KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
You're also gay.
-
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
Mew2King
King of the Mews
up smash OOS is good against delayed shield pressure (if you have a fast up smash or you play a short character like pikachu or something especially)
otherwise don't do it (most situations)
yeah ICs are prolly better to down throw
in falco dittos you can up smash OOS against delayed shield pressure. If it's only very slightly delayed, then shine OOS is your best option, but up smash leads to a full jump Dair or Bair in falco dittos if it connects.
Also, in falco dittos, if you know they won't delay the pressure, but instead will do an aerial right away, I think (didn't test this but it makes sense that it would work) you can just SH dair OOS after you block the immediate aerial, and then down smash cuz they won't tech it almost 100% of the time.
these are my theories but it seems like very smart ideas I came up with if they work, which I believe they would
In other words, you can punish pretty hard OOS in falco dittos just by guessing if they will delay their aerial or not.
note that these both lose to shine-grabs.
otherwise don't do it (most situations)
yeah ICs are prolly better to down throw
in falco dittos you can up smash OOS against delayed shield pressure. If it's only very slightly delayed, then shine OOS is your best option, but up smash leads to a full jump Dair or Bair in falco dittos if it connects.
Also, in falco dittos, if you know they won't delay the pressure, but instead will do an aerial right away, I think (didn't test this but it makes sense that it would work) you can just SH dair OOS after you block the immediate aerial, and then down smash cuz they won't tech it almost 100% of the time.
these are my theories but it seems like very smart ideas I came up with if they work, which I believe they would
In other words, you can punish pretty hard OOS in falco dittos just by guessing if they will delay their aerial or not.
note that these both lose to shine-grabs.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
If you know they're going to shine grab, just roll.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
yeah I know but what I said is still HARD PUNISHES for a correct guess on what type of pressure falco will give for falco's that don't often use shine-grab. It's useful knowledge to know they can mix up up smash OOS + another free hit, with Dair OOS -> down smash, depending on what type of pressure you think they will use (delayed or immediate)
everything can be countered obviously, but some things are overall better than some other things.
everything can be countered obviously, but some things are overall better than some other things.
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
After playing Nintendude, I've concluded that uthrow is better if you can avoid getting grabbed during and after the throw. The more separated they are the better =)
Bones0
Smash Legend
Any tips for grabbing Popo or what to do when you grab Nana instead? I am way too scared of getting randomly dsmashed or something to go for grabs in that matchup.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
I'm sure you guys would know better than me vs ICs. I don't rly play that MU often ever
bossa nova ♪
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2010
- Messages
- 2,876
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
falco dittos
it's not rock/paper/scissors
it's blackhole/dark matter/supernova
falco dittos
it's not rock/paper/scissors
it's blackhole/dark matter/supernova
Little England
Smash Master
This sounds good! This makes me think, there IS a safe distance they can hit your shield without getting hit by dair right? Also, I feel like they might tech more often than you think considering they might try to fast fall and hit L or R for their lcancel.
I'm going to play around with that upsmash as well.
what did you do?
I have noticed, and it's a pretty good trick. He takes his time with things even though he approaches a lot.
Darn Jigglypuff.
I don't Dthrow ICs much but I usually don't have much success with it if I do. Like Zhu said I like upthrowing them whenever possible for the same reason.
M2K's Dair OOS on immediate aerial will probably not give good results without proper mixup because it's pretty easy to react after doing that early aerial. You'd want to force them to jab or try to go in again or something before Dair'ing.
I don't think ledge dashing is omg amazing for Falco but it is very good. Actionable invincibility is nice but it's in the same place pretty much every time so that can be spaced out still. Yes it makes double laser a nice mixup but it doesn't change that the ledge dash in itself is something to spam necessarily(simply because the options from it aren't too safe on someone spacing freely against Falco without lasers to change how the moves will be spaced). I suppose I could be giving ledge dashes a hard time for no reason but if people wanted to abuse ledge dashes I couldn't really tell them not to since it's a great option....I just don't want it overhyped I guess.
I lol'd at KK calling me gay. XD <3
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Sorry, I meant to elaborate on that, since I was on my phone when I posted it in the first place and didn't feel like typing >_>
Um, a lot of fighting zelda is knowing how to apply pressure without getting ***** for it. I do lots of grabs/shine grabs vs her, or double shine-->retreating aerial. Essentially, I do a bunch of safe stuff. It's so easy to get zelda into a bad position (like shielding) that as long as you don't get punished while trying to take advantage of it, she can't really do anything.
It's a lot about patience; think about killing puff for a second. It can be frustrating, but you can't afford to lose patience and let the puff regain momentum or kill you for being reckless. You don't really have any special kill setups on zelda, so just take your time and hit her a lot; she'll die eventually (unless you can get an edgeguard on her, or an upthrow-->aerial). Edgeguard zelda the same way you edgeguard sheik, btw.
I would talk about dealing with powershielded lasers and stuff, but you already know how to deal with that just fine.
Learn to tech her dsmash edeguards; if you do that, you can just go low everytime with up-b and she doesn't really have a way to deal with it.
You're a better character, just don't give her anything for free and you eventually just out character her. It's like I said about her shield; as long as you don't go for anything crazy, and apply solid pressure to her in general you should be fine. I never really advocate straight up running away from a character, or rushing one down... it's the same thing here. Zelda *does* have difficulty dealing with lasers (unless she can powershield consistently, but thats any character) and anytime she goes into the air she's kinda free. If zelda is jumping a lot, she's like any other character with bad aerial mobility and no good hitbox below her; just **** her for being int he air too much.
If she's grounded, you can force a lot of shields and just be really grab happy; you don't need to combo directly, just put her in a bad position and continuously take advantage of it. Dtilt shield poke is a pretty legit way to kill her, since you should be able to apply a lot of pressure to her without putting yourself in any real danger.
Also don't forget that her grab is *terrible*. You can be pretty comfortable shielding vs her; treating it sort of like peach. She's slow, and doesn't have a good way to cover your options. The main difference is that peach hitting your shield is terrible for you... zelda hitting your shield is sort of w/e. Due to her grab being so bad, it's usually pretty telegraphed, you just have to be careful. Think like vs samus; if you grow complacent you can get easily grabbed, but as long as you're careful it should be pretty difficult for samus to take advantage of shield camping.
Edit: In fact, zelda reminds me a lot of samus in general. She sort of requires you to run *into* her to actually get anything going.
Um, a lot of fighting zelda is knowing how to apply pressure without getting ***** for it. I do lots of grabs/shine grabs vs her, or double shine-->retreating aerial. Essentially, I do a bunch of safe stuff. It's so easy to get zelda into a bad position (like shielding) that as long as you don't get punished while trying to take advantage of it, she can't really do anything.
It's a lot about patience; think about killing puff for a second. It can be frustrating, but you can't afford to lose patience and let the puff regain momentum or kill you for being reckless. You don't really have any special kill setups on zelda, so just take your time and hit her a lot; she'll die eventually (unless you can get an edgeguard on her, or an upthrow-->aerial). Edgeguard zelda the same way you edgeguard sheik, btw.
I would talk about dealing with powershielded lasers and stuff, but you already know how to deal with that just fine.
Learn to tech her dsmash edeguards; if you do that, you can just go low everytime with up-b and she doesn't really have a way to deal with it.
You're a better character, just don't give her anything for free and you eventually just out character her. It's like I said about her shield; as long as you don't go for anything crazy, and apply solid pressure to her in general you should be fine. I never really advocate straight up running away from a character, or rushing one down... it's the same thing here. Zelda *does* have difficulty dealing with lasers (unless she can powershield consistently, but thats any character) and anytime she goes into the air she's kinda free. If zelda is jumping a lot, she's like any other character with bad aerial mobility and no good hitbox below her; just **** her for being int he air too much.
If she's grounded, you can force a lot of shields and just be really grab happy; you don't need to combo directly, just put her in a bad position and continuously take advantage of it. Dtilt shield poke is a pretty legit way to kill her, since you should be able to apply a lot of pressure to her without putting yourself in any real danger.
Also don't forget that her grab is *terrible*. You can be pretty comfortable shielding vs her; treating it sort of like peach. She's slow, and doesn't have a good way to cover your options. The main difference is that peach hitting your shield is terrible for you... zelda hitting your shield is sort of w/e. Due to her grab being so bad, it's usually pretty telegraphed, you just have to be careful. Think like vs samus; if you grow complacent you can get easily grabbed, but as long as you're careful it should be pretty difficult for samus to take advantage of shield camping.
Edit: In fact, zelda reminds me a lot of samus in general. She sort of requires you to run *into* her to actually get anything going.
Well I wish I remembered what all Shag did now lol but alright I guess you have more experience in the matchup than me.
You don't think Zelda can aerial/move in the air in such a way that it'd be hard to approach due to kicks? Like say you're over a SHL away and SHL in, then Zelda could SH kick slightly retreating. You can't really approach that because her kicks will outrange your moves and she can kick out of laser stun usually. I'm aware Zelda ends up losing stage control because of this but a mixup for this is Zelda kicking out instead of in when you try to take your stage when you laser.
I suck at teching lol that is probably part of my problem. XD
You don't think Zelda can aerial/move in the air in such a way that it'd be hard to approach due to kicks? Like say you're over a SHL away and SHL in, then Zelda could SH kick slightly retreating. You can't really approach that because her kicks will outrange your moves and she can kick out of laser stun usually. I'm aware Zelda ends up losing stage control because of this but a mixup for this is Zelda kicking out instead of in when you try to take your stage when you laser.
I suck at teching lol that is probably part of my problem. XD
Wake
Smash Master
Yeah I've seen Armada do that too.
Pi
Smash Hero
i don't see why you'd really have to laser zelda any way, unless she's dash attacking
can she sh kick you if you duck?
can she sh kick you if you duck?
Little England
Smash Master
Some stuff I remember from playing Cosmo:
-Zelda's SH fair and bair being canceled by lasers is really silly. IIRC she can get 2 out so watch out for that. edit/lol ya you just said this. you're right.
-Grabs are the key to this MU. Like Druggedfox said, Zelda has to shield. Throw her towards the edge of the stage for indirect damage/positioning. Poke her with dtilt.
-Unless you are directly under Zelda don't challenge her in the air. You'll trade w/ toes.
-I don't really agree with recovering low every time and trying to tech. She can grab the ledge quickly with her funky moonwalk. I think forward b heights and distances should be included. (I like forward b'ing into her head to avoid dsmash and the bulk of her neutral B)
-Shielding is good, but not great imo. Aside from Zelda's upsmash and nair being great shield pokes which sometimes lead to grabs, I feel shielding needlessly gives you less options against her.
-She is definitely like fighting Samus. She can be hard to kill, but you just gotta stick to the gameplan and don't try anything stupid.
-As a side note, I felt the most successful when I was approaching Cosmo and not shooting lasers all day. Her neutral b will reflect more lasers than you can shoot and she has a pretty easy time powershielding. Of course lasering also gives her time to position herself.
-Also almost forgot, dair>dair>dair>dair>dair>dair>dair of course.
-Zelda's SH fair and bair being canceled by lasers is really silly. IIRC she can get 2 out so watch out for that. edit/lol ya you just said this. you're right.
-Grabs are the key to this MU. Like Druggedfox said, Zelda has to shield. Throw her towards the edge of the stage for indirect damage/positioning. Poke her with dtilt.
-Unless you are directly under Zelda don't challenge her in the air. You'll trade w/ toes.
-I don't really agree with recovering low every time and trying to tech. She can grab the ledge quickly with her funky moonwalk. I think forward b heights and distances should be included. (I like forward b'ing into her head to avoid dsmash and the bulk of her neutral B)
-Shielding is good, but not great imo. Aside from Zelda's upsmash and nair being great shield pokes which sometimes lead to grabs, I feel shielding needlessly gives you less options against her.
-She is definitely like fighting Samus. She can be hard to kill, but you just gotta stick to the gameplan and don't try anything stupid.
-As a side note, I felt the most successful when I was approaching Cosmo and not shooting lasers all day. Her neutral b will reflect more lasers than you can shoot and she has a pretty easy time powershielding. Of course lasering also gives her time to position herself.
-Also almost forgot, dair>dair>dair>dair>dair>dair>dair of course.
Pi
Smash Hero
jab cancels on her shield would probably wreck her as well since she' cant grab she'll probably have to roll or buffer a CC dsmash out of it which is meh
mix in jab shine/dair pressure and ur probably golden in terms of her not being able to escape shield
how's her priority when ur directly above her? is her uair a threat at all? or upsmash/uptilt?
mix in jab shine/dair pressure and ur probably golden in terms of her not being able to escape shield
how's her priority when ur directly above her? is her uair a threat at all? or upsmash/uptilt?
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
I'd expect Zelda's upward and downward angled Ftilt to be great shield pokes too, actually. Dsmash hits extremely low to the ground, too.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
why are we discussing zelda? she sucks
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I shouldnt have said *everytime*; it was an exaggeration to prove a point, my bad.
Also, when you go low, you can place yourself such that you can either angle to sweetspot, or go above the ledge. Go above the ledge and land on stage if she can grab the ledge, etc etc.
I agree that retreating kick is a good mixup, don't get me wrong. It just reminds me a lot of marth's retreating fair; it really is good, but the loss of stage control is pretty significant. The fact of the matter is, you can just continuously play it safe more or less safe; eventually zelda will get scared and do a retreating kick when you didn't actually commit to an approach. If she's facing backwards, you can just laser-->shield or something similar.
Actually, even if she's facing forwards you could shield, then shine OoS into a waveland away or something (on a platform).
Do you see what I mean about that? It's like R/P/S except she doesn't have a good answer to your rock. If you do 80%+ rock the chance of her consistently getting rewards to make it worth it is really really low. Remember, she doesn't really have that many options if she's shielding.
Compare it to fox baiting a falco's bair OoS or something. Does it mean fox can never hit falco's shield? Hardly. It just means you have to take care to bait a lot first and condition them. I mean, you dash dance plenty with falco so I think you'd be fine if you just stuck to that as usual and played your normal conditioning game.
Idk, I really liked the marth retreating fair OoS analogy. Yes, it's a poweful tool; no, it doesn't really change the fact that marth/zelda shielding vs falco is a pretty bad situation.
Oh yeah, learn to DI so that she can't get you with bs upsmash OoS continuously (shag probably did that to you a lot). Iirc her upsmash comes out in 5 frames, so 6 OoS since she has to JC. That's pretty amazing... except that you can more or less mash random directions really fast and you'll probably get out of it >_> (Okay, not really random, but that's how I feel a lot of the time when I get hit by that move).
I'm not saying zelda can't do *anything* but do remember that most zelda players are *especially* good versus falco... like... it's their best matchup, while you (and pretty much everyone else, myself included) have minimal zelda experience xDD
Also, when you go low, you can place yourself such that you can either angle to sweetspot, or go above the ledge. Go above the ledge and land on stage if she can grab the ledge, etc etc.
I agree that retreating kick is a good mixup, don't get me wrong. It just reminds me a lot of marth's retreating fair; it really is good, but the loss of stage control is pretty significant. The fact of the matter is, you can just continuously play it safe more or less safe; eventually zelda will get scared and do a retreating kick when you didn't actually commit to an approach. If she's facing backwards, you can just laser-->shield or something similar.
Actually, even if she's facing forwards you could shield, then shine OoS into a waveland away or something (on a platform).
Do you see what I mean about that? It's like R/P/S except she doesn't have a good answer to your rock. If you do 80%+ rock the chance of her consistently getting rewards to make it worth it is really really low. Remember, she doesn't really have that many options if she's shielding.
Compare it to fox baiting a falco's bair OoS or something. Does it mean fox can never hit falco's shield? Hardly. It just means you have to take care to bait a lot first and condition them. I mean, you dash dance plenty with falco so I think you'd be fine if you just stuck to that as usual and played your normal conditioning game.
Idk, I really liked the marth retreating fair OoS analogy. Yes, it's a poweful tool; no, it doesn't really change the fact that marth/zelda shielding vs falco is a pretty bad situation.
Oh yeah, learn to DI so that she can't get you with bs upsmash OoS continuously (shag probably did that to you a lot). Iirc her upsmash comes out in 5 frames, so 6 OoS since she has to JC. That's pretty amazing... except that you can more or less mash random directions really fast and you'll probably get out of it >_> (Okay, not really random, but that's how I feel a lot of the time when I get hit by that move).
I'm not saying zelda can't do *anything* but do remember that most zelda players are *especially* good versus falco... like... it's their best matchup, while you (and pretty much everyone else, myself included) have minimal zelda experience xDD
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
would you stop us from talking about DK? HUH?
i wanna know what characters will rise from the dead in the future metagame. like 2 years from now people are saying "how were we not aware yoshi was high tier"? even though thats way unlikely, i just wanna know what incredibly unlikely (only considered unlikely now) thing will happen in the future.
even some new tech that becomes optimal would be awesome
i wanna know what characters will rise from the dead in the future metagame. like 2 years from now people are saying "how were we not aware yoshi was high tier"? even though thats way unlikely, i just wanna know what incredibly unlikely (only considered unlikely now) thing will happen in the future.
even some new tech that becomes optimal would be awesome
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Oh yeah; to beat jab cancels she could easily just grab on purpose and get hit by a jab, but CC -->dsmash it or something.
Pi
Smash Hero
that's what i meant by buffer cc dsmash out of it
but mixing in shine and dair in ur shield pressure i can't imagine allows for much room to get out of it
but mixing in shine and dair in ur shield pressure i can't imagine allows for much room to get out of it
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Zelda is a surprisingly good counter to other low tiers. Vman used to have more problems with Iron Dragon's Zelda than pretty much anybody else in Tucson.
D
Deleted member
Guest
3 things:
1. falco does beat everyone. seriously.
2. falco ***** zelda. show me any zelda and I'll 3 stock that player EASILY with falco. that MU is garbage.
3. this game is entirely horribly unbalanced for low tiers.
@Druggedfox: I'm still saying that she could mix up a kick at you or on your shield safely, but it probably doesn't make enough difference to matter. I haven't played the matchup in so long I might figure out how to handle that efficiently this time haha.
Game and Watch could probably be one of those breakout characters. He's got some legit stuff in my opinion(maybe not as huge as pikachu but who knows lol he has room to move up).
I wish Ka Master had played longer........that guy was too good with Luigi.
@Mogwai: because why not =p
Edit: yeah @3 I know but I was trying to bring a little hope it might not be as bad as we always assume. I know it's awful though lol don't get me wrong.
Game and Watch could probably be one of those breakout characters. He's got some legit stuff in my opinion(maybe not as huge as pikachu but who knows lol he has room to move up).
I wish Ka Master had played longer........that guy was too good with Luigi.
@Mogwai: because why not =p
Edit: yeah @3 I know but I was trying to bring a little hope it might not be as bad as we always assume. I know it's awful though lol don't get me wrong.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
Does there seem to be much use for Ftilt? Love the distance it covers and the fact that it will clank with moves like Marths ftilt, dtilt, or jab, but hitting with it doesn't do a whole lot.
Fortress | Sveet
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@2 - Respect to you umbreon, but i think cosmo would beat your falco.
ruhtraeel
Smash Ace
FIRST HAND INFO FROM THE MASTER HIMSELF
G&W ***** (offence-wise)
Zelda is amazing in teams.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJIzh_CLdkw&feature=channel_video_title
@Xelylode: It's a really good poking move(and counterpoking move like Unknown said a while back) as well as a decent link from lasers that any other move could not connect from(or not do so safely due to CC). angled Ftilt is also good for catching sweetspots and Ftilt is great to do to catch spacie side Bs that go into you because it sets up for an easy enough edgeguard no matter the % usually. Angled up Ftilts might be good for beating out some aerial approaches/Peach's FC stuff but I haven't tested that so that's theory nonsense for now I suppose lol.
D
Deleted member
Guest
tbh i don't think cosmo is better than my zelda even, but the only way i can compare is my own performance vs darkrain and m2k (i still lose over 50%, but i don't get styled on or lose all of them). but yeah i would body his zelda no questions. no disrespect to cosmo, i think he's very good. but there's no way i'd lose to a zelda in a MU that bad. it's just not feasible.
mers
Smash Ace
Can't you just hold down to get out of Zelda's usmash, assuming you were grounded when you got hit?
IDK. For some reason I've just always SDIed out of Zelda's fsmash/usmash instinctively. Like, even when I was incredibly bad at this game I just did it without thinking. Now I'm just kinda bad, and it still happens.
IDK. For some reason I've just always SDIed out of Zelda's fsmash/usmash instinctively. Like, even when I was incredibly bad at this game I just did it without thinking. Now I'm just kinda bad, and it still happens.
Warhawk
Smash Lord
I like G&W but I feel like he has a lot of problems once he's in his shield. Also I feel that the inability to l-cancel the turtle and his uair hurts his combo ability outside of chainthrowing. I do think he's underrated though.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Ftilt is an amazing poke/pressure move. It's extremely safe, and has deceptively long range and knockback.
mers
Smash Ace
True, but I think it kinda illustrates how GnW works: he's got a few neat tricks, but he still gets seriously ****ed up by anyone that actually respects them.
Of all the F/G tier characters, the only ones that I think are truly underrated are Yoshi and maybe Pichu. But they're still bad, and there's still only 11 meaningful characters in this game.
Fortress | Sveet
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hmm fair enough. I suppose theres only one way to find out
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I feel you PP, and I do think its good... eh its w/e. Play shag at TO7 if he's there and then we can talk xDDD
Uhh I think G&W loses to shield camping too hard to be a break out character. In fact, shield camping completely shuts him down >_>
/opinion
Uhh I think G&W loses to shield camping too hard to be a break out character. In fact, shield camping completely shuts him down >_>
/opinion
unknown522
Some guy
when I went to Pittsburg in May. I 4-stocked the lake with both fox and falco.
I lost a MM with pichu though >_<. It was recorded, but never put up (same with GFs at that tourney).
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
poor Zelda
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Oh, good **** unknown =D
Yeah... zelda... >_> I mean she can kick and stuff, but eh.
Yeah... zelda... >_> I mean she can kick and stuff, but eh.
Pi
Smash Hero
exceppttt it'll never happenhmm fair enough. I suppose theres only one way to find out
and i'm pretty sure cosmo would win LOL