PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[EWC]

A lot of characters can uair out of shield to punish double shine wavelands. Not spacies so much but yeah. I used to spam it way too often so now my roomate will actually punish it by reaction most of the time.

 

[Summonedfist]

erik why do you never come out or post in 'loo boards -_-

 

[mers]

Yo I just "discovered" onstage side-B today also. It's ****ing great (and surprisingly difficult to punish).

 

[Warhawk]

A lot of characters can uair out of shield to punish double shine wavelands. Not spacies so much but yeah. I used to spam it way too often so now my roomate will actually punish it by reaction most of the time.

I feel like uairing out of shield would be really dangerous though, especially against Falco. Couldn't he shield drop a dair/nair from the platform and then its autocombo time?

 

[Shroomed]

Yeah, check the April 18 update. I don't remember all of the good wins he had, but they included HMW and SFAT and most of the other top players there, IIRC; he was getting 2nd at every tourney he went to behind Dajuan that period. Since that period, he's only gone to one tournament at which he actually did kind of poorly. Norcal is weird.

I wish he'd come back. I'm going to start going to his house and playing with him, hopefully that motivates him to hit up tournaments again.

 

[Acryte]

The problem with the shine -> shine -> waveland is the other Falco can just jump oos and shine -> waveland after the first Falco's shine.

yea shiz does that **** all day.

 

[tarheeljks]

I wish he'd come back. I'm going to start going to his house and playing with him, hopefully that motivates him to hit up tournaments again.

rumor has it he will be at the next local

 

[choknater]

norcal "randoms" are the most **** in the world

lord is definitely a random

our most godlike random among randoms

 

[Veetaak]

It feels like doubleshine waveland can be punished by Usmashes after second shine, Fox and Falco (especially fox) jump OoS after second shine and counter with a shine, Uairs after 2nd shine and even bair after 2nd shine could probably work for different chars.

EDIT: Definitely not saying that it's a bad mix-up

 

[Winston]

The waveland in place is punishable by like every character, but the axe-style waveland off the platform away from them is probably safe vs. non Marth/Ganon/Falcon characters.

edit: I don't know why there's so much discussion about the "mango-style" doubleshine waveland being punishable when PP punishes Mango for it in one of the recorded ROM sets

 

[unknown522]

edit: I don't know why there's so much discussion about the "mango-style" doubleshine waveland being punishable when PP punishes Mango for it in one of the recorded ROM sets

lol, that keeps happening.

 

[Rubyiris]

Double shine waveland off laser is business.

Y'all need to give respect to Axe for being the innovator for double shine waveland.

 

[Blistering Speed]

EDIT: Posted in the wrong thread.

As healthy advice PP, I don't want to see the salty side of you in post form again, stick to channeling it into the bird. Not a good look for you, ma' dood.

 

[Big Pookie]

shield drop -> shine -> wl off platform/maybe rising nair to top platform

is this viable in anyway? maybe as a mixup of shine OoS?

 

[Rubyiris]

Just space against shine oos. :\

I know I'm probably the last person you'd hear that from, but seriously. double shine waveland off, or fade away aerials are both pretty safe. So is grounded double shine.

 

[Dr Peepee]

EDIT: Posted in the wrong thread.

As healthy advice PP, I don't want to see the salty side of you in post form again, stick to channeling it into the bird. Not a good look for you, ma' dood.

Point taken. It won't happen again. =)

 

[Big Pookie]

I was speaking more of doing a shield drop shine instead of a normal shine oos, against someone you don't really want to be above - would you be able to wl off without being grabbed?

I really like shield dropping so I've been trying to find some more uses for it lol

 

[Rubyiris]

@the guys discussing on-stage illusion: Forward started experimenting with it in 2006. I started using it vs Marth mains in 2007 as a way to escape.

Just be careful not to telegraph it.

 

[Bones0]

I was speaking more of doing a shield drop shine instead of a normal shine oos, against someone you don't really want to be above - would you be able to wl off without being grabbed?

I really like shield dropping so I've been trying to find some more uses for it lol

I shine drop all the time. It's noticeably faster than Falco's regular shine OoS (shine on frame 3 as opposed to 6).

 

[Rubyiris]

I read that as shine dropping to beat out shine oos.

I'm a huge advocate of shield drop. ****'s broken.

 

[Big Pookie]

Sweet, I thought it seemed faster but wasn't sure with the framework.

Also, what do you follow up the shine with? You can reach the top platform if you are close enough to the middle, so maybe a nair or something to punish if they try anything.. but I feel like wl off is the safest choice.

 

[Bones0]

Sweet, I thought it seemed faster but wasn't sure with the framework.

Also, what do you follow up the shine with? You can reach the top platform if you are close enough to the middle, so maybe a nair or something to punish if they try anything.. but I feel like wl off is the safest choice.

I usually just treat it like any other shine waveland. Usually you'll just double jump dair. You can also shine drop bair if they are a KO percent.

 

[Big Pookie]

ahh yes, I don't know why but I was thinking if they shield the shinedrop, **** I'm tired. shinedrop bair sounds sexy tho imma have to work that in.

 

[Rubyiris]

I'm practicing waveland off double jump waveland utilt, and shine -> double jump utilt.

 

[Big Pookie]

If you shined them across the stage I bet you could wl off -> sideB to the edge cancel on the far platform and DJ Bair.. maybe.

 

[Rubyiris]

I'm more fond of extending the combo, so I'd try to work in the dair, or a grab.

 

[Bones0]

If someone DI's your shine drop too far to the side, just Phantasm ledge cancel on over to them. I do it all the time.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

A lot of characters can uair out of shield to punish double shine wavelands. Not spacies so much but yeah. I used to spam it way too often so now my roomate will actually punish it by reaction most of the time.

I was basically thinking this. You should basically be able to react to the waveland part at least. Characters like Marth / Falcon / Ganon have great uairs to punish the waveland. Peach can uair / nair...

I just think the shine shine waveland is only another option. Obviously Mango will adjust if people start punishing him (waveland back for example), but his setup is far from perfect, that's all.

 

[Big Pookie]

Yeah, I would much rather extend the combo as well, just a mixup that popped into my head lol

 

[JPOBS]

theres a surprising amount of misinformation about this supposed "mango style" of double shine waveland in this thread 0.o

first of all, like zhu was saying, it isn't even that safe. Wavelanding is slow and commits you to a direction for a set period of time. Its not unrealistic (or hard even) for most characters to just upair you OOS. Spacies can jump oos and shine YOU while you're above them on the platform (depedning on exact positioning)

I mean yea you can do cool things like fall off with a laser, or waveland past them and fall off with a bair so you're now behind them. But yea, its not some miracle new shield pressure. It effectively ends your pressure unless the opponent literally just sits in his shield throughout the entire duration of the maneuvre.

that being said, I like doing this a lot, especially vs fox because:
1. it stops him from using his shine oos
2. even if the fox jumps out and shines you, taking a shine from fox on a platform is nothing.

 

[Winston]

why would fox jump up and shine you instead of uairing? (assuming you're not low enough to fake cc the uair)

I agree that stopping fox from abusing shine OOS is important though.

 

[JPOBS]

^ ya he can upair too.

when im fox, i personally prefer shine because if it missis you're not as vulneable as if upair misses.
its also harder to land if the falco wavelands to either direction cuz you have no momentum to get distance.

but ya uair is a concern too fo sho

 

[Rubyiris]

I mentioned my stance on the pressure versus positioning earlier in the thrwad

 

[Druggedfox]

I dont see how you get positional advantage by being above them though >_>

 

[Deleted member]

I dont see how you get positional advantage by being above them though >_>

the idea is to do aerial > shine > jump > shine @ head height (important) > second jump waveland in place to the platform and block. if either shine hits, the waveland sets you up for a good punishment. if neither hits, you want the opponent to hit your shield so you can OOS them with something via platform drop, waveland off the platform OOS, or even just a regular OOS option.

there's a fairly narrow window to punish it and the possible shield DI and/or platform drop can make it fairly technically demanding. the idea is to have fairly safe aggression and ending in a good position for baiting as a plan B. think of it like roy ending combos with his counter (it's actually not terrible).

 

[Druggedfox]

While that's true, and I think it's good pressure, I still don't think anybody should call being above a marth/ganon/falcon positional advantage.

Also, if we're being that technical with shield dropping and such... falco/fox players will be able to jump OoS and just shineland on the platform with no lag and do shineland-->grab/shine/stuff.

Once again, I personally use this pressure frequently... but its far from "positional advantage"

 

[Pi]

-.-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvKMEVu0mhU

 

[-ACE-]

Point taken. It won't happen again. =)

**** that! When you wanna get mad GET MAD.

Let it out! You keep your beak closed often enough lol

 

[Battlecow]

Yeah PP salty PP is the best PP.

 

[EWC]

erik why do you never come out or post in 'loo boards -_-

We (by that I mean me and my roomates aka the entire waterloo smash scene right now) keep forgetting what date the Toronto monthlies are on. And the 'loo board is so dead I just assumed no one was reading it anymore. I guess I'll try posting there.

The waveland in place is punishable by like every character, but the axe-style waveland off the platform away from them is probably safe vs. non Marth/Ganon/Falcon characters.

This is probably true. To be fair those are exactly the characters that I get punished by for doing it. Also sheik sometimes with nair. But more generally, even if you don't get punished directly you are still putting yourself in a bad position. True you can do the waveland off laser but even that isn't really all too good most of the time because unless they are in a very specific position the laser will be badly spaced and they can probably hit you afterwards.