PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Fågelholken]

They both 3-0'd Zhu.


Jman beat Dr PP at Apex I believe.

Jman usually beats a LOT of good Falco players.


Just my two cents, for what they're worth, about comparing Falco and Fox players. (Nothing?)

I think that comparing top Falco players vs top Fox players isn't really a fair comparison atm. The top Falco players are Dr PP and Mango, and they are by far two of the best players in the world. And they themselves have shown better results with Fox than most Fox mains.

Dr PP's Fox took a set off of M2K which I've never seen Jman do in his entire career or any other Fox for that matter. His Fox is incredibly solid, and he's said himself he goes pretty much even with Hbox's Puff in friendlies. (I think I remember that correctly. Otherwise he can correct me)

Mango himself went even with Armada with Fox and beat Hungrybox convincingly. Hbox beats Jman and most other Foxes flawlessly. And his Fox can go even with PP's Falco, which just shows you that the matchup is far more even than the results make it out to be.

Besides, they're both amazing with other characters, being able to beat almost everyone with their non-mains. (PP hasn't done it as much, but there's no doubt that he could IMO)


The "lesser" top Falcos? Well, I've never ever seen them make a fool out of a player like Jman. He usually beats every Falco but Dr PP and Mango. Colbol takes sets from Shiz and seems to go even with him most of the time.


All in all, I think the dominant Falco players are just better players at this time!

 

[leffen]

Silent wolf beat Sion, Zgetto beat me.

What wins has Falco got over top fox players recently except the most recent jman vs zhu (Jman was rusty as hell but no johns, pun intended). Fox did so much better at G2 and P5(cept PP) that the falco's didnt get to face the top fox's.

I think using such overall even results is just stupid. If we were to value success so highly then why isnt Peach way above Jigglypuff in the tierlist?
Jigglypuff and Peach both have their 1 outlier (Armada/Hbox) but not only does Armada generally outperform Hbox, the other peach mains beat the other puff mains results so bad it isnt even funny.

 

[Fågelholken]

Hey Leffen. Any tournaments coming up in Sweden? I would love to play with you guys, there's no one to play here in Karlstad!

 

[Divinokage]

Any other Fox? Did you forget KDJ and PC already? =/

 

[Bl@ckChris]

armada outperforms hbox with...young link.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Silent wolf beat Sion, Zgetto beat me.

Oh, sorry, I thought we were using high level players.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i agree.

maybe not so much on the " could stand a chance vs mango/pp" part, cuz who really knows how a hypothetical would play out. but definitively on the part about mixups. some of then stuff he did i was not expecting at all (like shine spiking weird angles) and inspired me to try a few things.

well i would definitely give the metagame edge to PP or mango, but they couldn't simply out mindgame someone like KDJ and KDJ is pretty adaptive so... I like to think about something trail says all the time about this game, "its new people using the same old tricks". I guess thats just one phrase I like to focus on for his whole mentality of "the old stuff still works". I'm not really trying to turn this into a "07 KDJ vs 2011 PP" discussion, but i think its fair to use the term "stand a chance". Maybe it would be better to say "put up a fight".

For me its really weird to watch that set now. Like i said in my last post, i watched that set hundreds of times. I had it on my zune and at my first job i would sit and watch videos on it during down time (~2 hours a day collectively). This was long before I made my competitive transformation, so it might as well have been simply entertainment even though i tried to memorize everything that happened. Looking back now is very strange because I do many of the same things KDJ does tactically and strategically, but other than dropping combos in places or not reacting fast enough, I think KDJ was playing the matchup better than I play it now. And that means a lot to me, since i pride myself in knowledge of the match-up (for example, i doubt kels will ever go falco against me in tourney again).

 

[Strong Badam]

dthrow dtilt frame trap: basically falco/fox are vulnerable for at least 6 frames regardless of what you do and properly timed dtilt covers tech away, tech in place, and land, while turnaround grab gets the 20 frames of vulnerability that teching in gives. only things that escape are properly spaced tech away, tech in place, and land to where you go on the ledge. sometimes you can be hit tho on tech in place depending on dtilt timing.
making GIFs is dumb when there are 2 cases of decision making making like 8 different possibilities and the slide-off things are annoying to document

 

[Fågelholken]

Any other Fox? Did you forget KDJ and PC already? =/

If that is directed to me, when I said PP was the only Fox to beat M2K, I of course meant in recent times. Forgot to add that, sorry, but thought it was pretty self explanatory. M2K hasn't always been as good as he is today, and for the last couple of years no Fox has come close to beating him.

Though Lucky did beat him in pools at G2. But that's just... Odd. Honestly wouldn't expect that to ever happen again. Lucky is awesome but, M2K just slays Fox.

 

[Strong Badam]

how quaint, player vs. player discussions in a character vs. character debate.

 

[Max?]

On the topic of Fox's beating Falco's, both Jman and Eggm had Zhu's number for every Tristate tournament this past summer EXCEPT for Zhu's last appearance at the No Johns in August, where not only did he beat them, but won the whole tournament (beating M2k in WF and then splitting in GF).

Personally I still think it's something like Falco >= Fox (or 55:45 or whatever arbitrary assessment you want to put down), but just stating some facts.

 

[Mogwai]

On the topic of Fox's beating Falco's, both Jman and Eggm had Zhu's number for every Tristate tournament this past summer EXCEPT for Zhu's last appearance at the No Johns in August, where not only did he beat them, but won the whole tournament (beating M2k in WF and then splitting in GF).

Personally I still think it's something like Falco >= Fox (or 55:45 or whatever arbitrary assessment you want to put down), but just stating some facts.

<insert johns about how Zhu wasn't prepared at all all summer here>

there's plenty of anecdotal evidence either way, it's in everyone's best interest to just accept it as even with possible wiggle room in either direction since I don't think the community can agree to anything more than that.

 

[genkaku]

I'm ****ing always getting grabbed.
How do I DI sheik's dthrow? I get punished for everything I try, so is it just DI behind and try to minimize damage?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Uh you have a Puff picture and character icon so do you play puff orrrr someone else?

 

[Mogwai]

I would assume he plays Falco since he's asking here and his Melee icon is Falco. How are you getting grabbed? I mean, yea, when you get grabbed, you just try to DI and tech in a way that won't just be dash attack -> fair -> dead, but I think the bigger question is why are you getting grabbed?

 

[genkaku]

I would assume he plays Falco since he's asking here and his Melee icon is Falco. How are you getting grabbed? I mean, yea, when you get grabbed, you just try to DI and tech in a way that won't just be dash attack -> fair -> dead, but I think the bigger question is why are you getting grabbed?

yeah, falco question
I get grabbed during shield pressure a lot because my spacing on shields isn't so great yet. I'm working on that. Otherwise at stupid times because I like to sit in my shield.
Not getting grabbed is by far the weakest part of my game as a whole.

 

[Dr Peepee]

yeah, falco question
I get grabbed during shield pressure a lot because my spacing on shields isn't so great yet. I'm working on that. Otherwise at stupid times because I like to sit in my shield.
Not getting grabbed is by far the weakest part of my game as a whole.

Well then, DI'ing Sheik's Dthrow is definitely all about changing it up. If you DI the same way then the Sheik can get into the habit of following you a certain distance and reacting to all of your options from there every time. Just mix up where you DI+your techs+whether you tech or not(SDI up if you miss it!) to keep Sheik thrown off. DI'ing away and teching away is always really solid but so is teching in place due to shine. Keeping those things in mind can be a good starting point. Also don't DI in at higher percents because I think Sheik can Ftilt or worse off of that.

Well if you delay your aerials more then you shouldn't get grabbed so much during shield pressure, but I guess it would depend on when you get grabbed once that starts happening.

Let's see, if you always shield after Sheik Fairs your shield then she could go straight into grab or jab into grab. Mashing shield grab beats her grab I think and if you hold down and mash A then you could probably CC Dtilt the jab since you will have dropped your shield and would immediately CC punish before Sheik could do anything.


Other than that, you just have to recognize when you're holding shield too long. Usually, you find out when you get grabbed. So if you see that you're getting grabbed for shielding too much, then you should expect grab after so many seconds in shield and start rolling/spotdodging/aerial'ing OOS/FH'ing is an option too I suppose. It's just remembering when and why you got grabbed and being able to recognize the situation(s) again next time it comes up.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik's follows are supposed to be all-powerful, omnipotent, etc. if you actually get caught by her. A few tricks though:

1. If she likes to up smash and/or guess techs, mostly tech roll.

2. Learn where you can edgecancel the down throw to fall off the lip of the stage and grab the edge.

3. Non-tech and hold up at like 42 to beat jab resets. You can also beat jab resets at 0-41 with an SDI.

4. Tech stand shine ***** if they seem to be doing it off reaction but suck at hitting the tech stand. DI behind them or in a way that makes it ambiguous as to whether you'll land in front or behind them.

5. Even with all this, the focus should be more on "not getting grabbed" rather than "what do I do when I supposed to die?"

 

[Mogwai]

on KK's 1. if she likes to dash attack, mostly tech in place.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If she likes to dash attack, learn how to ground tech it until about 60% or so and then shine her for free combo/setup/damage.

 

[Mogwai]

yea, but after 60 you dead when she hits you with dash attack out of tech roll animation.

 

[Bones0]

What about CCing into Shines vs. Sheik's dash attack? Could I just tech roll away to bait the dash attack and then CC it (obviously not as a fool proof solution, but just as an anticipation so I don't get combo'd into fair).

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nah you can get boost grabbed for starters.

But you can't CC during the tech animation(at least part of it I think).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

you can ASI down and then tech/not get launched

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

On the topic of Fox's beating Falco's, both Jman and Eggm had Zhu's number for every Tristate tournament this past summer EXCEPT for Zhu's last appearance at the No Johns in August, where not only did he beat them, but won the whole tournament (beating M2k in WF and then splitting in GF).

Personally I still think it's something like Falco >= Fox (or 55:45 or whatever arbitrary assessment you want to put down), but just stating some facts.

Not true.

Eggm and I only played twice. The first time I was up 2-1 and came back the next two games (I had leads in both games), so even though he won, it was extremely close. The next set we had I 3-0ed him. I also beat him at Sudden Death, not No Johns I played m2k at. Either way, I wouldn't call that him having my number!

Jman and I were the same. The first time I played him I was up 2-1 and lost (I had leads in both games too) so it was close. The next set he won 3-1, I beat him 3-0, he beats me 3-0, and then I beat him 2-1. Jman has a slight lead in games and is up one set on me overall.





I think Fox / Falco is pretty even. I can see Fox having more / better options but Falco having a simpler / dumber game. Not really sure who wins but it's close enough where it doesn't matter.

 

[Pi]

Barring playing against the highest level players in the nation

what do you think is the fastest way to improve as a player?

I'm starting to doubt just playing as much as you can, after a certain point.

It might just be me though, I think I would do better to study and analyze my (or others) matches, draw a lot of ideas, and hone them individually on my own time, then test them against other players.

Find out how certain players get baited, maybe some predictable patters they have, spot dodges, OoS actions, things like that, make notes of all those things and then play against people, cause when I'm in a match...idk, I just find it hard to do all that actively in a match, maybe it would be easier if I went in with a # of options to be on the look out for

 

[Walt]

I would like to play multiple people just 1v1 for a couple hours at a time. Learn where my biggest weaknesses are as they'd ideally be getting exploited by multiple people. It'd help me see where I need to fix my game.

 

[TheSaudiMizer]

I miss seeing your falco Dr. PP. You need to bust it out sometime soon.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

it'll come out at ROM4

 

[Dr Peepee]

I miss seeing your falco Dr. PP. You need to bust it out sometime soon.

You will see him soon. =)



I'll respond to the other posts after the tourney tonight/Sunday.

 

[KirbyKaze]

yea, but after 60 you dead when she hits you with dash attack out of tech roll animation.

I concur. Therefore I fully endorse learning how to ground tech > shine on dash attack (and other launchers) in all applicable situations to make building damage as annoying as possible.

 

[Bones0]

Can you ground tech Marth's dash attack? I've never payed attention to teching moves that launch you... I had better get on that.

 

[Winston]

Yeah, you definitely can, though idk the percent range. Also Fox's dash attack up to at least like 90. sigh...

 

[Deleted member]

fox's shine > dash attack > upsmash kill is basic flavor goodness.

 

[FoxLisk]

Can you ground tech Marth's dash attack? I've never payed attention to teching moves that launch you... I had better get on that.

yeah but if he tips it you stop being able to very low.

 

[Fågelholken]

PP, what is the best display of Falco play that you've ever seen? Like, the way that person was playing (it's okay, you can count yourself ;D) was according to you the most solid Falco play up to date. Whether it was just for the time being, like someone was just on a sick roll, or during a whole tournament. Recorded or not, friendlies or not.

 

[Rubyiris]

Hey guys. Got 4th. Lost to OkamiBW in swiss, beat him in bracket. Lost to Tai in winners (was one hit away from 2-0ing him, finger slipped on the c-stick due to nerves, and got ***** game 3.) Lost to Silly Kyle in losers after beating him in winners. Really put into perspective how weak my mental fortitude is.

Vids will be up whenever Tai gets to it.

 

[Deleted member]

Not true.

Eggm and I only played twice. The first time I was up 2-1 and came back the next two games (I had leads in both games), so even though he won, it was extremely close. The next set we had I 3-0ed him. I also beat him at Sudden Death, not No Johns I played m2k at. Either way, I wouldn't call that him having my number!

Jman and I were the same. The first time I played him I was up 2-1 and lost (I had leads in both games too) so it was close. The next set he won 3-1, I beat him 3-0, he beats me 3-0, and then I beat him 2-1. Jman has a slight lead in games and is up one set on me overall.





I think Fox / Falco is pretty even. I can see Fox having more / better options but Falco having a simpler / dumber game. Not really sure who wins but it's close enough where it doesn't matter.

BOTTOM LINE

ZHU ***** eggm's BICH AzszZZZ

GJ

 

[ETWIST51294]

Lmao..

Gotta love drunk johnny.

 

[Bones0]

PP, what is the best display of Falco play that you've ever seen? Like, the way that person was playing (it's okay, you can count yourself ;D) was according to you the most solid Falco play up to date. Whether it was just for the time being, like someone was just on a sick roll, or during a whole tournament. Recorded or not, friendlies or not.

Pound 5: Dr. Peepee vs. Armada
Genesis 2: Mango vs. Mew2King

Those are my favorites.