PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[bossa nova ♪]

vs samus


heh-


switch to falcon

 

[GOTM]

I'd like to see PP vs. Plup at ROM if you guys are both going

 

[Lightsyde]

Hey, so many people think I'm crazy or simply a game character when I think only I can understand my own crazy warrior perspective which definitely enabled me to go very far no doubt about that. But for someone else to understand something like that... I'm not sure.. you gotta be REALLY open minded.

In my experience, people generally suck at being open minded about alternative mindsets, especially in this thread, which I find strange because I assumed a lot of the high level players would need a really wide eyed approach to life (and the game) to get so good.

A lot more people have the kind of mindset you label "Warrior" than you might think. They just use different terms and define/explain their mentality differently. It IS a strong perspective for competition and improvement and involves a lot of focus/self discipline. People are quick to dismiss things that they don't immediately understand, even though, with more examination, they'd likely agree with you.

Personally, I understand your posts clearly as they are just descriptions of a personal philosophy developed from life experience applied to a complex game (the physics engine and the metagame combined together). Again, life experience stuff will always sound bogus to people who haven't had similar experiences/don't understand what you mean.

TL;DR Just keep doing your thing.

 

[tarheeljks]

Certain perspectives are simply stronger than others, I don't think everyone has the potential to go on top, that would be very odd if that were true.

was this in response to my post?


edit: if so i think you missed my point, though i don't necessarily disagree w/yours

 

[JPOBS]

theres nothing wrong with having mindsets and stuff, but theres just a different between just saying a bunch of fluff and general mumbo jumbo, and posting useful information.

someone talk about Falco vs samus. and i aint switching to falcon lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

Mashing B is terrible.

PP, do you have any vids of you vs a good samus? By that I mean, you are actually paying th matchup and I can learn from it, instead of you just stomping them because you're way better as a player.

or if not, wanna talk about falco vs samus a bit?

Hmmm guess I'll keep searching for the timing then haha. Thanks for all the input on that. =)

Ummm, if you wanna watch me struggle vs Hugs from Pound 4 you can see that, but I'm pretty awful at that matchup(it's seriously my worst). I'm perfectly fine with discussing it.

All I really know to do vs samus is not go into their shield ever unless I shield after I hit it instead of shine as like a weird up B bait thing. Spacing moves on their shield is apparently the best I can do, in addition to trying to catch them WD'ing OOS. Also I should angle my shield down a lot when they're pressuring so they can't Dtilt/Dsmash gay me. Dair to dair to dair to dair to dair to Samus gonna live anyway but that's a sick combo because she's floaty so not much else works.

That's all I know lol.

I'd like to see PP vs. Plup at ROM if you guys are both going

Guhhhhhhhhhhhhughgghgughghug

I'd like to see how good he is though. =)

 

[Lightsyde]

theres nothing wrong with having mindsets and stuff, but theres just a different between just saying a bunch of fluff and general mumbo jumbo, and posting useful information.

This is exactly what I mean though. If you don't understand what he is saying, you see a bunch of fluff and mumbo jumbo, which is what you seem to be implying. Kage posts meaningful stuff and people disregard it in exactly like you just did ("Oh wtf ever, it's just Kage talking nonsense") when it IS useful information for sculpting a mindset.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

*rolls eyes so hard that the chords snap*

 

[Divinokage]

This is exactly what I mean though. If you don't understand what he is saying, you see a bunch of fluff and mumbo jumbo. Kage posts meaningful stuff and people disregard it in exactly the manner you were insinuating, when it IS useful information for sculpting a mindset.

Maybe I should just say things differently.. though I'm not sure how I would be able to do that. That would be hard for me. lol. I like the fluffy stuff, it adds spice. =P And anyways, it's been a while since I've had the opportunity to do so.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

doesn't samus like demolish falco?

switch to falcon.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't think anyone "demolishes" Falco but it's possible she beats him I suppose?

Most older players would say no just Dair camp on a top platform but I don't know how good that strategy is. I don't really have the patience to pull it off personally so I'd rather learn to fight the character, but maybe that's why it can be said that Falco "loses" to her?

I don't know LOL I never get to play Samus =(

 

[Dobs1007]

I don't think anyone "demolishes" Falco but it's possible she beats him I suppose?

Most older players would say no just Dair camp on a top platform but I don't know how good that strategy is. I don't really have the patience to pull it off personally so I'd rather learn to fight the character, but maybe that's why it can be said that Falco "loses" to her?

I don't know LOL I never get to play Samus =(

I thought there are vids of u playing Hugs in friendlies. I can speak on the matchup from a Samus players prospective if u guys want but I'm not an elite player...

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think anyone "demolishes" Falco but it's possible she beats him I suppose?

Most older players would say no just Dair camp on a top platform but I don't know how good that strategy is. I don't really have the patience to pull it off personally so I'd rather learn to fight the character, but maybe that's why it can be said that Falco "loses" to her?

I don't know LOL I never get to play Samus =(

the idea for platform camping with dairs was used to fight peach because her slow *** second jump sucks. samus herself is quite easy, just get her into the air by any means and accept your free victory. samus is low tier trash in the air. don't ever be in a position to be hit by up B. if you are hit by up B, mash laser and you'll land normally. the laser doesn't come out but you untumble and land faster than she does. and then you can do awful things to her. gay bird feet things.

 

[choknater]

though the two seem to clash sometimes, i think shroomed and kage have very very similar mindsets

my mindset (and my play style... and my characters) is pretty much a DIRECT descendent of chudat's. i'm good at the game, but i can't really keep up when i try to be better than other people with top tier characters. so in order to remedy that, i create my own new and creative strategies using under-used characters (right now, ic's and ylink)

and yeah samus is a bad character LOL

hugs vs falcon is SOOOOO godlike though. like wtf. that matchup is 80-20 falcon

 

[Ørn]

Platform camping is definitely pretty effective vs. Samus since she has very few reliable ways to attack from above her (and she is a slow jumper). Also, she has a hard time challenging well spaced bairs (like a lot of below average characters). For this reason alone, as a Samus player, I'm never ever counterpicking a Falco to DL64 again.

While Samus doesn't have a terrible matchup against the spacies, it's definitely not in her favor, and Falco has a considerably easier time with her than Fox, in my humble opinion. Falco's dair eliminates her crouch cancel game pretty effectively, which is one of the better ways to create an opening (AFAIK, Samus can't even CC dair at 0%)

Samus doesn't suffer as much from lasers as other characters since she can usually get a projectile in between lasers once in a while, but I'm sure proper laser camping is still pretty good (like it is against all characters lol)

The best thing a Samus player can do is condition the opponent to shield a lot (since it's really effective against Samus to just shield most of her attacks and then punish) and then grab a lot. Grabs are ridicolously good against spacies. I realize this is a very general thing that goes for just about any matchup, but it just feels like it makes all the difference in the world in this particular matchup.

I don't know why I'm writing this since I think Falco is a lame *** character, so I hope you guys enjoy my advice.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I thought there are vids of u playing Hugs in friendlies. I can speak on the matchup from a Samus players prospective if u guys want but I'm not an elite player...

Yeah the videos aren't good either I don't think. XD

Sure this is a discussion thread lol. Give it a once-over if you want.

the idea for platform camping with dairs was used to fight peach because her slow *** second jump sucks. samus herself is quite easy, just get her into the air by any means and accept your free victory. samus is low tier trash in the air. don't ever be in a position to be hit by up B. if you are hit by up B, mash laser and you'll land normally. the laser doesn't come out but you untumble and land faster than she does. and then you can do awful things to her. gay bird feet things.

I guess i'm having a harder time beating Nair than I should? Not sure how to handle that move when I get her airborne.

And Samus DIs away after hitting me or edgecancels so they usually are fine or follow up on me.



Edit @ Orn: Guess I'll just space Bairs and approach with Dairs only lol. Not sure what else to do aside from grab sometimes to keep her honest but Samuses are pretty good at reading those since they have to learn how to deal with it because their roll is bad.

 

[JPOBS]

I don't buy the "dair platform camp" idea mostly because:

1. I've never seen a falco try to employ this strategy vs samus, ever. In fact, I don't think I've seen it vs peach even. Its seems like one of those things that people recommend doing because it sounds like a good idea in theory, but its never actually been done. Atleast not to the extent of winning the match. Maybe for a few seconds at a time sure, but I've never seen someone platform dair camp for an entire set and win vs these chars.

2. Her UpB is pretty gay when you're above. I havent played many samus players, but I've played a bit (including some friendlies with hugs), and from what I gather, being above her for any meaningful length of time isn't exactly what I want to be doing.

Umbreon, can you explain the thing about "mash laser and you'll land normally" ? I don't see how mashing B will stop you from needing to tech after being upb'd.

 

[Ørn]

Edit @ Orn: Guess I'll just space Bairs and approach with Dairs only lol. Not sure what else to do aside from grab sometimes to keep her honest but Samuses are pretty good at reading those since they have to learn how to deal with it because their roll is bad.

Yeah it's true, playing Samus does improve your game in some aspects haha.

If you want video as a reference, I think Faab did a pretty good job of "better character"-ing me in the BEASTII bracket. While I haven't watched it in a while, I seem to remember he just put up a good defense for himself (notice how I pretty much got destroyed on DL; never doing that again). I also seem to recall not getting a lot of grab opportunities, but that was probably just me getting outplayed (though I don't think it was that bad)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbIrWe8BqFY

 

[Deleted member]

Umbreon, can you explain the thing about "mash laser and you'll land normally" ? I don't see how mashing B will stop you from needing to tech after being upb'd.

if samus up B's you from a certain height, you can "laser" before you land, it doesn't stun the entire way to the ground, no laser comes out but it's like normal SHL laser landing lag. you have to avoid platforms on the way down because it kills the stun right before that height, but most samus players seem to avoid the platform too and fall through them.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't buy the "dair platform camp" idea mostly because:

1. I've never seen a falco try to employ this strategy vs samus, ever. In fact, I don't think I've seen it vs peach even. Its seems like one of those things that people recommend doing because it sounds like a good idea in theory, but its never actually been done. Atleast not to the extent of winning the match. Maybe for a few seconds at a time sure, but I've never seen someone platform dair camp for an entire set and win vs these chars.

2. Her UpB is pretty gay when you're above. I havent played many samus players, but I've played a bit (including some friendlies with hugs), and from what I gather, being above her for any meaningful length of time isn't exactly what I want to be doing.

Umbreon, can you explain the thing about "mash laser and you'll land normally" ? I don't see how mashing B will stop you from needing to tech after being upb'd.

No one employs the strategy anymore because that's not what the archetype of Falco is anymore. It could still be done potentially, but until someone wants to try it then we don't know how powerful the tactic is.

I think going above Samus at certain heights can be good if you know when to Dair, but I've only heard that and never actually done it.

 

[Deleted member]

No one employs the strategy anymore because that's not what the archetype of Falco is anymore. It could still be done potentially, but until someone wants to try it then we don't know how powerful the tactic is.

I think going above Samus at certain heights can be good if you know when to Dair, but I've only heard that and never actually done it.

Just don't do it. Samus wants you to be above her, it's her most reliable way to gain damage. The camping dair strategy works but it's pretty much ONLY peach and ONLY DL64 as a means to check their most obvious CP choice. It's really nothing more.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah it's true, playing Samus does improve your game in some aspects haha.

If you want video as a reference, I think Faab did a pretty good job of "better character"-ing me in the BEASTII bracket. While I haven't watched it in a while, I seem to remember he just put up a good defense for himself (notice how I pretty much got destroyed on DL; never doing that again). I also seem to recall not getting a lot of grab opportunities, but that was probably just me getting outplayed (though I don't think it was that bad)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbIrWe8BqFY

Seems like Faab used lots of platforms to laser or space Bair. That's a pretty cool idea.

Another way to play it was the way Lambchops did vs IHSB and laser rack damage to 40ish% and then Dair combo to death lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1izwXbV1ac

Edit @ Umbreon: Hmm duly noted.

 

[Mew2King]

i dont think samus beats falco <_<

samus is really, really good at anti-approach

if you approach samus with an aerial, you are either going to get up Bd out of shield, or wavedash back then down smashed or something like that

just play like a *****, and don't do normal standard falco things like SH aerials. She ***** SH aerials.

that's it.

btw, if you manage to grab her, you can forward throw her off and then edge guard with Bairs/Dairs, or do defensive Bairs/Dairs to force her to grab the ledge, then keep her in that bad position. So that simple 7 damage grab to F throw puts her in a very bad position.

 

[JPOBS]

if samus up B's you from a certain height, you can "laser" before you land, it doesn't stun the entire way to the ground, no laser comes out but it's like normal SHL laser landing lag. you have to avoid platforms on the way down because it kills the stun right before that height, but most samus players seem to avoid the platform too and fall through them.

cool. didnt know that. I'll try it out.

 

[Mew2King]

Yeah Mow my fox does that samus trick. When samus up Bs my fox, I always laser just before landing (whether or not the laser actually comes out doesn't really matter) then I run after samus and up smash her before she can shield. I thought I was the only one that knew that, guess not <_<.

 

[JPOBS]

all the secrets getting revealed!

I had forgotten how **** chop's laser game was. That man was something special.

 

[Mew2King]

Samus is all defense no offense. I remember Zanguzen beat every samus (I remember he beat Wes after PC lost to Wes cuz PC approached and Zang shot like 50934093 lasers) and Zanguzen beat hugs too. Just shoot 100000 lasers. Samus's approaches are ***

if you don't SH aerial at her much, you'll win

pretend there is a bubble around samus's body, and you aren't allowed to touch it more than once every 10+ seconds

 

[ShroudedOne]

I remember fighting my first good Samus. It seems really annoying, and really bad, until you realize that you don't REALLY have to approach her, cause she won't approach you. Then it gets easier.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@M2K: I have to do something besides shoot eventually. Do I just space Bair then....or what?

Not saying I necessarily will hard camp Samus but I will be keeping this in mind and if I end up having to camp Samus well at least they aren't common <.<

 

[Mew2King]

no man, just.... attack randomly, when she's not expecting it

u get one hit and get her either in the air, or near/off the edge, and it goes HEAVILY downhill from her.

that's why I said F throw is good. Only problem with F throw is sometimes samus will wavedash back and down tilt/smash you.

Bairs/Dairs to either hit her off or force her to sweet spot and grab the ledge. From that position she can't really do much. It's even worse than marth being in that position.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well I never figured out how to beat Samus' Fair onstage so do I just shoot that then keep her contained there or what?

Also do I shoot her Nair when she's airborne or do I CC it or do I try to get over it or what? That move's big....

 

[JPOBS]

I think bair beats her nair outright when she's above u

 

[Dr Peepee]

Does it really? Hm I'll have to check that out.

 

[Mew2King]

idk in my experience, when samus does a fair, she always up Bs right after (sometimes down smash)

imo light shield it? or maybe spot dodge??

imma guess light shield is best

full shield ull get shield-stabbed from underneath tho

 

[Mew2King]

Samus's Nair is HORRIBLE

I found out back in 2006 that Fox's full jump Nair goes through Samus's full jump nair

fox's nair beats samus's nair almost every time. Rarely even trades

her nair is not that great in priority tbh

 

[Dr Peepee]

A lot of them just shield after it and everything just stops so I dunno what to do. All I know is I can't beat that and then we sit there and I usually don't control her well.

Edit: Guess I'll test more vs her Nair then....

 

[Mew2King]

her nair sux **** priority wise <_<

i honestly just F throw samus's off and I do fine vs every samus ive played in that MU b4

 

[Dr Peepee]

Uhh alright then lol guess I'll try different stuff.

 

[Mew2King]

-F throw
-tons of lasers
-don't generic SH dair/nair approach every time like a newb

thats all u need to know

 

[strawhats]

PP going hard in the paint trying to get better at the samus MU. Hope you know what to do against ICs/pika as well.