tarheeljks
Smash Lord
heh, this is what i get for starting at the end of the thread. didn't realize it was being talked about as a mixup
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Copying mango?
You mean copying axe.
He's been doing that **** for yearsssssssss
You mean copying axe.
He's been doing that **** for yearsssssssss
Beat!
Smash Master
^Yeah, I was thinking that too.
unknown522
Some guy
Yo, PP. I just watched your sets vs M2K.
When he does that crappy method of ledge stalling with marth and sheik, you can d-air him for a free kill. There were many times where you were positioned to do it, or trying to bait him into coming onto the stage, but you could've just SH d-air'd him.
Just don't try it vs shino stall.
When he does that crappy method of ledge stalling with marth and sheik, you can d-air him for a free kill. There were many times where you were positioned to do it, or trying to bait him into coming onto the stage, but you could've just SH d-air'd him.
Just don't try it vs shino stall.
umm do you think you can give me a video link timestamped for each character? I'd really really really appreciate it if you did. In my workings on dealing with that I hadn't considered just Dair'ing him so this is a nice surprise haha, thanks. =)
unknown522
Some guy
np. I'm on it.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Why would that be copying mango?
I'm pretty sure lots and lots of falco's do that.
I mean, not everything mango does is new.
double shine waveland has been a pretty standard part of falco's meta for a while now...
Sinji
Smash Master
I've seen this done several times in the past. Good eye.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I guess I never noticed another Falco do it or didn't think it was safe until I saw the way he did it.
/foot in mouth
JPOBS
Smash Hero
its k bro. you live and you learn
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
To be fair, mango sort of hyped the **** out of it before genesis:
HEY GUYS I HAVE THIS AWESOME NEW **** SHIELD PRESSURE
turns out its just double shine waveland... but it's mango so... him hyping it up sorta did stuff to people's impressions I'd imagine.
PP, play me at TO7? =D
HEY GUYS I HAVE THIS AWESOME NEW **** SHIELD PRESSURE
turns out its just double shine waveland... but it's mango so... him hyping it up sorta did stuff to people's impressions I'd imagine.
PP, play me at TO7? =D
aight let's do it =)
bossa nova ♪
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2010
- Messages
- 2,876
guys, forward-b on stage is legit.
obv its utility differs from character to character, but in my honest opinion it is definitely a viable on-stage move that if used at the right level of scarcity can yield combos, put people into teching positions from mid distance, and tech chase. it's so underused on the stage in any metagame ever that i am nearly 100% sure that it AT LEAST has something to offer in the short term, but i would be optimistic enough to say that if used correctly the phantasm is not only some of the sexiest **** since clear plastic over white plastic, but also something that you can use to stick your **** in the opponent's *** and ear at the same time.. or something idk i should probably put this cobra down....
obv its utility differs from character to character, but in my honest opinion it is definitely a viable on-stage move that if used at the right level of scarcity can yield combos, put people into teching positions from mid distance, and tech chase. it's so underused on the stage in any metagame ever that i am nearly 100% sure that it AT LEAST has something to offer in the short term, but i would be optimistic enough to say that if used correctly the phantasm is not only some of the sexiest **** since clear plastic over white plastic, but also something that you can use to stick your **** in the opponent's *** and ear at the same time.. or something idk i should probably put this cobra down....
what kind of stuff does it set up for and how would you set it up(aside from tech chasing)?
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I use it against marth players that are swinging their sword too much around midstage when I'm kinda cornered. I'll be lasering/dash dancing around then just throw a side-b out *right* after they do a move; I generally gain stage control and punish them for a fair/dtilt that they were habitually throwing out to corner me.
I'd never do it in a serious match, even though I have like a 95% success rate >_>
I'd never do it in a serious match, even though I have like a 95% success rate >_>
unknown522
Some guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6uu55DEQII
Game 1:
- 1:01, when he missed the edgeguard. He did 3 ledge stalls. You were close enough to hit him on the first and 3rd.
- 1:19. On the first stall
- 2:54. On the first stall again. Possibly the 3rd as well, but I may be wrong on that.
Game 2:
- 6:10. You went close, and then retreated.
- 6:12. If you didn't f-tilt.
- 6:59. You moved away again when he let go of the ledge.
- 7:04. Another f-tilt
- 7:28. You could've turned around and SH d-air'd.
- 7:53. Again, if you didn't f-tilt.
- 7:57. vs all those stalls, you could've dropped through the platform and d-aird
- 8:15 - 8:23. More platform chances.
- @ 8:30. I know he came up to attack, but the second time you baited him, you could've immediately SH b-air'd him.
- @ 8:40. same as the previous statement
- @ 8:49. That ledge steal was good.
Game 3:
- @ 10:45. That steal was good too.
- There are a few times in this match where it could've been possible to hit him out of his stall, if you had moved forward, instead of away. I don't think that counts as being in position for it, but I figured that I should still note that to give you ideas and such.
- 13:40. If you didn't fulljump. You were also invincible from the respawn, so the chance of it backfiring was really low.
- further on in the match. There are a lot of stalls you could've beaten if you were facing forward. I'm pretty sure that you were either trying to steal the ledge, or fishing for a b-air so you were facing backwards. So that's understandable.
Additional notes: What you can also do to him, is run up and shield, or crouch at the ledge because M2K waits so long on the edge before making an action (I think it's a habit he picked up from playing brawl), but it's really bad in melee to do that. What this does is, if he does the stall then you can SH d-air oos for the kill, but if he decides to attack or ledge WD, then you can counter attack because he has no invincibility due to waiting for so long (d-air/b-air/n-air/shine oos. What have you).
Another alternative is to laser closer, and you will stuff whatever attack he does from the ledge, and you can combo it into (insert move here). If they try to stay underneath you in fear of the laser, then that's your time to d-air. You can also add empty jumps to try and mess with their head. Especially if they try to avoid getting hit by the laser.
Third alternative: do a quick DJ waveland onto the platform. If they try to stall, or even if they whiff an attack, then you can drop through and d-air. If they come onto the stage with an attack and miss though, I'd much rather do a reverse b-air, cuz you probably won't kill them with a d-air and the won't have their DJ if you hit them off anyway. It's all up to preference at that point, since d-air can still probably get you edge traps anyway.
That stuff is generally harder to do to marth due to his damn sword, and better air mobility. The problem for marth though is that his ledge WD isn't invincible towards the end of the animation so you can hit him anyway.
Vs Sheik, there are some good spacing strategies to cover her options if they wait on the ledge too long, because her air mobility sucks. You can stand a bit outside of her ledge hop f-air range, and still be able to cover most of her options. The only thing to be afraid of is a fast ledge WD. But since he was waiting so long on the ledge a lot of the time, he didn't have that option anymore.
Also, if you want me to do set 2 as well. I'll be glad to when it comes on youtube. ^_^
Game 1:
- 1:01, when he missed the edgeguard. He did 3 ledge stalls. You were close enough to hit him on the first and 3rd.
- 1:19. On the first stall
- 2:54. On the first stall again. Possibly the 3rd as well, but I may be wrong on that.
Game 2:
- 6:10. You went close, and then retreated.
- 6:12. If you didn't f-tilt.
- 6:59. You moved away again when he let go of the ledge.
- 7:04. Another f-tilt
- 7:28. You could've turned around and SH d-air'd.
- 7:53. Again, if you didn't f-tilt.
- 7:57. vs all those stalls, you could've dropped through the platform and d-aird
- 8:15 - 8:23. More platform chances.
- @ 8:30. I know he came up to attack, but the second time you baited him, you could've immediately SH b-air'd him.
- @ 8:40. same as the previous statement
- @ 8:49. That ledge steal was good.
Game 3:
- @ 10:45. That steal was good too.
- There are a few times in this match where it could've been possible to hit him out of his stall, if you had moved forward, instead of away. I don't think that counts as being in position for it, but I figured that I should still note that to give you ideas and such.
- 13:40. If you didn't fulljump. You were also invincible from the respawn, so the chance of it backfiring was really low.
- further on in the match. There are a lot of stalls you could've beaten if you were facing forward. I'm pretty sure that you were either trying to steal the ledge, or fishing for a b-air so you were facing backwards. So that's understandable.
Additional notes: What you can also do to him, is run up and shield, or crouch at the ledge because M2K waits so long on the edge before making an action (I think it's a habit he picked up from playing brawl), but it's really bad in melee to do that. What this does is, if he does the stall then you can SH d-air oos for the kill, but if he decides to attack or ledge WD, then you can counter attack because he has no invincibility due to waiting for so long (d-air/b-air/n-air/shine oos. What have you).
Another alternative is to laser closer, and you will stuff whatever attack he does from the ledge, and you can combo it into (insert move here). If they try to stay underneath you in fear of the laser, then that's your time to d-air. You can also add empty jumps to try and mess with their head. Especially if they try to avoid getting hit by the laser.
Third alternative: do a quick DJ waveland onto the platform. If they try to stall, or even if they whiff an attack, then you can drop through and d-air. If they come onto the stage with an attack and miss though, I'd much rather do a reverse b-air, cuz you probably won't kill them with a d-air and the won't have their DJ if you hit them off anyway. It's all up to preference at that point, since d-air can still probably get you edge traps anyway.
That stuff is generally harder to do to marth due to his damn sword, and better air mobility. The problem for marth though is that his ledge WD isn't invincible towards the end of the animation so you can hit him anyway.
Vs Sheik, there are some good spacing strategies to cover her options if they wait on the ledge too long, because her air mobility sucks. You can stand a bit outside of her ledge hop f-air range, and still be able to cover most of her options. The only thing to be afraid of is a fast ledge WD. But since he was waiting so long on the ledge a lot of the time, he didn't have that option anymore.
Also, if you want me to do set 2 as well. I'll be glad to when it comes on youtube. ^_^
danieljosebatista
Smash Journeyman
Thanks, PP. I guess I'll focus more on Marth. Falco is just so fun though
CK Momentum
Smash Apprentice
Dr. PP, how do you review videos? What I've been doing is just watching my matches, and then writing down at each moment what I could have done to either not get hit, or what I could have done to continue my combo. It is pretty tedious though, but I figure I'll need to prepare as much as I can if I want to reach the top level. I want to be able to show you some serious improvement come apex.
inb4 crush texts me about this post.
-CK
EDIT:: I'm now officially a "smash cadet". lol.
inb4 crush texts me about this post.
-CK
EDIT:: I'm now officially a "smash cadet". lol.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
so what do i do wrong vs falco
Divinokage
Smash Legend
You just hesitated to punish where you could've, you just need to stop being scared vs your rivals. Matches are often determined by the fighter's attitude isn't that right?
Unknown: you are wonderfully amazingly **** for posting all of that! <3 I'll respond to that when I get the chance in a bit THANK YOU.
@CK: There are lots of things to look for when you study matches, like what your opponent's game plan was(what it looks like they're forcing you to do or what situations they keep putting you into), where big changes in the match occurred(was it a dropped egdeguard, a missed L-cancel, a hard read mid combo?), or general player habits(do you like to roll a lot at lower percents?, does your opponent pressure harder when they're losing?). Getting a hit or not is a good place to start, but remember that any given match comes with a number of things that, well, make up any given fight in Melee. A video is just taking all of these human elements and thoughts and giving them back to you to observe and pick apart. The more you can learn from a video about why something, literally ANYTHING, happened the better set you will be the next time you play Melee.
Why you got hit or got a hit is just a simple starting point usually. =)
@M2K: You view lasers incorrectly and over-respect shield pressure.
@CK: There are lots of things to look for when you study matches, like what your opponent's game plan was(what it looks like they're forcing you to do or what situations they keep putting you into), where big changes in the match occurred(was it a dropped egdeguard, a missed L-cancel, a hard read mid combo?), or general player habits(do you like to roll a lot at lower percents?, does your opponent pressure harder when they're losing?). Getting a hit or not is a good place to start, but remember that any given match comes with a number of things that, well, make up any given fight in Melee. A video is just taking all of these human elements and thoughts and giving them back to you to observe and pick apart. The more you can learn from a video about why something, literally ANYTHING, happened the better set you will be the next time you play Melee.
Why you got hit or got a hit is just a simple starting point usually. =)
@M2K: You view lasers incorrectly and over-respect shield pressure.
unknown522
Some guy
For that writeup I made, you can avoid getting punished by simply doing a ledge WD. I'm pretty sure you know that though.
Ledge WD -> u-tilt is pretty **** as sheik. I sometimes get caught by it vs KK. It's one of my most feared things because if he hits me and doesn't mess up, I am almost guaranteed to lose a stock for that (as a spacie or course). He actually catches Raynex with it a lot. But Raynex does play kinda careless in general
No prob. Just trying to help out.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I told kevin this like...
at least 2 months ago when he was talking about how to use double shine.
no respect.
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
The only reason it works in the first place is because no one ever bothers to recognize that as an option. Stick with what's solid I suppose, but gimmicks are part of the game as well.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
been doing that silly double shine waveland for ages now, mostly because before i couldn't do them both grounded, so i just went to a plat and worked off that instead
stopNstart
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2010
- Messages
- 228
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
lord is dope
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Lord: the guy who doesn't go to any tourneys for a few years, randomly shows up at a few and demolishes everybody not named Shroomed, gets 3rd on the next Norcal PR update, and then vanishes again.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
wow i did not know he got 3rd on the norcal pr, nuts.
who all did he beat?
who all did he beat?
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
Yeah, check the April 18 update. I don't remember all of the good wins he had, but they included HMW and SFAT and most of the other top players there, IIRC; he was getting 2nd at every tourney he went to behind Dajuan that period. Since that period, he's only gone to one tournament at which he actually did kind of poorly. Norcal is weird.
Jasou
Smash Ace
Lord is.... really good. I want side b combos.
TheZhuKeeper
Smash Champion
Random Asian Falco mains man.
Lord has actually been playing about as long as I have. I actually lost to him in tourny when I first started, never got a chance to even up the set count =(
The problem with the shine -> shine -> waveland is the other Falco can just jump oos and shine -> waveland after the first Falco's shine. I actually feel like the Mango thing doesn't really position you that well, it just seems safe.
Alright I'm just gonna have to test this lol I've never even heard of that being possible.
Can you elaborate on why Mango's thing isn't safe or how much leeway there is in jumping out?
Can you elaborate on why Mango's thing isn't safe or how much leeway there is in jumping out?
Pi
Smash Hero
"it just seems safe"
lol
lol
Mew2King
King of the Mews
mango is NOT gonna react to that and punish it right away no way
Warhawk
Smash Lord
Yea but then is only Fox and Falco able to punish it? And if they guess wrong about you going to do a shine-waveland and try to punish then they have shine-wavelanded themselves and now the pressurer is still in the position to capitalize by using the same countering technique, right?