Im refering to when Im in the center of the stage.)

run off side-B is a terrible option, you should not use it. run -> wd forward -> turnaround -> wd back grab ledge is fine, run -> wd forward -> walk -> PC edgehog is good, run -> shine turnaround -> wd back grab is good, most of the time even just run -> shine turnaround -> sh and grab ledge is totally sufficient. run off - > shine turnaround -> up-b is also sometimes okay. if you have time and you're feeling fancy you can do run -> reverse laser edgecancel -> grab, that's cute but easy to mess up.

Side-B is ******** because if your opponent happens to get there first you just absolutely die 100% of the time, in addition to being slow. I lost a tournament set by doing this long, long ago and swore never to do it again because it sucks.

edit: also, in general, just as a note, if there's a chance you wont make it to the edge before your opponent, usually just dont go to the edge at all; stay on stage and do something low risk like ftilt at the edge in case it will hit and then retain position.

 

[stopNstart]

What do you do against falcons or foxes who like to full hop/dj a lot?

 

[JPOBS]

^ uptilt and bair them to tears.

 

[Wake]

I'm not saying she isn't technical. She just doesn't multishine.

But seriously, I understand that point, and I agree. I'm certainly not saying that we only need one move. That would be stupid. I am saying that, at the highest point of human capability, our tech skill ceiling is still a good deal lower than Falco's.

I've seen your Peach, Wake. I know you appreciate her fast, technical ability. And so do I. She...just isn't a spacie, is all.

She has a loong ways to go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKEoMrT9T3A

 

[ShroudedOne]

...oh.

Okay, you're right. She does.

 

[EWC]

How hard is this supposed to do? I can only do it like 50% the time I try, but I've only been trying for like a couple days. I just try and "picture" the speed in my head

I can do it like 70% of the time but the other 30% I spotdodge, which is unacceptable. Closing the gap from "I can do it" to "I can do it consistently" has been way harder than I expected.

 

[Winston]

I've worked on ledgedashing a lot lately and started doing it in tournament at least at RoM3 =(

I've only seen your sets vs. M2K and Mango and I don't remember seeing it a whole lot there. I've seen you do it so I know you can, it just doesn't seem like something you trust enough to use in high-stakes situations at the moment.

I didn't mean to offend, sorry. "Ignore" probably wasn't the right word, but I do feel strongly that it's very underused by you (and other high level players) relative to the benefits it offers.

And yes technical abilities can be beaten by possessing a more solid foundation, but why would you deprive yourself of those extra options? I'll never advocate learning shield dropping over learning spacing or anything, but having EVERY advantage possible and available to you and your character is the most surefire way to win any game.

This is absolutely correct and is why my post is kinda full of **** on a theoretical level.

I kind of just felt like talking about what I feel is an inverse correlation between focus on technological innovation and overall skill. But the message ended up being all wrong.

...My post really sucked. I might try to just start over and post it again, idk.

Not taking advantage of any leverage you can gain on your opponent can mean the difference between a hit or having to wait for another exchange. Shield dropping could net me a death combo against Mango(which is a stock which is a lead which is psychologically good for me and bad for him etc etc) but I may have to wait for another hit if I cannot shield drop and instead reset the situation to neutral or even get hit instead.

Yeah, I know it's extremely useful in the right situations, if your opponent doesn't respect it.

I don't think anyone is saying there should be a greater emphasis on technical things over fundamentals, but with how technical the metagame(especially for spacies) has become lately we cannot ignore all of the advantages this world of tech skill offers. I personally aim to continually advance my fundamental game while building advanced techniques upon it to give myself every edge in competition.

You're one of the people best positioned to make that kind of development, imo, since the rest of your game is so strong.

unbelievably untrue. i think this may be like this in your eyes, if you aren't looking for it. I see pros do this alll the time, i would assume this is the most reliable recovery out of any assuming you aren't being predictable with it.

I look for it... and they don't use it that much. Especially the top 10 or so players in the world.

if they are expecting you to waveland right into the stage, they can easily bait you i would think..i mean if they give you a little room to come up and don't challenge your invincibility, then at best your still stuck in the corner until you find a way out..where as something like forward-b onto the stage provides more stage control reward? maybe i'm wrong.

Everyone and their mother covers forward Bs into the stage precisely because the stage control reward is so big. Ledgedashing is severely underused proportional to how good it is and to how often people prepare against it. If you want me to go into more detail I can.

 

[tarheeljks]

i feel like i see ledge dashing used. i know falcons use it, i know good players around here use it. :shrug:

edit: selective memory too much of an issue here to rely on anecdotes from either side though

 

[Winston]

You're right. Shroomed and Axe are really good at it. Some Sheik players are good at it. Ganons are good at it.

I guess I should have said it's really underused by space animal players

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ledgehop sideb is just too appealing

 

[Doser]

Probably because they are thinking "we suicide enough as it is".