Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Falco can combo shiek? news to me.
I also apparently can't edgeguard worth beans.
I suck **** vs shiek.
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
I also apparently can't edgeguard worth beans.
I suck **** vs shiek.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
I agree with JPOBS for the most part. Sheik is a hard match up, but I don't think it's a losing one.
Marth, Fox, and the ditto are all more difficult and call for more experience, if you ask me.
Then again, I'm nobody.
Marth, Fox, and the ditto are all more difficult and call for more experience, if you ask me.
Then again, I'm nobody.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
shine-grab jigglypuff a lot
lol im serious
if she doesn't spot dodge rest you she cant do anything to punish you
lol im serious
if she doesn't spot dodge rest you she cant do anything to punish you
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
gah dang it zhu LOOOOL
well played sir
I'll respond to everyone tomorrow I really have stuff I need to be doing guh
well played sir
I'll respond to everyone tomorrow I really have stuff I need to be doing guh
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
When he gets the chance, I'd like to see a PP write up on the Falco ditto. The neutral game in that MU must be the weirdest one out of any MU in the game (I would think), and they probably need to be handled delicately. And I would like to see more focus on neutral game in general, to be honest.
But yeah, a Falco ditto writeup would be really nice and cool.
But yeah, a Falco ditto writeup would be really nice and cool.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
KSN was a Fox main, to my understanding. Or at least he was when he was still relevant. Sheik was just his secondary.
To the general populace:
Ledgedashing is quite possibly the most misunderstood ledge technique in the game. But I'm lazy so I don't feel like talking about it on the boards. If you want to know, ask PP or think about it for about twelve seconds and it'll make sense. Whatever you currently think about it, though, you should know that it's good but also a lot more situational than people think it is. Its merit has more to do with the options it denies the opponent, rather than the options it opens up for you. Although it does both. Actionable invincibility is too good!
Sheik is fine against Falco. Neither of them have to deviate from their "plan" in order to be successful in the matchup if they both understand it. Lately I think the usefulness of various commonplace techniques for both characters have shifted a lot, but it's not really all that different. Certain stuff is just more useful than it used to be, and other stuff has been nerfed because people have modified habits to accommodate it. So the algorithm has been rearranged a bit, but it's still the same thing at heart.
Shining before you ledgedash is a loss of at least 3 frames because the shine cancels on the 4th frame but my understanding is that said frame overlaps with the DJ. If I'm wrong then it's more (but 3 sounds correct in my head).
If you want to make your Falco combo Sheik to about 40%, use more up air and up tilt. Do not shine-land because it sucks against her. In general it doesn't really matter how much damage your combo does against her, though. Your goal is to either hold her above you in a crappy position where you can take advantage of her limited combo-break options to get a cheesy edgeguard setup or keep her there until one presents itself, or just push her offstage into an edgeguard from the get-go. If you can force Sheik to land with poof, you can exert all sorts of pressure on her and play some really silly games with her to do massive damage and maybe even score some dumb kills.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Lol, "poof."
I gigglesnorted at that. :3
I gigglesnorted at that. :3
G
genkaku
Guest
why doesn't mew2king just buy a controller already?
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
He doesn't like the new controller feeling
He said he likes something that has to do with the analog stick sensitivity or something
idk ask him
Also can someone explain what ledge dashing is >.<
is it just gain invincibility frames > wave land onto the stage
Mew2King
King of the Mews
only play at tournaments
havent found a good one (i had one but R button broke) =[
sheik's easy just Shine -> retreating immediate nair. this hard counters her Nair OOS which most sheiks (even me) try to do off habit. This is good vs Peach too (she can't nair OOS, not even close).
vs jiggs just shine-grab until they start rolling. She cannot punish you (nor can she wavedash away in time) unless she does spot dodge rest and she has to make a HARD READ to do that. It's really good vs Jigglypuff because she has a slow jump therefore slow counters OOS.
falco dittos up smash OOS if he delays the pressure.
otherwise if he does immediate aerial just aerial OOS after it. Example that I think is good is Dair -> down smash (cuz they won't tech this).
I think shine-grab is decent in falco dittos too. It's better vs jigglypuff though in terms of easy-to-land
vs ICs just shine-grab randomly into F throw? idk it's worth trying randomly at least? (esp at higher %s)
vs fox do anything cuz he's easy to outrange with any move (that's why i think he's overrated).
havent found a good one (i had one but R button broke) =[
sheik's easy just Shine -> retreating immediate nair. this hard counters her Nair OOS which most sheiks (even me) try to do off habit. This is good vs Peach too (she can't nair OOS, not even close).
vs jiggs just shine-grab until they start rolling. She cannot punish you (nor can she wavedash away in time) unless she does spot dodge rest and she has to make a HARD READ to do that. It's really good vs Jigglypuff because she has a slow jump therefore slow counters OOS.
falco dittos up smash OOS if he delays the pressure.
otherwise if he does immediate aerial just aerial OOS after it. Example that I think is good is Dair -> down smash (cuz they won't tech this).
I think shine-grab is decent in falco dittos too. It's better vs jigglypuff though in terms of easy-to-land
vs ICs just shine-grab randomly into F throw? idk it's worth trying randomly at least? (esp at higher %s)
vs fox do anything cuz he's easy to outrange with any move (that's why i think he's overrated).
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Sounds like he's too lazy to break it in.
Fox can outrange Falco's CC options, so that's a two-way street.
Fox can outrange Falco's CC options, so that's a two-way street.
danieljosebatista
Smash Journeyman
Kirbykaze really piqued my interest about the nuances of ledgedashing. PP any chance you want to comment on it?
Mew2King
King of the Mews
PP I do think you should consider everything that I said honestly in my above post. You don't have to respond to it but do consider it.
numberonenacho
Smash Lord
invincible ledge dash 4 life cockf4gs
~Eggz
~Eggz
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
>cockf4g.
It's not an insult if it's true.
It's not an insult if it's true.
Yeah I thought so about KSN for a long time until someone from Florida(or GA...one of those southern areas) told me otherwise and I watched Shiz lose games to KSN's Sheik in some tournament. He certainly played a lot of Fox and even Falco well too.
I enjoyed the rest of that post. XD
I'll try....I've been up for a while now so we'll see how it goes lol.Kirbykaze really piqued my interest about the nuances of ledgedashing. PP any chance you want to comment on it?
Ledge dashing is awesome in that you have actionable invincibility frames like KK said. This means you can get onstage and move around a tiny bit or attack and the startup will be safe(with a little wiggle room for error I believe). However, there's not really enough time to ledge dash laser or set up any real pressure if someone is not already by the edge, so this can be spaced out/hit from above by platform shenanigans or whatever.
Fortunately, people like trying to be close to Falco so that he doesn't start doing ledge hop double laser. That junk's a pain from anything outside of a nearby platform or close range lol. This could all lead to funny shield bait tricks eventually but that isn't happening right now so I guess don't worry about it lol.
If this is more of a general thing, then you generally can't get too far off of a ledge dash with anyone and go much farther than you would jumping up and attacking or whatever, so it is merely another spacing from the edge tool unless you have the opponent come close for some reason. I am assuming all punishes will be taking place after invincibility wears off because people should be learning about how far that invincible ledge dash can reach and just chill somewhere around that area.
Ledge dashing varies in effectiveness based on positioning(to include platforms) and conditioning. That's probably how I'd sum it up.
....
I really hope this made sense lol.
Winston
Smash Master
I think forcing them to respect the ledgedash range is fantastic, though. How are they going to stop you from LHDLing and therefore gaining the chance to laser if they are that far away?
Not trying to say you can spam it and profit. The strength is that you use it enough so that they have to respect it, and when they do, all your other options get stronger as a result. Falco gets to LHDL. Fox gets room to waveland straight down on the edge of the stage or the edge of the platform, because they have to be really far away if they want to punish a ledgedash nair/dash attack/dash usmash. It's very difficult for Fox to get off the edge traditionally vs. characters that outrange him (Marth/Sheik in particular), and his ledge side B is wayyy worse than Falco's, so he has a lot to gain from it.
I think it's analogous to shield dropping (which is apparently all the rage these days). They both turn a solidly disadvantaged situation into something that's closer to neutral. It's a hard tool to use correctly, but the potential is there to be more than a gimmick.
Why am I posting this a day after I made a post about how technological advancements are overrated? Hell if I know.
Not trying to say you can spam it and profit. The strength is that you use it enough so that they have to respect it, and when they do, all your other options get stronger as a result. Falco gets to LHDL. Fox gets room to waveland straight down on the edge of the stage or the edge of the platform, because they have to be really far away if they want to punish a ledgedash nair/dash attack/dash usmash. It's very difficult for Fox to get off the edge traditionally vs. characters that outrange him (Marth/Sheik in particular), and his ledge side B is wayyy worse than Falco's, so he has a lot to gain from it.
I think it's analogous to shield dropping (which is apparently all the rage these days). They both turn a solidly disadvantaged situation into something that's closer to neutral. It's a hard tool to use correctly, but the potential is there to be more than a gimmick.
Why am I posting this a day after I made a post about how technological advancements are overrated? Hell if I know.
unknown522
Some guy
Winston, I ledge WD a lot with both spacies. It almost won me my set vs BAM 3 weeks ago in a falco ditto. But then I flubbed the grab afterward and did a FH f-air instead and lost for that, cuz we were both at high percent.
Ledge WD is amazing. If characters try to trap you at the edge, then you can take the ledge, then WD through whatever they try to hit you with, and either get a free punish of force them to back off
Ledge WD is amazing. If characters try to trap you at the edge, then you can take the ledge, then WD through whatever they try to hit you with, and either get a free punish of force them to back off
Winston
Smash Master
Yea, you are better at it than most. But you usually use the shine ledgedash with Fox, right? I feel like the frames of invincibility you lose kills its effectiveness a lot.
unknown522
Some guy
I do both. I like to shine-WD when I think that I will hit them with the shine. Otherwise, I do a normal WD.
Or if I think I'll SD, then I do the shine as well.
But yeah, like when I play vs KK, or IB. I take the edge when they try to trap me, and WD on to abuse the invincibility. If they don't respect it, then I can shine or hit with an aerial, or even grab them. It's really gay.
Or if I think I'll SD, then I do the shine as well.
But yeah, like when I play vs KK, or IB. I take the edge when they try to trap me, and WD on to abuse the invincibility. If they don't respect it, then I can shine or hit with an aerial, or even grab them. It's really gay.
Winston
Smash Master
Yea, it's a great alternative to rolling when you're in that situation. Really good vs. Marth/Sheik/Jigglypuff cause they are slow and rely on their moves to beat yours when you are cornered. It's a lot harder for them to keep pressuring you and be far away enough to be safe.
unknown522
Some guy
So true. So true. I also like that fox and falco have different options from the ledge from each other. Like both can WD. But also, if opponents are too close then fox can wave shine from the edge instead of just going straight into the ledge WD. If they try to run, then fox can run in and catch them with a n-air.
For falco, if they try to space, or simply jump. You can LHDL, and potentially get a combo that way.
So many good options from the ledge. I mean, I'm definitely missing more stuff that they can do, but this comes to mind first especially in terms of counterattacks.
For falco, if they try to space, or simply jump. You can LHDL, and potentially get a combo that way.
So many good options from the ledge. I mean, I'm definitely missing more stuff that they can do, but this comes to mind first especially in terms of counterattacks.
edit: nah I'll do this later way too tired now lol
Mew2King
King of the Mews
fox can do ledge WD to up smash invincible if he's really perfect and fast
Bones0
Smash Legend
Marth can ledgedash into up-B with full invincibility. That **** is mad sexy.
leffen
Smash Champion
instant wd has zero counters.
you are at a advantage in every way except for the fact that you have less stagecontrol (which you already lost when you ended up at the ledge).
It's not foolproof ofc, but it gives you by far the best outcome just like sheiks best option from a grab at the edge is to throw falco offstage.
There are risks with trying to gimp falco (dair spike, easier to followup with dthrow etc) but its almost always the best option anyway, just like wavedashing up is the best option, all other options (except for lasers mby) are just acceptable as a mixup, any other getup is so much worse if spammed while wavedash up can literally never be punished.
you are at a advantage in every way except for the fact that you have less stagecontrol (which you already lost when you ended up at the ledge).
It's not foolproof ofc, but it gives you by far the best outcome just like sheiks best option from a grab at the edge is to throw falco offstage.
There are risks with trying to gimp falco (dair spike, easier to followup with dthrow etc) but its almost always the best option anyway, just like wavedashing up is the best option, all other options (except for lasers mby) are just acceptable as a mixup, any other getup is so much worse if spammed while wavedash up can literally never be punished.
Bing
Smash Master
Bones0, I love that...
For the record, playing spacies has made all my characters improve, and Brawl has made my dash dancing and spacing improve with Marth... kinda awesome...
For the record, playing spacies has made all my characters improve, and Brawl has made my dash dancing and spacing improve with Marth... kinda awesome...
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
PP... falco vs zelda is *** for zelda.
That is all
Edit: Yes, I've played shag.... a lot.
That is all
Edit: Yes, I've played shag.... a lot.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
I played Rubyiris, in that MU, I think I lost actually XD, it's a funny MU.. Falco vs anything low tier, is sorta funny to me... Prolly cuz i play most of the low tiers, but still it's funny.. XD
Max?
Smash Champion
m2k
Doesn't Falco want to Dthrow climbers?
Doesn't Falco want to Dthrow climbers?
bossa nova ♪
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2010
- Messages
- 2,876
ledgedash pivot reverse dolphin slash FTKO
i thought i was the only one who knew about that [haha]
some of the dirtiest **** in melee
SuperMatt
Smash Champion
has anyone noticed what mango does when he's on a platform and wants to get down to the ground? (probably others do this too but idk)
he does short jump and then fastfall through the platform instead of just falling through it, from there you can do bair or shine or almost anything
works wonders
he does short jump and then fastfall through the platform instead of just falling through it, from there you can do bair or shine or almost anything
works wonders
Niko45
Smash Master
Is usmash oos really optimal on late aerials? I really like this post, and I agree about Fox.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Pretty sure Fox's and Falco's usmashes are 1 or 2 frames different from most grabs.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
I used to 3-4 stock Rusty on a regular basis, so I was p. decent at the match up when I still played Zelda as my legit secondary, but GOD DAMN you ***** me with M2, lol.
I also ***** like all of SV at Twisted with Zelda, despite being sick as ****.
they are 7 frames, which means that they're either equal, or 1 frame slower than standard grabs, depending on how exactly JCing works (I'm not sure if it requires 1 frame of jump squat to break your shield or if you go directly from shield to usmash animation).
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
He went Fox in crews at FC:D and the vast majority of his tournament matches online are Fox. I dunno. Maybe he switched eventually, though.
You're gay. <3
Mogwai, you tack on at least a frame.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Yeah, I thought they were 7. And yeah, I'm pretty sure you have to go into jump squat for 1 frame before the usmash starts.