PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Sinji]

u guys should be learning how to falco ditto since that's what a lot of the game is now

I agree 100%. Falco dittos is the real test for any falco main.

 

[Niko45]

Aside from all the cattiness going on, what dfox is saying as far as shifting gears and doing a regular tech chase once you see the inward DI is not the same as the m2k frame trap dthrow dtilt. You must dtilt IMMEDIATELY if you still want to regrab tech roll inward. There is no room to be judging DI ahead of time/hesitating with the dtilt.

I also don't understand how sliding on to the edge is the Marth player's fault, since it's DI dependent. Basically, if you're ruling out ANY spacing where they can't slide to the edge and where even with the most outward DI they are forced to tech on stage, you're limiting the area where this trap actually works (like, if you try this too far inward on stage a tech away can now be used to escape the dtilt/or the dtilt may not even push off stage). So basically if you're going to rule out spacings closer to the edge, where sliding off is possible, then this "trap" becomes only relevant at an increasingly specific spot, and therefore much much more situational.

 

[Strong Badam]

leffen i dont care what newbs think. Most all the mbr is stupid, but at least not as bad as the bbr

u calling me stupid jason???

 

[Winston]

And I just tested this out in AR btw, guess who's right

How big of a frame window was there to grab at the maximum horizontal spacing? I'm pretty interested in the AR breakdown, cause we can't really figure it out exactly just from the frame data

 

[genkaku]

Super TSA bros melee

 

[Druggedfox]

Aside from all the cattiness going on, what dfox is saying as far as shifting gears and doing a regular tech chase once you see the inward DI is not the same as the m2k frame trap dthrow dtilt. You must dtilt IMMEDIATELY if you still want to regrab tech roll inward. There is no room to be judging DI ahead of time/hesitating with the dtilt.

I also don't understand how sliding on to the edge is the Marth player's fault, since it's DI dependent. Basically, if you're ruling out ANY spacing where they can't slide to the edge and where even with the most outward DI they are forced to tech on stage, you're limiting the area where this trap actually works (like, if you try this too far inward on stage a tech away can now be used to escape the dtilt/or the dtilt may not even push off stage). So basically if you're going to rule out spacings closer to the edge, where sliding off is possible, then this "trap" becomes only relevant at an increasingly specific spot, and therefore much much more situational.

I never once said that it's something to be used in every situation, or that its universal. In fact, I was suggesting that there are many such *situational* coverages that are really really good, and being familiar enough with the best option in each situation is one of the things that sets m2k apart as a player.

I'd be interested in the frame data on the dtilt trap

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

leffen drama is always so fun to read

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

in case everyone missed it, the dthrow dtilt trap was just an example... idk why people are actually arguing whether there is an escape or not. Everything in this game has an escape.

 

[Deleted member]

in case everyone missed it, the dthrow dtilt trap was just an example... idk why people are actually arguing whether there is an escape or not. Everything in this game has an escape.

No you're thinking of Brawl. We try to avoid that game.

 

[Niko45]

I'd be interested in the frame data on the dtilt trap

Me too actually.

 

[leffen]

oh strong baaaad

 

[Roboturner]

I feel like I make such nubby mistakes when I let a sheik crouch cancel me and let them jab/tilt me up until like 30%. Is it best to just back up and space a bit and then punish her move?

 

[GOTM]

yo pp, i just read a couple of your longer posts that you link on the op.

good stuff. i like the way you explain things, lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mogwai:
I'm not gonna discuss this here, we have a thread in the MBR and Fox outperforms Falco by a fair bit currently (no top fox vs top falco have been played recently that a falco has won). If you just read the thread you can also see that pretty much everyone except Unknown522 (who thinks it and Fox-Marth is 4-6 for fox...) thinks Falco is both worse and that he loses in the matchup.

I think Falco beats Fox in the matchup. I'd wager I can find more people in MBR that agree with me on that one. I'm not sure I'd get a majority, but to act like the Foxes are clearly the winning character unanimously is... silly. There's also support for it being an even or near dead even MU. So... yeah.

Also, I'm confused. I don't actually remember the last time a Fox player (any Fox player) beat either Mango's Falco or Dr. Peepee's Falco in tournament. I dislike using PvP records like this because it fails to consider matchup comfort, experience, and other nonsense like that but if we're going to do it that way... find me a set where the top Falcos have lost to a top Fox. A recent one.

 

[JPOBS]

I've made the argument ages ago:

historically speaking, Falcos players have dominated the head to head vs Fox players.

Either the falco players have just always been better than the fox players (possible I guess) or falco objectively wins the matchup (more likely)

One may not personally feel this way due to their own experiences (I don't even fully believe falco > fox), but its hard to go against the evidence.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I feel like I make such nubby mistakes when I let a sheik crouch cancel me and let them jab/tilt me up until like 30%. Is it best to just back up and space a bit and then punish her move?

Well you can Dair her and beat the CC but grabbing or spacing or delaying a move then shielding are all good tactics(though there are more) vs CC'ing.

yo pp, i just read a couple of your longer posts that you link on the op.

good stuff. i like the way you explain things, lol

Haha thanks man. =)

 

[Winston]

I've made the argument ages ago:

historically speaking, Falcos players have dominated the head to head vs Fox players.

Either the falco players have just always been better than the fox players (possible I guess) or falco objectively wins the matchup (more likely)

One may not personally feel this way due to their own experiences (I don't even fully believe falco > fox), but its hard to go against the evidence.

Which matches are you guys talking about? PC beating m2k? sure, but he had to switch to fox to beat KDJ. Jman/Lucky vs. Zhu/pre-ascension PP has been a pretty tight battle in the past. Currently, PP and Mango are just too far ahead of Fox mains. Obviously this doesn't support Fox winning the matchup, but I also strongly feel that this body of evidence doesn't support Falco winning the matchup either in any meaningful way.

... I feel like I've made this exact post before but I forgot what people answered me with so here it is again.

 

[JPOBS]

I'm thinking of things like how shiz beat every fox around for years. and yea pc vs m2k

which pc vs kdj are u talkin about?

 

[Mogwai]

MLG Vegas Grand Finals.

 

[JPOBS]

ah. can't find the set on youtube for whatever reason. did pc start falco then switch? or fox dittos all te way?

 

[Niko45]

... I feel like I've made this exact post before but I forgot what people answered me with so here it is again.

Smashboards in a nutshell

 

[Mogwai]

ah. can't find the set on youtube for whatever reason. did pc start falco then switch? or fox dittos all te way?

WINNERS

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[yt]KSMxvkq6X04[/yt]


GRAND FINALS (I think they did set continuation for this but I'm not sure)

[yt]XKf3Op79poc[/yt]

[yt]_O8_jWRmlq8[/yt]

[yt]kZAMKmDyQF4[/yt]

[yt]fAjW_e3A6Tk[/yt]

[yt]FjNvBxb9vTk[/yt]

[yt]F-N5eyus-mc[/yt]

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Lmao Jason I was being sarcastic. Top level players seem to handle 99% of Falcos just fine so either it's a player thing(Mango, Zhu sometimes, and I) are just good and would do well anyway(which Mango has proven and maybe I'll prove eventually), or those other Falcos aren't doing something right.

Wasn't actually calling out your Falco. XD

Yeahhhhhhhhhhhh sometimes!

 

[Cactuar]

I beat Mango's Falco in tournament with Fox.

But he takes it easy on me cuz we homeys and I'm terrible. <3

 

[JPOBS]

cool, thanks mogwai

 

[DoH]

Other than Cactuar being an outlier, I feel like the last time a top Fox beat a top Falco was Lucky over PP at Pound 4, which was a year and a half ago and started out with Lucky getting 4 stocked...

 

[Strong Badam]

oh strong baaaad

dthrow dtilt?
on what character?

 

[Veetaak]

dthrow dtilt?
on what character?

I think they are talking about Marth vs Falco

 

[crush]

i think theyre talking about marth vs fox because d throw d tilt trap doesnt really work vs falco

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeahhhhhhhhhhhh sometimes!

Basically whenever you decide to train lol. XD

<3 Zhu you're legit.

 

[Walt]

PP do you have a comprehensive list of who is legit, who is not legit, and who is perceived as legit but like, totally isn't.

 

[JPOBS]

im more interested in seeing a list like that from s2j, g$ or anyone on wc, or tristate.

those cats are cut throat, no word minicing, f*** n****s feelings!

 

[Strong Badam]

I think they are talking about Marth vs Falco

o
i'll make GIFs later

 

[crush]

o
i'll make GIFs later

Stop copying Magus >_>

 

[BornToPoop92]

Don't **** with Mogwai, he's a real G.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i forgot/never realized how high of a level PC and KDJ were playing in that set. I watched those games so many times i have the scores and stages memorized, but that was before i had even approached seeing high level through my own eyes. I feel KDJ's fox that day could stand a chance vs any falco today, even mango or pp's. KDJ dropped some things i would consider guaranteed today, but his reads and mixups were incredible as well as his follow ups at key times.

 

[JPOBS]

i forgot/never realized how high of a level PC and KDJ were playing in that set. I watched those games so many times i have the scores and stages memorized, but that was before i had even approached seeing high level through my own eyes. I feel KDJ's fox that day could stand a chance vs any falco today, even mango or pp's. KDJ dropped some things i would consider guaranteed today, but his reads and mixups were incredible as well as his follow ups at key times.

i agree.

maybe not so much on the " could stand a chance vs mango/pp" part, cuz who really knows how a hypothetical would play out. but definitively on the part about mixups. some of then stuff he did i was not expecting at all (like shine spiking weird angles) and inspired me to try a few things.

 

[tarheeljks]

Other than Cactuar being an outlier, I feel like the last time a top Fox beat a top Falco was Lucky over PP at Pound 4, which was a year and a half ago and started out with Lucky getting 4 stocked...

i think jman and lucky beat zhu at don't go down there jeff. i assume zhu went falco, but i don't remember. saw them play some crazy fox dittos but i think those were friendlies

 

[FoxLisk]

Stop copying Magus >_>

dont listen to this kid. keep copying magus!

 

[Lightsyde]

Other than Cactuar being an outlier, I feel like the last time a top Fox beat a top Falco was Lucky over PP at Pound 4, which was a year and a half ago and started out with Lucky getting 4 stocked...

Jman also 2-0'd PP at Apex.
Jman has beaten Chops and Zhu a couple random times in the last few months (I think.)
PP vs Colbol at the last Tipped off was trading 3 stocks back and forth with PP winning game 3, crazzzzy set though.

/random