booshk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 14, 2006
- Messages
- 1,104
LOL biggest trolls.Matt07 is insane with Roy. A few months ago on a livestream I saw him consistently 3 stocking Sions falco.
and cool vid 0Room
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PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Dr Peepee
- Start date
and cool vid 0Room
Vaccine
Smash Journeyman
alright so i shffl nair -> shine -> fadeaway nair on marths shield then he wds in and grabs me. what could i have done after the fadeaway nair?
Mokumo
Smash Ace
Why not do a empty sh instead of your fadeaway nair and react to his wd? might not work every time but I think that'll start you Off right
Veetaak
Smash Lord
Just try doing different kinds of pressure each time so that he can't predict anything.
Vaccine
Smash Journeyman
after i shine he will wd out of shield -> f smash or shield grab or just wait. he doesnt try to punish my shield pressure with aerials. idk how/if i can take advantage of that?
is nair -> shine -> fadeaway nair safe?
is nair -> shine -> fadeaway nair safe?
mers
Smash Ace
Nothing is safe. If he's WDing after the shine, just shinegrab him. Or doubleshine him (doesn't even have to be a perfect doubleshine). Or my personal favorite, SHL out of shine then follow.
Shinegrab is probably most effective though.
Shinegrab is probably most effective though.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
you could probably fsmash lol.
Based on this situation, then jab or Dtilt would be pretty good and potentially set up combos.
It's prety safe but you have to be wary of WD OOS towards you. Jab and Dtilt tend to stuff those, but those options might lose to aerials OOS if Marth can get them out fast enough(not sure if he can).
If he's just waiting in shield, then grab him so he feels like he has to do something. Laser grab or shine grab(or laser/approach shine grab) are too good lol.
If he's WD'ing away OOS then you should play to stuff that(aerial early to catch it or laser in shield pressure to catch it, but there are movement tricks you could potentially do as well to cover that). Mix up your shield pressure timings so he doesn't have a good idea of when he can WD OOS and will have to guess. You have to make his life hard when you shield pressure and understand the psychology behind how to make it scary. Just keep him guessing, basically. =)
Wake
Smash Master
This is soo coool!!!
Vaccine
Smash Journeyman
thanks a bunch! i appreciate it.
last question. if i were to try to shine grab marth would he b able to shield grab me before i grabbed him?
mers
Smash Ace
No. Not unless you're very slow at jumping out of your shine.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Double shines > WD OoS
You can also just WD out of your shine and either shine/aerial (if you guessed which way he would WD and WD'd the same way) or dash back (usually with a laser) to keep yourself protect from a rogue fsmash... they go SO FAR and when your laser hits him a frame too late... well... you know how it is...
You can also just WD out of your shine and either shine/aerial (if you guessed which way he would WD and WD'd the same way) or dash back (usually with a laser) to keep yourself protect from a rogue fsmash... they go SO FAR and when your laser hits him a frame too late... well... you know how it is...
Winston
Smash Master
I think if your shine is super stale and he has better timing than you, he can. But unlikely
It's a fairly tight timing but unless your shine is pretty staled(hit with it a lot in one of your stocks) then usually you shouldn't be getting grabbed.
I would never waveshine towards the opponent in pressure unless it was late in a match/set and I had conditioned them very well. It just doesn't seem as safe to me but the reward which could be a kill move or kill setup is pretty great so I guess that's a neat thing to do in that regard.Double shines > WD OoS
You can also just WD out of your shine and either shine/aerial (if you guessed which way he would WD and WD'd the same way) or dash back (usually with a laser) to keep yourself protect from a rogue fsmash... they go SO FAR and when your laser hits him a frame too late... well... you know how it is...
I'd prefer to waveshine back though since they'd have a smaller shield plus I could approach again. That threat+the pressure I already applied is very powerful I find.
Also double shine complicates everything which is great.
Falco Post!
I've done a lot of writing in my big posts about Marth or about Melee in general or just me, but I haven't written about Falco in eons. While I'll be writing from more of a player perspective(my own), I think that I will still be saying helpful Falco-specific things. Maybe I'll end with something more applicable to everyone, I haven't thought about it lol.
So I decided that my Marth stint needed to take a break(though I still play that guy in training more than my Fox or Falcon). ROM4 and Apex will be here before I know it, and the last thing I want to do before then is stress about any improvements I COULD HAVE made. My personal goal is to have all of the new age(and some old, lol) technical things mastered or at least ready to use on call by the time ROM4 is a few weeks away, so I can focus on fine tuning my actual strategies involving the techniques and expand my game overall rather than divide my time/focus between tech practice and strategy evolution.
The techniques I am working on are:
edgedashes, platform cancels, double shines, shield drops, side B cancels....among others, but these are the bigger ones. I think I'll speak a little about each and how I think about them related to Falco.
Edge dashes(do I call these things edge dashes or wavelands btw? always been iffy on this bs lmao)- It's not good enough to get these right anymore. I want to start reversing momentum and taking stage back with this technique. So I try to get the edge dashes which are pretty close to perfect, and my measure of that is Falco not making his airdodge noise. It has a way to go, but it's improving.
Eventually, I'd like to firstly take a note from Azen's book and edge dash Fsmash. Tons of priority out in front of him and probably protected on the vulnerable startup? That man is too smart lol. If someone is closer though, then maybe shines to whatever or jabs or killing dtilts could be favorable? Seems like there's room to experiment there.
Double shines- right now, this technique is comprising the majority of my effort lol. I do not naturally understand how to make my fingers do this at all, but it's been about a week of training every day for an hour or two and I think I'll have it fairly soon. My biggest problem with this technique is that it requires a ton of focus for me, so I may have to use it sparingly at first until it becomes second nature. This is only in training too, so I have a ways to go on actual application. I recognize the increasing importance this technique has though, as everyone is getting more and more adept at recognizing and exploiting the holes in Falco's shield pressure. I have to stay ahead of the game or at least on par with it in this case haha.
Double shines stuff everything that everyone tries to punish after regular shines(grabs, aerials, WDs, empty hops I guess lol). This seems like a crucial mixup because it forces your opponent to second guess all of their usually instinctual punishes OOS upon seeing a shine(most people still delay aerials such as myself so acting after the shine is more common, but that may be changing these days, I'm not really sure). The threat of this technique alone allows standard shield pressure to once again become useable, not to mention all of the regular shield pressure you can do out of double shines anyway haha.
Shield drops- Not much playing around with this yet, but I'm really bad at it lmao. I'd only use it during pressure though(not out of dashes) because I'd rather not complicate my inputs any more than I think is necessary. Sometimes I can get 6ish of these in a row on my own, and sometimes my lightshield breaks while I'm wiggling it around for 5 seconds lol. This is definitely worth learning though, so once double shines are perfected I'll at least focus on this a little more.
First of all, I'd like to say that Mango didn't mean to do that shield drop in my WGF set vs him lmao. Been wanting to say that for a while now, so I hope it becomes common knowledge after this point. <.<
Anyway, shield dropping out of pressure, while I don't totally understand the frame data behind it, seems incredible and may be just the technique needed to swing the metagame towards smarter play once again(since shield pressure value, at least on platforms, would be greatly diminished). I also think that it could emphasize platform-focused play, since you can only shield drop on platforms. For Falco, this means shield pressure on platforms is less useful than before. More importantly, it means he can avoid being trapped as easily on platforms when he gets forced into shield there(either by being thrown/hit up there or by the threat of an attack when Falco is moving around). Falco could also perform very well in a platform-centric metagame due to his laser potential and control(double lasers could cover a high and low area or the important heights of a higher or level platform area that is great for control or helping Falco approach).
*This is all kinda off the top of my head, so feel free to be skeptical. I'd love to hear other ideas on what I'm saying. =)
Side B cancels- I learned I had to wait a second to get the shorten, but I can't get it close to consistently without spamming B at that time, but even then it's not successful a large percentage of the time. I don't want to mash because I think tensing up will give my intentions away to my opponent, but maybe I tense up too when I side B anyway? I heard you could mash A after you side B to trick your opponent, but I'm not sure if I could remember to commit to that during matches. Maybe it's worth it though?
Canceling side B going to the edge allows you to avoid weird stuff that normally kills side Bs. Spacies' Dsmashes can be avoided by a lower side B, and you can actually grab the edge a little lower than regular side Bs with the cancel. PC also did that high one to grab the edge, and that's a real guessing game it seems, especially when most people are caught offguard by strange side B tricks as it is. That's a fast move LOL.
This is pretty good for starters I believe. I feel kinda lame not talking about Falco much in my Falco thread so hopefully this helps make it more legit haha. =p
I've done a lot of writing in my big posts about Marth or about Melee in general or just me, but I haven't written about Falco in eons. While I'll be writing from more of a player perspective(my own), I think that I will still be saying helpful Falco-specific things. Maybe I'll end with something more applicable to everyone, I haven't thought about it lol.
So I decided that my Marth stint needed to take a break(though I still play that guy in training more than my Fox or Falcon). ROM4 and Apex will be here before I know it, and the last thing I want to do before then is stress about any improvements I COULD HAVE made. My personal goal is to have all of the new age(and some old, lol) technical things mastered or at least ready to use on call by the time ROM4 is a few weeks away, so I can focus on fine tuning my actual strategies involving the techniques and expand my game overall rather than divide my time/focus between tech practice and strategy evolution.
The techniques I am working on are:
edgedashes, platform cancels, double shines, shield drops, side B cancels....among others, but these are the bigger ones. I think I'll speak a little about each and how I think about them related to Falco.
Edge dashes(do I call these things edge dashes or wavelands btw? always been iffy on this bs lmao)- It's not good enough to get these right anymore. I want to start reversing momentum and taking stage back with this technique. So I try to get the edge dashes which are pretty close to perfect, and my measure of that is Falco not making his airdodge noise. It has a way to go, but it's improving.
Eventually, I'd like to firstly take a note from Azen's book and edge dash Fsmash. Tons of priority out in front of him and probably protected on the vulnerable startup? That man is too smart lol. If someone is closer though, then maybe shines to whatever or jabs or killing dtilts could be favorable? Seems like there's room to experiment there.
Double shines- right now, this technique is comprising the majority of my effort lol. I do not naturally understand how to make my fingers do this at all, but it's been about a week of training every day for an hour or two and I think I'll have it fairly soon. My biggest problem with this technique is that it requires a ton of focus for me, so I may have to use it sparingly at first until it becomes second nature. This is only in training too, so I have a ways to go on actual application. I recognize the increasing importance this technique has though, as everyone is getting more and more adept at recognizing and exploiting the holes in Falco's shield pressure. I have to stay ahead of the game or at least on par with it in this case haha.
Double shines stuff everything that everyone tries to punish after regular shines(grabs, aerials, WDs, empty hops I guess lol). This seems like a crucial mixup because it forces your opponent to second guess all of their usually instinctual punishes OOS upon seeing a shine(most people still delay aerials such as myself so acting after the shine is more common, but that may be changing these days, I'm not really sure). The threat of this technique alone allows standard shield pressure to once again become useable, not to mention all of the regular shield pressure you can do out of double shines anyway haha.
Shield drops- Not much playing around with this yet, but I'm really bad at it lmao. I'd only use it during pressure though(not out of dashes) because I'd rather not complicate my inputs any more than I think is necessary. Sometimes I can get 6ish of these in a row on my own, and sometimes my lightshield breaks while I'm wiggling it around for 5 seconds lol. This is definitely worth learning though, so once double shines are perfected I'll at least focus on this a little more.
First of all, I'd like to say that Mango didn't mean to do that shield drop in my WGF set vs him lmao. Been wanting to say that for a while now, so I hope it becomes common knowledge after this point. <.<
Anyway, shield dropping out of pressure, while I don't totally understand the frame data behind it, seems incredible and may be just the technique needed to swing the metagame towards smarter play once again(since shield pressure value, at least on platforms, would be greatly diminished). I also think that it could emphasize platform-focused play, since you can only shield drop on platforms. For Falco, this means shield pressure on platforms is less useful than before. More importantly, it means he can avoid being trapped as easily on platforms when he gets forced into shield there(either by being thrown/hit up there or by the threat of an attack when Falco is moving around). Falco could also perform very well in a platform-centric metagame due to his laser potential and control(double lasers could cover a high and low area or the important heights of a higher or level platform area that is great for control or helping Falco approach).
*This is all kinda off the top of my head, so feel free to be skeptical. I'd love to hear other ideas on what I'm saying. =)
Side B cancels- I learned I had to wait a second to get the shorten, but I can't get it close to consistently without spamming B at that time, but even then it's not successful a large percentage of the time. I don't want to mash because I think tensing up will give my intentions away to my opponent, but maybe I tense up too when I side B anyway? I heard you could mash A after you side B to trick your opponent, but I'm not sure if I could remember to commit to that during matches. Maybe it's worth it though?
Canceling side B going to the edge allows you to avoid weird stuff that normally kills side Bs. Spacies' Dsmashes can be avoided by a lower side B, and you can actually grab the edge a little lower than regular side Bs with the cancel. PC also did that high one to grab the edge, and that's a real guessing game it seems, especially when most people are caught offguard by strange side B tricks as it is. That's a fast move LOL.
This is pretty good for starters I believe. I feel kinda lame not talking about Falco much in my Falco thread so hopefully this helps make it more legit haha. =p
Wake
Smash Master
I can't wait to see you in action at ROM and Apex.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I believe (along with a growing number of people) that shield dropping is the next new thing for the metagame. It just moves you from a bad defensive position to a good, offensive position almost immediately. Sure, it's hard to do, but I think it's worth it. That makes a lot of dumb platform shenanigans less effective. I once shield drop naired with Peach, to displace a Falco that was below me. It was suh-weet.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Wow, PP, I can't believe you can't consistently shorten your side-B, such a fundamental thing I wold have thought anyone your skill would have mastered ages ago. Guess theres always stuff to leanr 
If I may make a suggestion, press B immediately after you here the "zing" sound on the side-B start up. This gives you the shortest shorten, and if you want the other lengths, trial and error until you figure it out. But tats the trick I used to learn it initially, eventually it becomes muscle memory like everything else.
If I may make a suggestion, press B immediately after you here the "zing" sound on the side-B start up. This gives you the shortest shorten, and if you want the other lengths, trial and error until you figure it out. But tats the trick I used to learn it initially, eventually it becomes muscle memory like everything else.
Yeah I got by without it before, but I want every edge now haha.
And that trick seems to be what most people suggest but I keep missing it when I try that. I probably just need to practice it more and make sure I'm actually doing it like that haha.
Thanks for the tip though I had legitimately forgotten it again somehow until you suggested it haha. =)
And that trick seems to be what most people suggest but I keep missing it when I try that. I probably just need to practice it more and make sure I'm actually doing it like that haha.
Thanks for the tip though I had legitimately forgotten it again somehow until you suggested it haha. =)
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
for me the most fascinating thing about that peepee post is that there are plenty of falcos who can do those things in their sleep, yet obv cannot hold a candle to peepee. suggests that most of us are practicing/focusing our efforts to improve on the wrong stuff. . .
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Certain perspectives are simply stronger than others, I don't think everyone has the potential to go on top, that would be very odd if that were true.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Hey, so many people think I'm crazy or simply a game character when I think only I can understand my own crazy warrior perspective which definitely enabled me to go very far no doubt about that. But for someone else to understand something like that... I'm not sure.. you gotta be REALLY open minded.
Tirno
Smash Journeyman
I've been playing around with properly adding edgedashing to my game. It's difficult to get perfect, but the payoff would be pretty awesome. I've tested it frame-by-frame, and IIRC, Falco can get up to 14 frames of invulnerability after the completion of the waveland. This means invulnerable shine, as well as invulnerable startup on pretty much all dodges, tilts, smashes, and even running aerials.
I've messed around with double shine, but have been leaning towards just using shinegrab to beat quick OOS options. This is because I discovered that a frame-perfect double shine often whiffs against OOS options since Falco's shine is small and the opponent's hurtbox usually doesn't move forward until the latter part of a grab, WD, up-smash, etc. I'm probably putting too much weight on frame-perfect or near frame-perfect theorycrafting, but it's something to consider, at least.
I've messed around with double shine, but have been leaning towards just using shinegrab to beat quick OOS options. This is because I discovered that a frame-perfect double shine often whiffs against OOS options since Falco's shine is small and the opponent's hurtbox usually doesn't move forward until the latter part of a grab, WD, up-smash, etc. I'm probably putting too much weight on frame-perfect or near frame-perfect theorycrafting, but it's something to consider, at least.
How much leeway is there on the startup of aerials? Like could I be off by, say, 3 frames and still get a Nair out safely?
Won't the double shine catch them before they can move OOS though? I'm asking because I understood that that was why double shine beat a lot of those options and not them being able to move but me catching their not frame-perfect hurtboxes or however one would phrase the scenario you described.
Tirno
Smash Journeyman
Well, a perfectly quick running nair would take 1 frame to dash, 5 to jump, and 4 to nair, so that's a total of 10 frames, so I guess if you lose 4 frames anywhere in this process, you'd have some vulnerability before the nair hitbox came out.
Also, Kal is correct, I was referring to someone trying to doing something immediately after the first shine. The point was that in ideal conditions (Falco being right next his opponent, frame-perfect double shine, and frame-perfect OOS responses from the opponent) double shine still frequently whiffs due to the pushback from the first shine and the shine's low range. Like I said, it probably works better in practice than perfectly running everything frame-by-frame would suggest, but I just figured I'd use shinegrab instead and avoid the issue entirely.
Also, Kal is correct, I was referring to someone trying to doing something immediately after the first shine. The point was that in ideal conditions (Falco being right next his opponent, frame-perfect double shine, and frame-perfect OOS responses from the opponent) double shine still frequently whiffs due to the pushback from the first shine and the shine's low range. Like I said, it probably works better in practice than perfectly running everything frame-by-frame would suggest, but I just figured I'd use shinegrab instead and avoid the issue entirely.
Hm interesting on both counts. I never wanted to make double shine a staple of shield pressure though as it's unwieldly for me technically and there are shield DI problems in addition to the one you mentioned. Double shine is more of a mixup and people trying to punish could possibly hold in after the first shine to punish so maybe there's some accidental shield DI help there? Either way I have my own testing of this tactic to do because I haven't seen it used much but if nothing else this can be a pretty nice mixup once in a while I feel. Obviously I'd have to remember to be very close to the opponent though, but that isn't an impossible feat or anything.
Tirno
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, ledgedash to running nair with invulnerability is probably something that will sadly have to be relegated to TAS videos and the like, but it's fun to think about. I'm still gonna work at other edgedash options and then throw a party when I finally punish someone for trying to jump over an edgehop double laser by instead doing an edgedash to uptilt.
As for double shines, it just seems to me now that shinegrab is a better (or at least more general) solution to the same problem, as long as you don't do it so predictably that your opponent feels comfortable spot-dodging in the middle of shield pressure. But I haven't tried double shine much IRL, so I could be horribly mistaken.
As for double shines, it just seems to me now that shinegrab is a better (or at least more general) solution to the same problem, as long as you don't do it so predictably that your opponent feels comfortable spot-dodging in the middle of shield pressure. But I haven't tried double shine much IRL, so I could be horribly mistaken.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
Shine-grab just seems more practical as well. The only issue I could see arising from shine-grab versus double shine is that Falco's grabs don't reward as much as his shine. But I could be mistaken, as I see lots of Falcos pulling out severe combos from grabs.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
side-b shorten is frame 21-24 IIRC if that helps Kevin
G
genkaku
Guest
lol.
when audio cues fail, just try to count down frames in your head.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
it's what I do
SuperMatt
Smash Champion
forward B shorten is like riding a bike
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
just hit b a lot kevin.
i thought me and smith taught you that already?
i thought me and smith taught you that already?
But if you press B too fast it won't shorten. I never mess up my shortened phantasms so it's all good. Fox's is so slow I sometimes find it hard to shorten his illusion 'cause I'm used to doing it a bit faster with Falco.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Shortens are pretty easy once you get the hang of them
*Shrug*
For Fox I learned by listening for the end of the ding
For Falco I just do it fast <_<
Ledgedash shine is pretty sweet with all the invincibility Falco gets, too bad his Upsmash / running Nair aren't as good / are slower than Fox's but whatever
Playing Falco makes my ledgedashing worse because his wavedash is so slow it screws up my ledgedash timing and his side-b is so fast that I'm usually just too lazy to try
Eh ... whatever they can't react to this side-b from the ledge right ~_~
*Shrug*
For Fox I learned by listening for the end of the ding
For Falco I just do it fast <_<
Ledgedash shine is pretty sweet with all the invincibility Falco gets, too bad his Upsmash / running Nair aren't as good / are slower than Fox's but whatever
Playing Falco makes my ledgedashing worse because his wavedash is so slow it screws up my ledgedash timing and his side-b is so fast that I'm usually just too lazy to try
Eh ... whatever they can't react to this side-b from the ledge right ~_~
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Shortening is just like.... if you could slow down time and watch it move in slow motion, you could easily press b at any of 5 (or is it 4, I never remember) checkpoints. If you press b at that point it shortens to that point...
I never thought the issue was the timing, as much as it is having a good understanding of exactly how fast falco moves, in addition to knowing where the checkpoints are.
Don't mash b >__________>
I never thought the issue was the timing, as much as it is having a good understanding of exactly how fast falco moves, in addition to knowing where the checkpoints are.
Don't mash b >__________>
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Mashing B is terrible.
PP, do you have any vids of you vs a good samus? By that I mean, you are actually paying th matchup and I can learn from it, instead of you just stomping them because you're way better as a player.
or if not, wanna talk about falco vs samus a bit?
PP, do you have any vids of you vs a good samus? By that I mean, you are actually paying th matchup and I can learn from it, instead of you just stomping them because you're way better as a player.
or if not, wanna talk about falco vs samus a bit?