PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[ph00tbag]

Hugs, no one was saying that Peepee should only do one thing from start to finish.

just play like a *****

that's it.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well, there's my foot in my mouth. Never mind, then.

 

[Divinokage]

Good thing no matter what people say about someone's style it doesn't matter. I don't think anyone wants to see someone play like a *****, it's boring.

 

[sad_day]

play to winnnnnnn

 

[ShroudedOne]

People who enter tournaments to win don't care about being flashy for the crowd. And they shouldn't have to.

 

[Divinokage]

People who enter tournaments to win don't care about being flashy for the crowd. And they shouldn't have to.

That's not true at all, there's plenty of people that do that.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I should restate that. I mean that people who enter tournaments to win shouldn't have to play flashy, but if they want to, that's their choice. But those who don't shouldn't be vilified.

 

[Sinji]

That's not true at all, there's plenty of people that do that.

I bet i know exactly who your talking about. lol

 

[HugS™]

I actually practiced with Zang before every Tristate tourny, he got me trained up pretty well. The guy still has it (even though he's 1000% oldschool).



And hey Hugs, I always wondered, but what did you think about playing me in general?

Lol Zhu, why would you call me HugS?

Anyway, depends on the era. Pre-Brawl I thought you were the kind of player that would clean up brackets for me, then I'd beat you for free since I was good at the matchup. So I felt that as long as I was careful, I wouldn't lose at all.

Then when I returned to the game, I looked at you as a big name that I needed to beat in order to re-establish myself as a threat. But at this point I didn't look at you as I did so many other players, where I thought I'd win if I returned to old form. I thought you were better than me even if I was back in shape, so I needed to actually be better than I had been before to beat you. And I practiced hard to do so.

After I re-established myself, I looked at you as an equal that could beat me so long as you didn't kill yourself mentally over playing me. Like, I'd think you were easy when you would already start hating the fact that you'd have to play me, but I knew that it was you defeating yourself rather than me beating you legit. When we'd have legit matches, I'd have a hard time adapting to your laser grab, laser shine, laser shine grab mix ups. I think WGF is the most legit match we've ever had, where you didn't really defeat yourself before playing me. So it went down as expected, close, evenly matched, back and forth, and anyone's game.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

I dunno. PP can really get his camp on once he starts losing

hey man, don't say that about my friend

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Lol Zhu, why would you call me HugS?

Anyway, depends on the era. Pre-Brawl I thought you were the kind of player that would clean up brackets for me, then I'd beat you for free since I was good at the matchup. So I felt that as long as I was careful, I wouldn't lose at all.

Then when I returned to the game, I looked at you as a big name that I needed to beat in order to re-establish myself as a threat. But at this point I didn't look at you as I did so many other players, where I thought I'd win if I returned to old form. I thought you were better than me even if I was back in shape, so I needed to actually be better than I had been before to beat you. And I practiced hard to do so.

After I re-established myself, I looked at you as an equal that could beat me so long as you didn't kill yourself mentally over playing me. Like, I'd think you were easy when you would already start hating the fact that you'd have to play me, but I knew that it was you defeating yourself rather than me beating you legit. When we'd have legit matches, I'd have a hard time adapting to your laser grab, laser shine, laser shine grab mix ups. I think WGF is the most legit match we've ever had, where you didn't really defeat yourself before playing me. So it went down as expected, close, evenly matched, back and forth, and anyone's game.

Hugs for the namesearch LOL. I'm pretty sure you don't normally read Falco boards but I guess you probably would've followed for a bit.





Thanks for the post, very cool read from your perspective. I remember thinking it was interesting that our set played out almost exactly how your set with Shroomed went (god damn that was probably one of the longest sets I've ever watched). A matchup we both disliked (at least from what I recall), lots of back and forth with repeat stages, and a weird comeback at the end.

Out of all the people I played you / Fly are the two that I consider wildcards (when I win at least). Thinking back, I still don't see any clear correlation as to why I randomly tooks sets off of you two. I don't recall having much difference in mentality, preparation, or other factors for the sets I won. It probably some mix of being trained up, you not being trained up, nerves (random), and luck with momentum (especially if I won the first match) but it was a really frustrating time not being able to pinpoint why I did better sometimes. I know many people adjust themselves by overcoming their weaknesses, but I've always focused on improving what I was good at. With you two I could never figure out exactly how to use my strengths, or consistently overcome my weaknesses. Something for me to keep thinking about.





and btw, I think you were the first good player outside Norcal I played (oc3) and that was some 5 years ago. Thanks =D

 

[Dr Peepee]

I dunno. PP can really get his camp on once he starts losing

Perspective, both time and match-related. It would be necessary here.

Stay hatin on that bird, baby

People who enter tournaments to win don't care about being flashy for the crowd. And they shouldn't have to.

Well, yes, technically that's true. Riding crowd momentum and getting that social support is pretty great though, so it can be worth having a more entertaining style for that payoff, if it's large enough.

 

[sad_day]

practice ur technical n00bs

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

PP, what is your mindset going into matches? How do you read opponents so well? Is there a particular way that you would encourage one to practice to gain that kind of reading level?

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP, what is your mindset going into matches? How do you read opponents so well? Is there a particular way that you would encourage one to practice to gain that kind of reading level?

Umm, since these are all huge questions I want go super hardcore into detail on all of them but maybe my answers will still be enough to be helpful. =)


Mindset going into matches: Constantly refresh myself on all kinds of tactics and matchup/player tidbits I will need in order to be successful(the stuff that I went over prior to the tournament). I tell myself if I stick to my strategy, then I will win, and I must focus my absolute hardest. I tell myself to ignore the crowd(and do so unless I get lots of momentum) and to have faith in abilities, because I have done so well before there is no reason I shouldn't do well again.
A lot of it is reinforcement to keep me from doubting myself/let anything get to me, and the rest is gameplay centered. In reality, I think about mostly the gameplay stuff and the emotional control is more subconscious, unless I'm feeling nervous before a big set.

I think my reading ability is actually somewhat shaky, but I play simply enough so I can usually understand why something is/is not working as long as I have time to think things through(usually comes from respawn platform time lol). The rest of my reads come from simple manipulation of situations, IE when I have gotten my opponent to sit in their shield until they feel safe/see a (possible) approach. At the end of the day, you have to somewhat simplify this complex game as well as possible to get these reads, I feel.


You learn to read well by firstly watching your opponent. But I don't mean looing at them and seeing what they're doing. I want you to look at that guy and when he jumps you need to ask yourself "why did he jump?" If you don't know then you better find out lol because that's either a habit you can exploit or a strategy that you may be unknowingly falling for(they can be the same type of thing but I like to think of them separately...solved vs unsolved strategies/reactions I guess).

You also have to understand that things your opponent do will be based on yourself, so in order to set up your reads, you need to play in such a way that forces your opponent to behave in a manner that you can observe/react to/punish. For example, if I Falco FH Bair falling Marth a lot, then I know he'll either start side B stalling more, swinging at me with an aerial, or airdodge(assuming no double jump for Marth). If I get the Bair punish a time or two, then most Marths will switch it up afterward. Then I get to observe their response, usually by waiting. From there I can determine the best counter to that specific situation and the ones thereafter. Not to mention, when you get punishes that well your opponent becomes more afraid of you in those situations at least, so you have to add that human factor into your head as well.

 

[Sinji]

practice ur technical n00bs

Lol. You make the game sound simple.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Umm, since these are all huge questions I want go super hardcore into detail on all of them but maybe my answers will still be enough to be helpful. =)


Mindset going into matches: Constantly refresh myself on all kinds of tactics and matchup/player tidbits I will need in order to be successful(the stuff that I went over prior to the tournament). I tell myself if I stick to my strategy, then I will win, and I must focus my absolute hardest. I tell myself to ignore the crowd(and do so unless I get lots of momentum) and to have faith in abilities, because I have done so well before there is no reason I shouldn't do well again.
A lot of it is reinforcement to keep me from doubting myself/let anything get to me, and the rest is gameplay centered. In reality, I think about mostly the gameplay stuff and the emotional control is more subconscious, unless I'm feeling nervous before a big set.

I think my reading ability is actually somewhat shaky, but I play simply enough so I can usually understand why something is/is not working as long as I have time to think things through(usually comes from respawn platform time lol). The rest of my reads come from simple manipulation of situations, IE when I have gotten my opponent to sit in their shield until they feel safe/see a (possible) approach. At the end of the day, you have to somewhat simplify this complex game as well as possible to get these reads, I feel.


You learn to read well by firstly watching your opponent. But I don't mean looing at them and seeing what they're doing. I want you to look at that guy and when he jumps you need to ask yourself "why did he jump?" If you don't know then you better find out lol because that's either a habit you can exploit or a strategy that you may be unknowingly falling for(they can be the same type of thing but I like to think of them separately...solved vs unsolved strategies/reactions I guess).

You also have to understand that things your opponent do will be based on yourself, so in order to set up your reads, you need to play in such a way that forces your opponent to behave in a manner that you can observe/react to/punish. For example, if I Falco FH Bair falling Marth a lot, then I know he'll either start side B stalling more, swinging at me with an aerial, or airdodge(assuming no double jump for Marth). If I get the Bair punish a time or two, then most Marths will switch it up afterward. Then I get to observe their response, usually by waiting. From there I can determine the best counter to that specific situation and the ones thereafter. Not to mention, when you get punishes that well your opponent becomes more afraid of you in those situations at least, so you have to add that human factor into your head as well.

Thank you so much bro! I appreciate it, and I will definitely try to improve my mindset. It seems like most of your skill comes from hard work and that's pretty admirable.

EDIT: Ok, one thing that's on my mind--how would you recommend leveling up? What's an efficient way to increase one's skill level PP?

 

[Strong Badam]

i'm late to the samus talk
but sitting back and laser spamming gives the opponent time & space (albeit less than against say Fox, whose lasers do nothing but damage [obv]) to develop a counter strategy. i usually have more success being mid aggressive with Falco, as in applying pressure I give my opponent less time and breathing room to do what they want. ofc laser to limit options and make your approach more solid, but i've never really enjoyed the notion of "never approach & spam lasers, you'll win."

assuming that the skill gap between Mew2King and Mango isn't 9001, a recent example of this concept is Mew2King vs. Hungrybox in comparison to Mango vs. Hungrybox. m2k's always been a very patient, intelligent laser camper but still doesn't always beat hungrybox, while Mango was constantly in his damn face and didn't let Hungrybox space his moves as well and 3-0'd him. of course it isn't 100% applicable to Falco because yea his lasers are more effective but you get my point.

 

[Van.]

The two sami I've played have not been much deterred by my standing under a platform and shooting.

 

[crush]

Thank you so much bro! I appreciate it, and I will definitely try to improve my mindset. It seems like most of your skill comes from hard work and that's pretty admirable.

EDIT: Ok, one thing that's on my mind--how would you recommend leveling up? What's an efficient way to increase one's skill level PP?

I usually level up at the old chateau so my offensive game is good, but sometimes I just use rare candies.
also if y'all haven't seen KDJ vs Darc from 2 weeks ago you should KDJ has a funny way of approaching the fox vs puff matchup.

 

[~Twitch~]

marth is gay.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You must have really good strategies or really bad opponents in order to play predictably and win...

What? I just don't do things like ledgedash into utilt for the reason that it catches people off guard. I dont know who you play against, but if you were to play against kels you would understand that everything is expected. Sound strategical decisions are not founded in "catching them off guard". If you do manage to catch them off guard, awesome, but i don't rely on it to win.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Thank you so much bro! I appreciate it, and I will definitely try to improve my mindset. It seems like most of your skill comes from hard work and that's pretty admirable.

EDIT: Ok, one thing that's on my mind--how would you recommend leveling up? What's an efficient way to increase one's skill level PP?

You're welcome. =)

Well, people learn in all different ways, so anything I say cannot be taken perfectly at face value.

Here's what I recommend though: a super-emphasis on basics, both smash and fighting game-related. I differentiate the two because people today seem pretty smash smart but not as smart in terms of how they can trick you or set their walls up or whatever their actual strategy is.

When focusing on smash basics, you might try to improve your technical consistency or learn how to combo more effectively. For fighting game smarts, you would want to learn how to effectively bait and punish, as well as approach and defend well. Movement is like some weird thing that sort of applies to both imo.

Very briefly, to bait someone you would want to feign an attack or that you are leaving an opening in your play and, when your opponent comes at you(aka takes the bait) then you get your punish. Varying your DD or WD'ing back OOS at the last second are two examples of baiting.

To approach, one must first know the holes in their opponent's game in order to attack and punish or act in such a way that can create a hole by attacking or moving aggressively.

To defend, one must also be able to identify the holes or habitual patterns in their opponent's offense and react(usually a few times in a row until a counterattack/reset to neutral opportunity presents itself) accordingly, sometimes several times in quick succession(such as when dealing with shield pressure).

Attacking and defending are pretty broad terms but if they require more explanation then I could give it a shot I suppose.

Does that help?

I usually level up at the old chateau so my offensive game is good, but sometimes I just use rare candies.
also if y'all haven't seen KDJ vs Darc from 2 weeks ago you should KDJ has a funny way of approaching the fox vs puff matchup.

I wonder if Darc could crouch under those grabs or KDJ's timing was just that beastly lol.

His movement game is so precise, but it needs refining for modern times. Still, he's quite an interesting player.




Edit @ Twitch: yyyyyuuuppp

 

[Rubyiris]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13375718&postcount=360 <- it's been a week since I posted this. Would really like some feedback. :\

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I've been putting off critiques because my laptop died and I like having music on when I do them.

I got a new one though so within a day or two I'll get to you man. =)

 

[SSBMLahti]

Peach is gay.

Well, yeah.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well, yeah.

I'm pretty sure she likes guys. =P

 

[SSBMLahti]

I'm pretty sure she likes guys. =P

There's a reason she's never put out to Mario or Luigi.

 

[Mogwai]

if samus up B's you from a certain height, you can "laser" before you land, it doesn't stun the entire way to the ground, no laser comes out but it's like normal SHL laser landing lag. you have to avoid platforms on the way down because it kills the stun right before that height, but most samus players seem to avoid the platform too and fall through them.

I just wiggle out with the control stick. feels a lot easier to shake out of a tumble for me than mashing b and it's more useful in other situations where like, you're tumbling past the edge and you wanna grab it (cause if you lasered, you'd just fall past the edge and die).

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Umm, since these are all huge questions I want go super hardcore into detail on all of them but maybe my answers will still be enough to be helpful. =)


Mindset going into matches: Constantly refresh myself on all kinds of tactics and matchup/player tidbits I will need in order to be successful(the stuff that I went over prior to the tournament). I tell myself if I stick to my strategy, then I will win, and I must focus my absolute hardest. I tell myself to ignore the crowd(and do so unless I get lots of momentum) and to have faith in abilities, because I have done so well before there is no reason I shouldn't do well again.
A lot of it is reinforcement to keep me from doubting myself/let anything get to me, and the rest is gameplay centered. In reality, I think about mostly the gameplay stuff and the emotional control is more subconscious, unless I'm feeling nervous before a big set.

I think my reading ability is actually somewhat shaky, but I play simply enough so I can usually understand why something is/is not working as long as I have time to think things through(usually comes from respawn platform time lol). The rest of my reads come from simple manipulation of situations, IE when I have gotten my opponent to sit in their shield until they feel safe/see a (possible) approach. At the end of the day, you have to somewhat simplify this complex game as well as possible to get these reads, I feel.


You learn to read well by firstly watching your opponent. But I don't mean looing at them and seeing what they're doing. I want you to look at that guy and when he jumps you need to ask yourself "why did he jump?" If you don't know then you better find out lol because that's either a habit you can exploit or a strategy that you may be unknowingly falling for(they can be the same type of thing but I like to think of them separately...solved vs unsolved strategies/reactions I guess).

You also have to understand that things your opponent do will be based on yourself, so in order to set up your reads, you need to play in such a way that forces your opponent to behave in a manner that you can observe/react to/punish. For example, if I Falco FH Bair falling Marth a lot, then I know he'll either start side B stalling more, swinging at me with an aerial, or airdodge(assuming no double jump for Marth). If I get the Bair punish a time or two, then most Marths will switch it up afterward. Then I get to observe their response, usually by waiting. From there I can determine the best counter to that specific situation and the ones thereafter. Not to mention, when you get punishes that well your opponent becomes more afraid of you in those situations at least, so you have to add that human factor into your head as well.

You're welcome. =)

Well, people learn in all different ways, so anything I say cannot be taken perfectly at face value.

Here's what I recommend though: a super-emphasis on basics, both smash and fighting game-related. I differentiate the two because people today seem pretty smash smart but not as smart in terms of how they can trick you or set their walls up or whatever their actual strategy is.

When focusing on smash basics, you might try to improve your technical consistency or learn how to combo more effectively. For fighting game smarts, you would want to learn how to effectively bait and punish, as well as approach and defend well. Movement is like some weird thing that sort of applies to both imo.

Very briefly, to bait someone you would want to feign an attack or that you are leaving an opening in your play and, when your opponent comes at you(aka takes the bait) then you get your punish. Varying your DD or WD'ing back OOS at the last second are two examples of baiting.

To approach, one must first know the holes in their opponent's game in order to attack and punish or act in such a way that can create a hole by attacking or moving aggressively.

To defend, one must also be able to identify the holes or habitual patterns in their opponent's offense and react(usually a few times in a row until a counterattack/reset to neutral opportunity presents itself) accordingly, sometimes several times in quick succession(such as when dealing with shield pressure).

Attacking and defending are pretty broad terms but if they require more explanation then I could give it a shot I suppose.

Does that help?

I really, realllllly liked these posts. Thanks for dishing out all that insight PP

And I quoted these behemoths so I could check back on this specific post when I need it loool

 

[Deleted member]

^ ****ing noob

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

<3 you too johnny

 

[Deleted member]

I just wiggle out with the control stick. feels a lot easier to shake out of a tumble for me than mashing b and it's more useful in other situations where like, you're tumbling past the edge and you wanna grab it (cause if you lasered, you'd just fall past the edge and die).

1. untumble gives you a chance to accidentally tap jump.
2. you don't have to mash. once you get the timing you can just press it once. mashing b is stil leasier.
3. why would you go off stage?

it just sounds like you haven't tested it. it's seriously good, try it.

 

[leffen]

Jumping isnt an issue, you just need to do it back and forth once to get out of the tumble. And if you cant do that without jumping then GLHF dash dancing.

 

[Van.]

There's a reason she's never put out to Mario or Luigi.

that they're half her height?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

mogwai, you dont have to break tumble to grab the edge. i agree with the laser thing, ive been using it for years since i saw chillin do it vs hugs. Whether u use wiggle or laser, the result is the same, laser just gives you a better output/input effort ratio

 

[Deleted member]

Jumping isnt an issue, you just need to do it back and forth once to get out of the tumble. And if you cant do that without jumping then GLHF dash dancing.

sure

or you could just tap b once

it's like strictly better

 

[Strong Badam]

the advantage of dash dancing to get out of tumble being that you can waveland afterward

lasering isn't a bad idea either & comparatively there are cases where either is better than the other.

 

[Jake13]

sure

or you could just tap b once

it's like strictly better

You can flick the control stick once like a pivot and get out of stun

It's like strictly preference

 

[Strong Badam]

doing so once does not cancel the tumble animation.